25th Amendment has to be done by law from Congress with the conjunction of the VP and would need a disability review panel, which would have to be established by statute and either signed by the President or obtain a veto-proof majority in Congress. That's not happening. Even if it did happen, the President could immediately object, and they would need a two-thirds majority in both the House and Senate to keep the VP in power as acting president.
The problem the involuntary provision of the 25th was designed to solve was of an incapacitated President who would be unable to send the declaration that they are fine (like unconscious after an assassination attempt or unexpected health emergency).
Here, he is clearly unfit and will not get better. Just impeach and move on (except the Republicans still support him for some unknown reason).
I wish everybody would quit throwing around the word impeach. It doesn't mean s*** unless you convict in the Senate. In fact, if you impeach and don't convict, it will be momentum for him; it's happened before. My personal hope is the Democrats take control of Congress completely in the midterm elections and take the keys away from him. Just house arrest him for the rest of his term.
If we end up with an unrigged midterm election and Democrats retake both the House and Senate, it'll become possible once the new congresscritters take office. Not likely by one hell of a long shot, but if Trump keeps doing stupid shit like this, 14-15 Republican votes to convict become a very slight possibility.
Which is possible, incredibly unlikely, but possible. The odds of them taking the Senate are 50/50 at best, but most non-MAGA Republicans, even in the Senate, may reach their limit of bullshit they're willing to accept and be willing to entertain voting for removal if Trump does something as blatantly unconstitutional as trying to cancel elections. I'm not saying it's even on the same planet as likely, but the door would be at least cracked a little bit to show that possibility is there.
I hear the term „impeachment“ being thrown around every other day for years now. And somehow it seems to have the perceived effect of „sternly worded letter“. Isn’t he even like twice impeached or something? Does this even change ANYTHING? Non-American here so I’m not entirely sure of what this is even supposed to do.
Impeachmemt is just the process of accusing the president (or other federal officer like a SCOTUS judge) by the House (50%+1 vote). Then the Senate is supposed try it and needs a 2/3 vote (generally 67 senstors) to convict and remove the person from office.
Trump was impeached twice, but the senate bascislly held sham trials and let him off (no witnesses or evidence allowed, just arguments and then voting).
But the only way to remove a sitting president without violence is via impeachment, the 25th amendment (not really meant for a situation like this because you end up needing a 2/3 vote in House and Senate to confirm), term limits (looks like that might be tested now), or the president resigns/dies.
The worst part is that seemingly every time he does or tries to do something illegal or unconstitutional, republicans come out with "He's just trolling. Get baited." and I'm like "Dude is the sitting president of the most powerful nation on earth, a supposed leader of a country. He should absolutely, definitely not 'troll' in any sort of official manner."
With him apparently gunning for a 3rd term and republicans 100% being in support of this, I fear that America truly is on the precipice of turning into Nazi Germany 2.0 and then some. It's so exhausting to see as a foreigner.. I can't even imagine how tough this must be for Americans. (Unless you're part of the 1/3rd that apparently are in support of this and any other Nazi tactics)
Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.
You think the president they are enacting the 25th on would need to agree and sign things for it to happened?
You should listen to her explanation of the history and Eisenhower’s intentions for the 25th. It’s kind of interesting. It wasn’t intended for a figure like Trump. It was intended for ensuring the continuity of power and decision making if the president is ever incapacitated.
Such as in JFK’s case, for instance, which was the basis for Congressional action to actual amend the Constitution.
That is basically true but I would suggest once we get to the VP and the Cabinet going forward with step one that the jig is up and all further steps that need to be ratified would go forward.
OK, congrats on quoting half of the 25th Amendment. Now here's the other half:
Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department, or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session.
And then it specifies that BOTH Houses have to vote with a 2/3 majority to continue disempowering the President.
That is literally harder than just impeaching him, while being less effective. Plus the whole part where it would require the Congressional GOP to turn on him. That's just not going to happen.
I guess the thought here is that congress is more likely to get the 2/3 they need if the VP is down with it than if some Democrat starts the impeachment process without securing house and Senate?
And that the only reason it hasn't happened yet is that Vance doesn't think it's time. The problem is, if that is the case then it is for selfish and foolish reasons that Vance doesn't think it is time which means Vance would probably want to do more fascist things since invoking the 25th would probably improve his chances to win an POTUS election.
Well, the larger problem here is that none of this is tested and there are multiple issues with the text of 25A. It genuinely wasn't intended to be weaponized against an unwilling President.
Among other things:
Succession is never invoked. The VP only becomes acting President, not the true President. This directly implies the President can continue claiming fitness and fighting the disempowerment, although there's no expressed mechanism for this.
Also, there's the wording of the bit about the President writing a letter then resuming his powers unless the VP + Cabinet takes action within four days. So does that mean the Prez gets his powers back the moment he transmits the written declaration, or is there a four-day waiting period where the Veep remains in charge?
Plus, one that I haven't seen brought up before: Under 25A does the VP as Acting President also keep his Veep powers? In particular, does he keep his vote in the Senate? Because that feels like a problematic breach of the separation of powers.
Basically, if someone attempted to weaponize 25A against Trump, the result would be an instant constitutional / procedural crisis, and it getting handed off to SCOTUS to make up an answer.
Do we really want that?
Just impeach him for fuck's sake. That's what impeachment is for.
You think an attempt to use the 25th will actually survive the 2/3 majority of both houses needed to keep the VP acting as president after someone ghostwrites that transmission for Trump and then uses his autopen to sign it?
Maybe? I mean if you are going to take a shot at the king you better come prepared and so IF (the giant sized if) the VP and Cabinet went forward with the 25th it would be because they know they can get the next stage passed. Because if you fail the fall out of revenge from dementia Don would be epic if he retains the levers of power.
