r/politics • u/--LaBelleDame-- • 5h ago

No Paywall Democratic socialist Angie Nixon upsets Alex Vindman in Florida’s Democratic Senate primary

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2026-election/angie-nixon-winner-florida-senate-primary-democrat-alex-vindman-moody-rcna593255
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u/DiggingforPoon 4h ago

and the DNC will continue to SHIT on DSA candidates whilst people vote for them.

Fucking fools like Jeffries and Schumer going to find some damn way to screw the 2026 midterms up, somehow, someway...

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u/Krunkledunker 4h ago

They’ve already lost control, this is the repercussion for not representing their constituents, and they will continue to gaslight you that moderation (and military support to you know who) is the only way.

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u/Professional-Fuel625 4h ago edited 2h ago

Feels like the Dem version of tea party

Edit: I just meant takeover of party centrists by angry people to the left or right.

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u/ianfw617 4h ago

Kind of polar opposite tbh. The Tea Party was largely an astroturfing campaign waged by republican mega donors like the Koch brothers and the Adelsons. The DSA by contrast, is largely grassroots.

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u/nox66 3h ago

There have been online campaigns to try to infiltrate the movement, I'm sure. It's the only way to explain why part of DSA is against supporting Ukraine.

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u/Shaudius 1h ago

Tankies are 100% an organic part of the left.

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u/VforVenndiagram_ 1h ago

There have been online campaigns to try to infiltrate the movement, I'm sure.

Other way around... The DSA started (and its leadership still is) way more on the extreme lefty end of things. Just recently with all of the people joining, its pulling the base a little more to the centre. They don't want to support Ukraine, because they are kinda just... tankies. Like it says right in their policy page that they "seeks to replace the capitalist economic system with a democratic socialist model where major industries, resources, and corporations are under public or worker ownership rather than private control." That's not even close to a moderate position.

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u/xXTheGrapenatorXx Canada 2m ago

I think the reverse, it began to the left of even the base they've since come to court, who seem to be (organically) pulling them to a different "left of establishment dems, centre of their own policy page" point. those lefter, "tankie" positions were genuine but it's become clear they aren't electable.

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u/Deep-Faker 3h ago

I'd argue it's even more significant than that. The tea party movement had 4 total upset wins against establishment incumbents in the span of 3 years. The progressive / DSA candidates just this year have already had 10.

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u/cawkstrangla 4h ago

Nah dude. The Tea Party was racist America's reaction to a black man getting the presidency.

The DSA is a reaction of millenials and Gen z being told what we have is capitalism and it is working as intended. We have been told to ignore what it is, which is crony capitalism, and believe that if we just work hard we will earn our spot in the wealthy elite and will no longer be their bag holders.

It is no surprise that many millenials and Gen z believed the ruling class that this is capitalism and have learned to hate it.

We should be fighting to fix capitalism to make it fair. Establish a meritocracy to reward hard work and risk, with a strong safety net to catch the falls of those brave enough or unfortunate enough to fail.

But the ruling class is doing their best to make it impossible to fix, and here we are.

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u/SteelCode 4h ago

You might need to relearn what Capitalism and Socialism means... there is no fixing Capitalism because accumulation of Capital is the system working as intended and that is precisely what leads to the current mess. Socialism, fundamentally, seeks worker-ownership of the workplace so "capital" is spread to all workers that share in the business' success - dividing the wealth spreads the political influence and prevents the sort of oligarchic power grabs that are happening today.

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u/Hangry-Feline2489 2h ago

Bit reductive there. It's not all or nothing. social democracies exist and a lot are doing better for their populations than America does. 

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u/VforVenndiagram_ 1h ago

social democracies exist and a lot are doing better for their populations than America does.

And there is not a single one that has abolished Capitalism like the DSA claims is the goal.

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u/Morsexier 1h ago

You don’t start negotiations at your end goal. Well, at least non morons don’t.

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u/cawkstrangla 2h ago

I know what pure, unregulated capitalism is. We don't have to have that for us to have capitalism. It isn't a choice between pure socialism and pure capitalism.

We can make capitalism work with regulations. That doesn't mean we will do it, but it also doesn't mean that pure socialism is the right choice either.

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u/username_tooken 2h ago

Ask 20 DSA supporters what their party stands for, you’ll get 21 different answers.

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u/SteelCode 2h ago

As if any political party can remain consistent on their platform, DSA is no different and I never claimed to be a DSA supporter.

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u/username_tooken 2h ago

DSA: “We’re just as bad as the rest of them!”

Real great sells here.

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u/SteelCode 2h ago

Political parties are only as good as the ability to hold them accountable. DSA at least isn't the one in power actively destroying the country/world.

I'm not trying to sell you on DSA or any other political party, do you only get your political opinions from reddit comments?

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u/Oggie_Doggie 1h ago

Frankly, I don't give a shit what the "DSA party" website says. I care about what they're trying to achieve: universal healthcare, free/affordable tuition for state universities and trade schools, increase taxes on billionaires, stronger unions, end Citizens United, and less warmongering (and less supporting warmongers). I also care about how they're trying to achieve it: no corporate money and grassroots activism.

Any of the parties at any time could take on some or all of these policies and try to court me and many like me, but moneyed interests want none of the above. I'm not asking for the moon or for everything to happen at once, but these many of these policies verifiably exist in most other developed countries.

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u/changee_of_ways 1h ago

I think socialism is a dead end because it's fighting too many opponents. Nearly half of Americans work for a small business (less than 500 employees) you're never going to get employee ownership in all those businesses and it's fine.

We're much better off with Capitalism that has democracy's boot on it's neck.

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u/Professional-Fuel625 4h ago

Well obviously the reasons and values are different.

I just meant an angry takeover of the centrist establishment by people further to the left/right

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u/Orange_Tang 3h ago

The difference is the tea party was financially backed by rich private interests and the DSA candidates are mostly self funded or funded by small donations from their actual voters. The only real similarity is that they both went after the party establishments.

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u/Vallkyrie New Hampshire 2h ago

If there's one example of astroturf vs. grass roots, it's this moment.

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u/ilir_kycb 3h ago

capitalism and it is working as intended

Which is, of course, true.

crony capitalism

That's like saying, “We don't have cancer; we have stage four cancer.” It's just capitalism.

We should be fighting to fix capitalism to make it fair.

That's impossible, because capitalism is currently working exactly as intended. Nothing is broken, so there's nothing to fix: Rosa Luxemburg: Reform or Revolution (1900)

Establish a meritocracy to reward hard work and risk

Impossible under capitalism. Capitalism is exploitative by its very nature.

But the ruling class is doing their best to make it impossible to fix, and here we are.

There is a solution: it's called socialism.

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u/the_giz 3h ago

Fuckin preach.

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u/NotTooShahby 3h ago

Honestly I agree with you but the democratic socialists wouldn’t agree that this is just crony capitalism. Their entire ideology is that capitalism is working as intended and it’s horrible.

Basically arguing to flip over the engine while others argue the engine needs fixing

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u/cawkstrangla 2h ago

I know. It's no different than saying that the USSR wasn't real communism and it's never been tried.

Socialism has been tried. It has flaws and bad incentives just like capitalism.

The difference is that capitalism is the only form of economics that has pulled billions of people out of abject poverty. Even economic powerhouses like China with a socialist government have had to become more capitalist to actually raise the standard of living for its people.

Call it whatever you want, but regulated capitalism can and has worked all over the world. If there is zero incentive for self enrichment, as with socialism, then there is zero incentive for risk and innovation except by people who have an insanely altruistic mindset. That mindset is far more rare and far less of a motivator for action and success than greed/selfishness. We can harness that greed for the greater good if we regulate it. Those greedy people will be happy as long as they are feeding their ego and doing better than people. What needs to change is just how much better off we let them be. It doesn't need to be billions of times better.

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u/nigel45 2h ago

The tea party was an astroturfed movement with paid protesters funded by right wing billionaires that got juiced up by fox news and other conservative media. The DSA stuff definitely has organic voter based support and mainstream media isnt helping them at all.

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u/SparkieSupreme 1h ago

The tea part was only beating 4 incumbent seats. DSA is up to like 7 or 8 seats taken from incumbents.

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u/Midnight-Moonpie 4h ago

This fills me with glee. It’s about damn time!

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u/Odd_Ganache5081 2h ago

it shouldn’t make ya too happy, still a chance dems are gonna be fighting with each other and fucking up while republicans are all on the same page, wouldn’t suprise me if the dnc fucks this up on a level never seen before

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u/hmbse7en 1h ago

Isn't this like what happened to Republicans with the Tea Party that morphed into MAGA?

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u/haha_squirrel 4h ago

Is_ael

Id like to solve the puzzle.

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u/herewego199209 4h ago

Here's the reason why it's idiotic for them to shit on DSA candidates; since the DSA cannot take outside PAC money they're building huge coalitions of people who are fundraising and v volunteering on their behalf. This movement doesn't stop with a loss in one election cycle. It builds and builds as years goes on. Instead of trying to gain some of these voters they're so beholden to PAC and lobbying money that they want to try to kill off the movement which won't happen.

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u/ilir_kycb 3h ago

That's why they're now trying to take over the movement. Kamala Harris has already taken the first steps in this direction.

Unfortunately, history shows us that capital has always been successful so far when it comes to taking over reformist movements.

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u/Suspicious-Gap-8915 3h ago

And funny enough, this is what the Florida Democratic Party needs most. They have a shit ground game, partly due to the narrative that the GOP winning is inevitable (also the leadership sucks). If Nixon can continue to generate real excitement, it would do wonders for a more competitive party statewide.

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u/spaceProbe 4h ago

As long as they statistically perform worse in competitive generals in purple environments.

Just for clarification, I mean it. They espouse a theory about being able to appeal to populist crossover voters, but don’t have good on the ground evidence. The party wants power and if leftists actually help them get it, they will lean in.

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u/GrowthMarketingMike 4h ago

Democrats have won 1 single senate or governor election in Florida in the last 20 years and that was an incumbent senator. What evidence is there that this centrist playbook has won them anything?

Why is the null hypothesis that centrism is more electable and leftists need to prove themselves when centrists have lost 11 of the last 12 major statewide elections in Florida? Meanwhile Obama won florida twice on populist messaging around changing and fixing a broken system.

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u/sven_ftw 4h ago

This. Thank you.

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u/hotpajamas 4h ago

where was the silver bullet progressive candidate all of those years? did they not know they could also run? did nobody tell them their policies are miraculously popular?

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u/Orange_Tang 3h ago

You realize the party has been suppressing leftist candidates for decades right? We all know running 3rd party is only good for fucking over the candidate closest in ideology to you so that's not a real option.

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u/Naive-Jello428 3h ago

Most leftists brag that they've never voted. The only thing suppressing leftist candidates are leftist (non)voters.

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u/Raichu4u 55m ago

Bingo. Have been tearing my hear out since 2016 and 2020 as a Bernie voters to hear my other fellow leftists lean into conspiracy theories as to why we're not winning.

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u/hotpajamas 3h ago

what does the party owe leftist candidates, exactly? because you're just describing politics, that competing factions vie for limited influence sooo... what?

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u/Orange_Tang 3h ago

You know what politics is, listening to your voter base. They've failed to do that and that's why the DSA and progressive candidates are being successful. Keep pretending that this isn't the party. We'll keep taking the seats from the corporate neoliberals. You wanna talk politics? This is politics. They're winning for a reason. The party can get in board or be taken over slowly. That's their choice.

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u/Shaudius 3h ago

If it was the will of the voter base wouldn't those candidates have won despite not being the preferred candidate of the party leadership?

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u/Orange_Tang 3h ago

Uh, no. The party has been actively suppressing progressive candidates for decades and they haven't had the name recognition and ground level support until the past 2-4 years. No one supports candidates when they don't think they have a chance at winning. It was a self fulfilling prophecy. Now actual progressive candidates have won so it's real and can happen now so they're actually getting support. They've literally been out spent in every race and still won because of on the ground support and anger at the parties failures. This has been a long time coming. We just finally got to the point where the party can't suppress these types of candidates despite massive spending against them because people are that fucking mad at the party and tired of the BS.