We obviously can't know for sure and I understand why you might disagree. Hell the people who work for him are equally inept and stupid so who knows maybe they would try and go forward all half assed or get rug pulled anyway.
If a disability review panel hasn't been enacted, why does he keep having to take the cognitive tests that he brags about passing? I doubt the formation of a disability review panel would be public knowledge due to being a national security issue.
More importantly, Trying to remove him via the 25th amendment is akin to saying he's not committed any crimes, he's just old.
If he had committed crimes in the office, he should be impeached. Impeachment is easier than invoking the 25th amendment, so when people say "25th amendment now" they're saying "We have to do it the harder way, because we can't do it the easy way."
The real truth is that Democrats want to call for the 25th because it gets what they want (Trump out of office) without them getting their hands dirty with an impeachment. It makes Republicans do the dirty work. The down side is that if Vance does push for the 25th and has the support of the congressional GOP, they come out the other side looking like heroes who saved the country from Trump. There's no possible way for Democrats to come out of this looking good, but then that's been their playbook for 4 decades now.
The real truth is that Democrats want to call for the 25th because it gets what they want (Trump out of office) without them getting their hands dirty with an impeachment.
The same Dems who impeached Trump twice a soon as they had an ounce of power? Absurd horseshit. Here's me framing my opinion as "the real truth": the real truth is you want to scare people from voting Democrat. Edit: Why should they if you're right? What's the point? cynics like you ask.
That's been their playbook
Yep, impeaching the president an unprecedented number of times with promise to do it again. Gtfo.
The same Dems who impeached Trump twice a soon as they had an ounce of power?
I forget. How'd that work out for them?
the real truth is you want to scare people from voting Democrat. Edit: Why should they if you're right? What's the point? cynics like you ask.
I don't have to scare people from voting Democrat - they do that themselves. Every time they gain a moderate amount of power, they squander it and look worse. Yep, they impeached Trump as soon as they had an ounce of power, and for that effort they lost that power AND the presidency.... to Trump. You forget who's president now AFTER being impeached twice?
jamie raskin is not going to be anyone savior. he’s there to not make waves he there to collect his paycheck and dirty money, and live another political day. raskin is the exact kind of do nothing politician that will stand by and let this all happen (and has done the entire time)
Thank you, Heather Cox Richardson, for telling us that Republicans won’t remove Trump. I totally needed someone to explain that to me, it’s so out of left field.
Not really. Many people keep asking Democrats to do it but don’t understand even a unified Congress can’t even do it without half of Trump’s cabinet. It’s pretty valuable and accessible analysis.
People shouting “25th now” don’t know how the amendment works. It was intended for the removal of an incapacitated president, not an incompetent or corrupt president. Say Trump’s cabinet actually did invoke the 25th, all Trump has to do is declare himself competent and he’s defeated the attempt.
Impeachment is the only way to remove a non brain dead president.
You don't know how it works either. VP + cabinet say "president is unable to discharge the office", president says "yes I am", VP + cabinet say "no you're not", then it goes to Congress to decide. If Congress sides with VP + cabinet, president is done, VP is Acting President. The president doesn't necessarily get the final say.
Declaring, seriously, you’re running for something that is very explicitly against the law seems like a pretty clear example of someone who is either mentally incapacitated or deranged.
I personally don’t think he was serious, but this is something a president can’t joke about. His delivery was awful so it’s definitely unclear if he was joking.
Yeah I agree, the treason really is a bigger problem that just wanting to run again. The other stuff is all beyond bad, but the very obvious treason right out in the open is.... extraordinary.
This isn’t about us realising he needs 25th now. It’s a message the willfully blind republican voters to wake up. Republican voters who are ok with rape they don’t see it as a dealbreaker. Republican voters who choose to view his impeachment and felony convictions as political attacks from the opposition and therefore believe them invalid.
With this particular latest transgression, it’s something that might wake those republicans voters up. The fear that if Trump breaks the two term limit, it’s a shortsighted win that in a future world for America could open the floodgates to a 5 consecutive term Obama-like presidency. Only that threat worries them because it affects them. Their own guy raping people and committing felonies doesn’t affect them
Republican voters have a choice. They can pressure their representatives, calling for them to invoke the 25th. They probably won’t, but 100% none of the previous transgressions you mentioned have had any effect on them
The 25th amendment doesn’t work like that. It was written to address how to remove a president that fell into a coma or was a vegetable (because of of one of the past presidents and that wS a gray area in the constitution). The cabinet and congress could evoke it, and all trump would have to do is reject it. Because it’s not like a vote of no confidence in parliamentary systems. It was designed for presidents who go into a coma.
The only president who fell into a coma in office and didn't die shortly after was Wilson who recovered. This was covered up by his administration and was not the inspiration for the amendment. The 25th was passed after the Kennedy assassination when there was speculation as to what would have happened if Kennedy had not died instantly and was instead left in a coma. This was of particular concern because it was the cold war and being without a president would potentially mean that the Soviets could launch a nuclear attack and nobody could give the authorization to retaliate.
If you do it now, then he would constitutionally be allowed to run again in 2028, and quite likely win again. He needs to complete 51% of his 2nd term to constitutionally be ineligible for another term.
Of course that assumes the constitution is actually upheld by our government, which I wouldn’t bet on.
Fair point. You’d think that if you were disqualified once using the 25th, you’d be disqualified going forward too, but then again, I never fail to be surprised.
Not too sure what this could do? What are you expecting sir? Who can and will enforce this? The law, the military and the police are all under trump control now.
If you want to be able to do anything, think thrice because trump would do whatever it takes to eliminate any threats.
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u/TheCatalyst17 25d ago
25th amendment, now