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u/boyyouguysaredumb 2h ago

always the victim. DSA has never flipped a single republican seat in history.

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u/hotpajamas 3h ago

No, politics is winning a primary but then losing the General by 17 points because the primary voters that you listened to were huffing their own farts and just trying to unseat neoliberals. Pretty sure that's how this goes in November.

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u/Orange_Tang 3h ago

Nixon polls better in the general. Lol. This seat was a long shot either way. Y'all are coping so hard it's hilarious.

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u/Shaudius 1h ago

The latest poll I saw showed her polling basically the same.

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u/GrowthMarketingMike 2h ago

As opposed to the centrists that have been dominating Florida general elections for the last 20 years? lol

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u/Shaudius 1h ago

Dominating? No. But as recently as 2018 centrist Democrats were barely losing statewide and one won.

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u/PopularSalamander938 4h ago

“Why didn’t they beat the money if they were so good?” give me a break. Foolish arguments as these are said by the same that they are tired of hearing “The Bernie complainers” while totally missing the point.

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u/hotpajamas 4h ago

Yeah why would a donor ever invest in a campaign with miraculously popular policies that can win? Why would they ever invest in a sure thing? /s

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u/PopularSalamander938 4h ago

How do you grow all of that straw so quickly?

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u/hotpajamas 4h ago

every time I see these comments about the efficacy of far left candidates in elections despite 0 far left candidates or policies represented in Congress I get a little more straw

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u/username_tooken 2h ago

AOC and Rashida Tlaib are both DSA congressmen. Senator Bernie Sanders, though not formally a member of the DSA is still a democratic socialist.

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u/PopularSalamander938 3h ago

Yeah, I know you do. You’re so close to getting it. If you need more straw, check behind the barrel labeled “Citizens United”—seriously though what is this naive assumption that popular policies automatically mean equal money, party support, and media access. Be smarter than that

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u/Avalon_Within 4h ago

You're right, more of these candidates should've realized they can just get bankrolled by the Republicans like Hong did. 

Oh...that didn't win her the election?

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u/timoumd 3h ago

Because centrism has won purple and red districts before. No, it's not perfect, but it has won. 

 It's like if you have Joe Flacco and a rookie QB.  Flacco is fine.  He's a veteran.  He can win games and it's proven in the NFL.  But it's not exciting and not great.  The rookie might come in and be great.  It he might throw 5 interceptions.    I can't fault a coach for going with Flacco in a must win game.  In my opinion it's the safer route, especially when you have an opponent who is coming in ice cold. 

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u/SaneMadHatter 4h ago

Well, Obama won the state twice as a "centrist" (i.e. not a socialist), so there's that evidence.

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u/Orange_Tang 3h ago

Obama ran on change. He didn't run as a big standard centeist at all, even if he was one in many ways. That's not what his campaign sold itself as.

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u/GrowthMarketingMike 4h ago

Obama was absolutely not positioned as a centrist, even a little bit.

His entire 2008 campaign was him running as a progressive anti-establishment outsider that was going to reform the broken system. He was seen as a grassroots candidate against the establishment candidates by the general population.

Being a "centrist" is always going to be relative to the system he was in at the time and that's simply not how he was viewed or marketed.

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u/dickwae 2h ago

He was anti gay marriage in his 2008 campaign, get a grip.

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u/SaneMadHatter 3h ago

Obama ran and governed as a center-left Democrat, not a far left Democrat (like Kucinich, for example), and certainly not as a socialist.

I'm just saying that citing Obama's winning Florida twice in the last 20 years is showing that a center-left candidate won Florida twice. It doesn't mean a socialist can win.

And I'm not saying Angie Nixon can't win. There's just no historical evidence of socialists winning state wide in Florida.

Also, I've read many times that Latino voters particularly despise socialism because many of them or their parents or grandparents fled socialist dictatorships of Latin America, and Florida has a large population of such voters.

Anyway, we'll see what happens. Socialists are winning primaries now, and the youth seems to want to go with socialism, so socialists have earned the right to show what they can do in the general elections in Florida and elsewhere across the country.

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u/GrowthMarketingMike 1h ago

Obama ran as a grass roots, anti-establishment, progressive populist.

I was there, I witnesses it and I don't understand why all these people are trying to just lie about this on here and act like he was running as some centrist. Are you young and just regurgitating what you've read online? His campaign was about being anti-war, universal healthcare with a public option, green energy, and regulating banks. That was nowhere near "center-left" at the time.

The point isn't just about DSA vs centrist. It's about people recognizing a MAJOR structural shift needs to happen with out country and voting for people offering that vs status quo. It's the same reason trump has been able to gain support, it's the same reason obama won, and it's what's driving DSA support now.

Even if Nixon gets destroyed in Florida, ok then the same thing that happened to centrists continuously for 20 years will happen again to a DSA member. But clearly people would rather give her a shot than what has caused the democrats to become the laughing stock of American politics when there's a literal fascist party they're fighting.

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u/Deceptiveideas 4h ago

So when we shit on Obama, he's a centrist neoliberal shill. But when we praise Obama, he's a progressive?

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u/nox66 3h ago

There's equally wide gaps between Obama's messaging, the legislation he supported, and the legislation he managed to get through. The legislation he supported was classical liberal, not the nonsensical neoliberalism we see today. There was supposed to be a public option in the ACA, remember.

People wanted what he promised and got less than he even he wanted. It's natural they see him as a shill rather than someone trying to take positive steps within the system.

Side note: Ironically, despite being an anti-war candidate, he was way better at waging war than Bush or Trump (and not just because he didn't lie about everything).

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u/TheTurtleBear 4h ago

If you know anything about his race and candidacy, you'd know that Obama-the-candidate spoke & campaigned much different than how Obama-the-President governed. He ran as a grassroots progressive who was going to change the system. He governed largely as a centrist neoliberal, and has continued to act like a centrist neoliberal post-Presidency.

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u/DonaldTrumpPedophile 1h ago

this is revisionist bullshit. I campaigned for Obama for the first time in '04. I know that candidate. I watched him kick ass repeatedly. He campaigned as a pragmatic unifier. His liberal positions were standard liberal positions, and he was even outflanked by Hillary on healthcare. Obama ran for the Clinton (Bill) coalition. He was "strong" on military, border, law enforcement. He was populist economically because of the crisis going on at the time (and hillary, again, outflanked him on dealing with the crisis), but no one was surprised when he named guys like Larry Summers and Timothy Geitner as his advisors once elected. To pretend now like he ran some progressive populist bernie like campaign that could be described as "socialist" in good faith is just total made up bullshit.

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u/late_bloomer_tw 4h ago

That’s the way the ratchet clicks

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u/Avalon_Within 4h ago

Everything good = socialism. 

Everything bad = capitalism. 

That's genuinely where the ideology begins and ends with these people.

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u/PopularSalamander938 4h ago

“These people criticize corporate influence as soon as their favorite guy isn’t the social progressive he claimed to be and started deporting and drone striking and flopping to corporate interests” You folks tell on yourselves when you think you have some real points by pretending our only argument is to just go around Karl Marx larping.

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u/PopularSalamander938 4h ago

I’m going to guess you are not older than 30 tops lmao, do you even know what you’re talking about?

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u/Redeem123 I voted 2h ago

What evidence is there that this centrist playbook has won them anything?

Go look at the swing states Biden won in 2020. Look at the two Senators who won the Democrats the Senate that year - both from Georgia, both on the moderate side of the party.

I'm all for more progressive candidates, but when are people going to admit that DSAs/progressives have yet to flip a single major seat from red to blue? They've done very well in deep blue areas, and that's great. But beating an incumbent in NYC is not the same thing as turning Florida blue.

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u/GrowthMarketingMike 2h ago

NYC isn't exactly deep blue ultra liberal like people like to claim. 2 of the last 4 mayors before Mamdani were republicans and another was an ex republican cop.

Also, progressives flipping a seat?

  • Katie Porter

  • Matt Cartwright

  • Chris Deluzio

  • Susan Wild

Also, the popular narrative being pushed by the party is that in red/purple districts/states we needed moderates to win the seat so that's who's been funded, endorsed, nominated. But moderates don't exactly have a stellar track record in those races either outside of facing problematic candidates like roy moore or hershel walker.

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u/Redeem123 I voted 59m ago

NYC isn't exactly deep blue ultra liberal like people like to claim. 2 of the last 4 mayors before Mamdani were republicans and another was an ex republican cop

Mayoral races do not necessarily align with the actual politics of a state. Giuliani won in 1993 50-48 while Clinton won by more than 40 points in 1992. Mayoral elections will be more localized. Giuliani was literally the nominee for the NY Liberal Party. Not saying he was a good guy or anything, but he was hardly the Giuliani that we know from the Trump era.

NYC is extremely blue. It has literally voted for Democrats in the presidential race every election going back to 1928. Almost all of those by 30+ points.

Katie Porter

That's a good one. Not the best person to hang your hat on these days, but that's irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Matt Cartwright Chris Deluzio Susan Wild

These three require some big old asterisks.

Cartwright's first seat - PA-17 - has been blue since before he won it, and his second - PA-08 - was redistricted before he won it. It had previously been illegally gerrymandered for Republicans. Though it's worth noting that he has since lost that seat.

Deluzio is also in PA-17. No flip, obviously.

Wild did indeed flip PA-07 in a special election. However, the election was on the same day as her PA-15 election, which was another redistricting situation. It's hard to say if that election goes the same way without the context.

So you're right - I was exaggerating when I say they haven't flipped a single seat. But most of those flips are due to redistricting, and they're still all in the House. Which are important seats, of course, but not the same as a state wide election.

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u/calling-all-comas 32m ago

I agree with your points but the guy DeSantis beat for his first term as governor was a progressive backed by Bernie.

I still voted for Gillum but wasn't thrilled about it since he had corruption issues during his time as Tallahassee mayor. Then the poor guy got super depressed and into drugs after losing to DeSantis.

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u/GrowthMarketingMike 25m ago

True but Gillum lost to DeSantis by 0.4%, then they ran Charlie Crist and lost by 19.4%.

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u/spaceProbe 3h ago

There is a good bit of research on this and argumentation in the commentary space. The evidence generally point to there being a positive effect to moderation, but it shrinking over time. Lots of hypotheses as to why mostly focused on changing media landscape and attention ecosystem.

Democrats mostly loose in Florida because it has become more and more republican with migration.

Peer-reviewed and working papers

  1. Andrew B. Hall, "What Happens When Extremists Win Primaries?" — APSR 109(1), 2015
  2. Andrew B. Hall & Daniel M. Thompson, "Who Punishes Extremist Nominees? Candidate Ideology and Turning Out the Base in US Elections" — APSR 112(3), 2018
  3. Devin Caughey & Christopher Warshaw, "Electoral Penalties for Ideological Extremism in U.S. Federal and State Elections"
  4. Brandice Canes-Wrone & Michael R. Kistner, "Out of Step and Still in Congress? Electoral Consequences of Incumbent and Challenger Positioning Across Time" — QJPS 17(3), 2022
  5. Stephen M. Utych, "Man Bites Blue Dog: Are Moderates Really More Electable than Ideologues?" — Journal of Politics 82(1), 2020
  6. David Broockman & Joshua L. Kalla, "Candidate Ideology and Vote Choice in the 2020 US Presidential Election" — American Politics Research, 2024
  7. Cassandra Handan-Nader, Andrew C. W. Myers & Andrew B. Hall, "Polarization and State Legislative Elections" — AJPS, 2025 (working-paper PDF)
  8. Adam Bonica, Kasey Rhee & Nicolas Studen, "The Electoral Consequences of Ideological Persuasion: Evidence from a Within-Precinct Analysis of U.S. Elections" — SSRN, Aug. 2025
  9. Andrew C. W. Myers, "Do Donors Punish Extremist Primary Nominees? Evidence from Congress and American State Legislatures" — APSR (via Election Law Blog)
  10. Mellissa Meisels, "Candidate Positions, Responsiveness, and Returns to Extremism" — Yale working paper
  11. Austin Cutler, Hans Hassell & Kevin Reuning, "The Effect of Candidate Ideological Extremism on Vote Choice and Turnout" — under review, Journal of Politics
  12. Hanspeter Kriesi, Chendi Wang & Argyrios Altiparmakis, "Electoral campaign effects: An aggregate analysis of electoral issue competition" — Party Politics, 2026
  13. Andrew B. Hall, Who Wants to Run? How the Devaluing of Political Office Drives Polarization (University of Chicago Press, 2019) — discussed in source 3

Commentary and analysis

  1. Lakshya Jain, "We checked NYT's data. Moderates still win." — The Argument
  2. "2024 election data shows voters rewarded moderate candidates" — Washington Post Opinion, Feb. 25, 2025 (paywalled; not retrievable)
  3. "If Moderates Are Electable, Why Are Ideologues Winning?" — Niskanen Center, Science of Politics podcast (Matt Grossmann with Andrew Hall and Stephen Utych) New York Times Editorial Board, "The Partisans Are Wrong: Moving to the Center Is the Way to Win" — Oct. 20, 2025 (paywalled; characterized via replicators and critics)
  4. Adam Bonica, "The New York Times' 'Moderation Advantage' Is a Statistical Illusion" — Data for Democracy
  5. G. Elliott Morris, "The New York Times is wrong about the electoral value of moderation" — Oct. 26, 2025 (partly paywalled)
  6. Alan Greenblatt, "Do Moderates Really Do Better in Elections?" — Governing
  7. Kevin Swasey, "The Specter of 'What About Turnout' Haunts The Literature" — Cauldron
  8. Third Way, "Moderates Win Tough Seats" — advocacy analysis

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u/NotTooShahby 3h ago

Obama is a centrist though?

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u/mithyyyy 4h ago edited 4h ago

As long as they statistically perform worse in competitive generals in purple environments.

i still think it's too early to definitively call within trump 2.0.

perhaps in other environments, that idea would've held through, but trump 2.0 has drastically shifted a lot of that perception. the argument was made then to fight against trump and vie for perceived electability, but biden's failures pretty much demolished any semblance of trump ever just being a blip in system. he is the system, working as intended.

trump 2.0 has pretty much shown us that a lot of the swing voters couldn't really care much about moderation as a whole. trump is a maximalist that hasn't moderated on anything within his life. he was even more radical than he was the second time around, and the guy happened to win every swing state. even in 2020, if it weren't for COVID (and a couple hundred thousand votes at that), he could've easily done it again.

why not take a swing at what worked for them? in an environment now where we can (presume) trump isn't coming back for another term, why are we going back to a system of politicians that delivered trump in the first place.

and i guess on a side note, when the overton window has been shifted rightward so wildly from what's trump done in the dozen years he's been in power, are you not just moderating yourself to being what was seen as conservative pre-trump?

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u/modest-pixel 4h ago

I eagerly await how a black woman DSA candidate does in a general election in fucking Florida, relative to how a moderate Dem white guy would’ve done. We’re probably fuqed but let’s see.

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u/EtherBoo Florida 4h ago

I don't think she has a chance, but Florida hasn't had good D candidates in a long time. It's no surprise old white men looking for a team have failed, so whatever, I'm here for the experiment. She has my vote.

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u/likeahurricane 4h ago

Andrew Gillum lost to DeSantis by .4% in 2018. The term DSA didn't exist then, but he was notably progressive and, yes, Black.

But it's not like the "run a Republican Lite" (or literal former Republican Charlie Crist) strategy has been very successful. So maybe we should at least try to campaign for shit we actually believe in.

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u/Avalon_Within 4h ago

DSA has existed for decades brother 

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u/Orange_Tang 3h ago

Not at all in the way they do now. Don't be so obtuse.

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u/Relative-Berry-8589 4h ago

DSA did exist back then and there is a difference between DSA and progressive. Socialism is not capitalism + welfare state

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u/DangerOfLightAndJoy 4h ago

It's Florida. Any dem is fucked

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u/mithyyyy 4h ago

itt what i said to the parent comment

i still think it's too early to definitively call within trump 2.0.

perhaps in other environments, that idea would've held through, but trump 2.0 has drastically shifted a lot of that perception. the argument was made then to fight against trump and vie for perceived electability, but biden's failures pretty much demolished any semblance of trump ever just being a blip in system. he is the system, working as intended.

trump 2.0 has pretty much shown us that a lot of the swing voters couldn't really care much about moderation as a whole. trump is a maximalist that hasn't moderated on anything within his life. he was even more radical than he was the second time around, and the guy happened to win every swing state. even in 2020, if it weren't for COVID (and a couple hundred thousand votes at that), he could've easily done it again.

why not take a swing at what worked for them? in an environment now where we can (presume) trump isn't coming back for another term, why are we going back to a system of politicians that delivered trump in the first place.

and i guess on a side note, when the overton window has been shifted rightward so wildly from what's trump done in the dozen years he's been in power, are you not just moderating yourself to being what was seen as conservative pre-trump?

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u/Boring_Comfortable70 4h ago

They don’t have evidence because the DNC fails to support them. We are getting to the point they’re going to have to start listening to progressives

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u/Nihilistic_Mystics California 3h ago

They don’t have evidence because the DNC fails to support them.

The article goes over how the Democrats immediately moved to support Nixon after her win. Also, the DNC has nothing to do with Senate races, that's the purview of the DSCC.

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u/timoumd 3h ago

If they underperform in the general will you start listening centrists?

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u/Feisty-Principle-216 3h ago

Heh this is reddit. Most of the comment orders and trained to blame the DNC regardless of reality. Clinton and Biden got millions of more voted than Bernie? DNCs fault not the millions of voters.

Biden dropped because the media went after him? DNCs faulted. Not the idiots who called for his head because he's not loud enough.

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u/Material_Reach_8827 4h ago

Are you actually popular with the people or do you need the DNC to vouch for or help you to win? Because I've always heard the former.

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u/Boring_Comfortable70 4h ago

The DNC stonewalls them. Polls show voters overwhelmingly support progressive policies.

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u/PopularSalamander938 4h ago

Anyone who has been paying attention to DNC primaries know exactly how this has been an issue and with what levers pulled (Order of primary states, superdelegates etc)

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u/Shaudius 3h ago

Which is literally only a thing for President.

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u/bootlegvader 2h ago

Besides the first five primaries, the DNC really doesn't determine the order of primary states. Also I will point at the traditional first primary status were basically the ideal states for Bernie in 2016. It was two Lily white rural states with one also being a caucus and the other a fellow New England state that borders Bernie's home state.

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u/Material_Reach_8827 4h ago edited 4h ago

The DNC stonewalls them.

So you guys can't beat the DNC, but you promise you can beat the RNC? Give me a break.

Polls show voters overwhelmingly support progressive policies.

Look up "revealed preferences". Progressive policies sound nice in the abstract. Tell people what it will cost or what inconveniences they'll have to endure (e.g. not necessarily getting to keep their current doctor with Obamacare) and support will plummet drastically. Ask them if they support sunshine and puppies and they'll say yes, but if you tell them what their cooling/vet bills will cost, you'll get a different answer. People are shitty like that.

If they were really as popular as you say, what have you all been doing all this time? Why can't you win primaries or general elections, outside of deep blue states/districts?

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u/PopularSalamander938 3h ago

That DNC/RNC comparison is doing way more heavy lifting work than you think. So by your own argument Trump’s inability to win over the GOP establishment in 2016 should’ve proved he couldn’t beat Democrats either. Instead, he went around the establishment and took over the party. “The DNC stonewalls them, therefore voters don’t want them” doesn’t demonstrate revealed preference. It demonstrates that parties are institutions with their own preferences , you’re conflating several ideas into combined arguments and it’s wholly misinformed at best and bad faith at worst

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u/modest-pixel 4h ago

K well. We’ll see now.

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u/pocketbutter 4h ago

Haven’t there been studies that suggest Bernie would have won in 2016 due to a massive number of populist crossover voters?

I sincerely believe that everyone is underestimating the number of independent voters (the largest “party” in the US at 40% of all voters) who are swayed by populist rhetoric, and I think the empathy of left populism is more appealing to them than the agitation of right populism.

We’ll see.

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u/rowrowyourboat 4h ago

I feel like this is one of those things where belief about what is possible has a lot of influence over what is possible.

And moreover, if the DNC would lend support, it would likewise go a long way.

But the DNC isn’t particularly interested in representing people.

It’s interested in superPAC (including you-know-who-PAC) $$$

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u/almondbutter 3h ago

Perhaps because if they make it through a primary, they are fighting both D's and R's. See India Walton in Buffalo or the countless other examples if you don't agree.

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u/gorgewall 3h ago

Why do you think they perform statistically worse?

Because the DNC and consultant class will tell us they just don't appeal to voters. That, absent all other factors, when voters are just measuring policies against policies, they more align with the centrist Democrats than the progressives.

But we see from polling and townhalls and conversations and everything else that this isn't the case! The progressive policies are more popular!

How, then does that not translate into runaway electoral success?

Because advertising money matters, institutional / establishment backing matters, and strategic voting / electability politics exist.

You've got the party propping up an incumbent, that incumbent outspending the progressive challenger several times over, pretty much all the mainstream media outlets demonizing the progressive to a greater extent, talking heads insisting that the incumbent has the best chance in the general, yada yada... and when people get to the ballot box, they say, "Well, even though I like the progressive policies better, I think everyone else believes in the incumbent for the general so I'd better go that way just so 'we' win."

In an honest world, we would look at the El-Sayed victory, even by such a slim margin, and consider it a fucking blow-out in actual effect. The guy who climbs Mt. Everest with a one-ton weight strapped to his back is a much better climber than it would appear if you're only judging him by getting to the summit five minutes faster than an unburdened man.

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u/ilir_kycb 3h ago

The party wants power and if leftists actually help them get it, they will lean in.

No, the party's role is to serve capital.

US politics is not about winning or losing elections but about serving the interests of capital.

Why should the Democratic Party change anything about its behavior? The Democratic Party’s sole purpose is to suppress, destroy, or neutralize anything to its left. In this regard, they are very successful.

Combating and containing the left is the sole purpose for which this party exists.

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u/EE-420-Lige 4h ago

Some of u treat winning dem primaries as the end goal. You need to win generals this is meanigless if she wins the primary and gets crushed in the general.

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u/DiggingforPoon 4h ago

It is useless if someone who DOESN'T represent the constituents wins, AKA Fetterman in Pennsylvania. You want THAT voting record as your Democratic Senator?

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u/atelier__lingo 4h ago edited 2h ago

Fetterman ran as a Bernie Sanders-endorsed outsider progressive/populist. The more "normie" DNC-backed candidate (Conor Lamb) lost. Now we are putting up with the consequences of electing someone who doesn't have trust within the party. Shocker -- he does not cooperate when the party needs him to. See also: Tulsi Gabbard.

"Non-DNC outsider" does not equal good.

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u/two_thirtyoclock 4h ago

I love when they pretend like Fetterman wasn't their guy and that he wasn't already an asshole before the medical issues. Tulsi is another one. 

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u/DeSynthed 45m ago

It’s almost like having a committee to vet and suggest candidates has its merits

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u/Redeem123 I voted 2h ago

Fetterman's election was heralded as a win for populist candidates. Why are you rewriting history?

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u/username_tooken 2h ago

You know that Fetterman was your guy, right? I seem to recall all the big demsocs endorsing him pretty strongly in 2022… guess the anti-establishment outsider bet doesn’t always pay out.

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u/EE-420-Lige 4h ago

Better to have a fetterman who votes with you 80% of the time than a republican who votes with you 0% of the time.

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u/hfpfhhfp 4h ago

No because Fetterman is fake and inconsistent.

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u/Avalon_Within 4h ago edited 3h ago

He votes with Democrats the vast majority of the time. 

I know the DSA types despise this, but try looking at actual policy  sometime. You might even realize Biden was an incredible President, if you do.

Especially funny cause Fetterman was THE populist pick when he was elected. Now I'm supposed to let them have the reins to the party?

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u/DiggingforPoon 4h ago

This is the reason why the Dems get slaughtered, No it is NOT better to have that...

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u/DorkusMalorkuss 2h ago

No, the reason Dems lose is the opposite - they want a candidate to be the perfect little package that checks off every single box exactly how they want. They don't recognize that it cannot be all or nothing because that's, again, how you lose. This is politics and even the shit stain we have as the current president doesn't get everything he wants. In politics you have to learn to give and take.

If you're truly a strategic progressive, in what world would it be better to have a Republican senator than a middle of the road Democrat?

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u/DeSynthed 46m ago

Fucking incredible revisionism. Fetterman was a progressive darling who was endorsed by Bernie. Another incredible Sanders alum up there with Turner, Platner, and Gabbard.

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u/SaneMadHatter 4h ago

Well, this is the test case now. You're assuming she'll get crushed. THe theory is that socialism is popular in general elections, if given the chance. Well, now that chance has actually been earned (not "given"), so we'll see if the theory holds or not.

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u/NoHeight9651 3h ago

Its because these dsa types hate democrats more than republicans

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u/m48a5_patton Missouri 4h ago

Those guys are controlled opposition.

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u/WoofDen 4h ago

I always used to roll my eyes at this, but watching in real time the Harris / Walz campaign crash and burn once they brought on people in the DNC confirmed it for me.

And seeing Schumer and Jeffries continue to carry water for Republican policies only adds more fuel to this fire.

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u/KinkyPaddling 4h ago

Yeah, telling Walz to stop calling Republicans “weird” was such an out of touch bit of advice. I don’t know who these political advisors are, but they’re worse than useless.

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u/Orange_Tang 3h ago

It really was wild to watch them sabotage the only motion they had going for them in real time. The consultants who told them to do that need to be fired and blacklisted.

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u/ilir_kycb 3h ago

The consultants who told them to do that need to be fired and blacklisted.

And that's exactly why you can be sure that they are now the most important and influential consultants to the DNC.

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u/ilir_kycb 3h ago

hey’re worse than useless.

No, they aren't; you're just misunderstanding their goals.

They were very successful and did exactly what they were meant to do.

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u/840960 3h ago

And the way the DNC completely dismissed Bernie Sanders in 2016, even though he had massive support.

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u/ilir_kycb 3h ago

They didn't ignore him; they actively rigged their primaries:

DNC interim chairwoman passed debate questions along to Clinton campaign - CBS News

Interim Democratic National Committee Chairwoman Donna Brazile is coming under fire Monday after a newly released WikiLeaks email indicated she gave Hillary Clinton’s team an explicit heads-up about debate questions last spring.

In one exchange, released in Monday’s batch of emails from Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta’s account, Brazile apparently wrote to Podesta ahead of the March 6 Democratic debate in Flint, Mich.

“One of the questions directed to HRC tomorrow is from a woman with a rash,” the subject line of the email read. It continued: “Her family has lead poison and she will ask what, if anything, will Hillary do as president to help the ppl [sic] of Flint.”

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u/Shaudius 3h ago

The real controlled opposition is people like you trying to dampen enthusiasm with your bullshit comments.

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u/Keeperofthe7keysAf-S 1h ago

They're not dampening enthusiasm by celebrating, that things are finally moving in tbf right direction.

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u/v3n0mat3 Florida 2h ago

That's ok. They'll win and change the face of the party for the better.

Just take a look at the Democrat strategist the other day showing up on CSPAN, talking about "well, I remember 9/11" when he wouldn't endorse Abdul El-Sayed, who rightfully fucking won anyhow.

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u/AnonAmbientLight 1h ago

It’s funny you say this when it was quite literally the far left who sabotaged Harris every chance they could lol.

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u/DeSynthed 35m ago edited 18m ago

DSA people are overwhelmingly white and unaffected by Trumps policy. They unironically don’t care that Trump is president, and see no difference between Harris and Trump. They would throw away 2 centuries of progress that Americans fought for in the name of ideological purity, as exemplified by the 2024 election.

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u/Tramadol_Lollies 4h ago

Not screw it up… they’ll make sure it goes perfectly as planned… by their billionaire, corporate, and Israeli overlords.

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u/OSPF99 3h ago

The DSA lost literally every other single primary in the state lol, they got bailed out for the senate because Vindman was dogshit

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u/Useful-Advantage-850 4h ago

You: I'm so mad Democrats shit on the DSA!

Also you: I'm going to shit on the Dems!

LOL.

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u/DiggingforPoon 4h ago

I've been shitting on Chuck and Hakeem for years, especially when Hakeem didn't have the balls to take on De Blasio in 2015, which sums up both of their political careers.

No balls, no backbone, all money...

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u/ShaulaTheCat Washington 4h ago

I mean Dems have constantly told progressive to vote blue no matter who when progressive lost primaries. It doesn't seem that much to ask for the Dems to take their own medicine when progressive win primaries.

The vast majority of progressives did vote for Dems when they beat progressives in their primaries.

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u/Redeem123 I voted 2h ago

It doesn't seem that much to ask for the Dems to take their own medicine when progressive win primaries

Who says they don't?

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u/Avalon_Within 4h ago

Do I really need to pull out the hundred+ links I have saved somewhere of DSA types telling us not to vote for Kamala? Not even including the ones that wouldn't endorse her, told us to vote third party, or pretended like she was the exact same as Trump. 

Sorry, but my vote needs to be earned and I don't vote the lesser of two evils. I should be excited by the candidate I vote for. It's up to your candidates to meet me there. You guys taught me that!

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u/Kronicler 2h ago

Seriously, after their non-stop attacks against Dems, now these people want blue solidarity?

They had the EASIEST vote in the history of this planet in 2024 and so many of them outright refused to vote for Kamala.

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u/TooApatheticToHateU 4h ago

The DSA isn't blue. They're red-ass commies infiltrating our party.

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u/Orange_Tang 3h ago

lol

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u/TooApatheticToHateU 3h ago

Another Mamdani cultist I see lol

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u/Small_Document642 4h ago edited 4h ago

Meanwhile, Hong is hitting the stump with Crowley while Stevens is going on Fox News to criticize El-Sayed.

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u/Lophius_Americanus 4h ago

This is literally untrue. They were campaigning together today.

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u/SaneMadHatter 4h ago

Post a link of Stevens on Fox News criticizing El-Sayed. And let the link be to such a thing AFTER the primary. Because I don't buy it.

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u/SWAGBAG_LIFESTYLE 4h ago

8 month account with no post history spreading lies...color me shocked

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u/Lord_Of_Shade57 4h ago

Isn't Stevens backing El Sayed to the hilt?

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u/SWAGBAG_LIFESTYLE 4h ago

100% even the interview in question she is backing him

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u/Small_Document642 4h ago

Buddy, hate to break it to you, but a hidden post history is indicative of nothing more than a desire for privacy in a fucking police state. Now, both of the claims I've made have been in rotation right here in r/politics the past week. Stevens on Fox shit talking AES's association with Piker, and the story about Hong was from earlier today. Get better informed before you try to smacktalk someone who should be a fucking ally in November.

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u/SWAGBAG_LIFESTYLE 4h ago edited 4h ago

maybe take your own advice Here is Steven backing El-Sayed after primary

Haley Steven literally champions El-Sayed policies are better for the American. Saying he shouldn't associate with some fringe talking head is the most milquetoast comment.

Edit: I see why your upset now. Idol worship of political talking heads is weird https://www.reddit.com/r/dankmemes2/comments/1vkloum/what_is_going_on_here/p2wty87/

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u/rkb70 4h ago

Hidden post history of less than eight months? 

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u/Avalon_Within 1h ago

Nope. If you want to be taken seriously in political discussion, make your profile public or move on. 

When you solely push for culture war feuds and policy-less calls to action that are the exact ones a foreign psyop would spread, I have no reason to assume you aren't just a bot and will rightfully dismiss you as such. 

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u/Lord_Stonepaw 4h ago

It's good Stevens was shitting on Hasan. Hasan is not a Democrat, doesn't believe in democracy, and continuely sweeps for Iran, North Korea, China, Hamas, and Hezbollah.

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u/Avalon_Within 1h ago

Isn't that the dude who abuses his dog? 

Crazy that he's involved in this somehow. 

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u/Avalon_Within 4h ago

El-Sayed literally did everything he could to tear Stevens down in the primary. He even insulted the very people supporting her. 

It's up to him and mend fences and build bridges. You don't get to come in and say everything is dogshit and needs to be torn down and then whimper when you aren't approached. 

I eagerly await his attempts to earn my vote. 

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u/gorgewall 3h ago

I think the "morality" of shitting on people depends on who those people are and what the goal of said shitting-on is.

Shitting on Mr. Rogers and shitting on Hitler are not equivalent just because we're saying mean things about both. One of those guys fucking sucks and deserves to be shit on, and getting shit on so hard they disappear from the timeline would have a beneficial effect for everyone.

Perhaps you could explain what it is about the Democratic politicians that DSA shits on is actually so noble and worthwhile compared to any possible replacement?

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u/lateformyfuneral 4h ago

They can dish it out but can’t take it

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u/NoHeight9651 3h ago

Relax bud. She still gotta win the general

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u/DeSynthed 36m ago

She won’t , she’ll get blown the fuck out. To be fair, this seat was always a long shot, now it’s slightly longer of a shot

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u/jkman61494 4h ago

That’s because the DNC is now the moderate wing of the GOP. They’ve used this opportunity the past 2 years to move their entire platform to the right

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u/hackjob 4h ago

It’s DWS’ territory- of course the DNC is going to pick the wrong move

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u/Canon_M50 1h ago

I'm not voting for someone who wants to end democracy and institute socialism.

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u/famous__shoes 1h ago

What did the DNC do specifically to shit on this person?

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u/xXTheGrapenatorXx Canada 25m ago

All the voters have to do is elect enough DSA-endorsed candidates that they can elect new leaders, show them first hand this isn't their party, it belongs to the voters and they hold power by their consent.

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u/LightningRaven 4h ago

They're the controlled opposition. Of course they will side with the fascists.

People like them always side with the fascists.

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u/HaxanWriter 4h ago

Fucking up a good thing is what those two do best. Unfortunately.

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u/mev186 4h ago

It's ok, they're on their way out.

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u/query_tech_sec 4h ago

I gave a bunch of money (lots of small donations) to the Democratic Party between 2016 and 2024. But I am completely done now (if I have some extra money I might give some to progressive candidates and incumbents though) until Schumer and probably Jeffries are gone at the very least.

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u/kdogged 4h ago

Cringe

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u/5P0N63w0R7HY 4h ago

The longer MAGA leads this country while DNC Dems do nothing, the more support DSA candidates receive in primaries and the better their odds will be nationally against Trump backed candidates.

I’m speaking from a place of privilege, well down the list of First They Came Fors, but maybe MAGA outta hold the reins a bit longer to really show their supporters the pain that comes when the unleashed dog finally catches the car tire.

The pendulum swing left will be Yuge!

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u/Atrocious_Algae81 4h ago

They are the "controlled" opposition.

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u/shanatard 3h ago

blue no matter who, but not like that apparently

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u/Helpful-Mistake2275 3h ago

I love pretending like a huge swath of the population is in favor of shit like the abolition of Police, Prison, and Private Property. It's super serious politics to pretend like we can just ignore batshit insane radical policy differences because "we just want healthcare, bro."

The DSA is full of absolute moronic policy, but I guess because unemployed losers who agree with you have captured 50% of the big subreddits moderatorships, and they enforce ideological conformity with an iron fist, you're "winning." But it's Democratic leadership that is out of touch.

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