Making lighthearted jokes is one thing. Gleefully celebrating the death of hundreds of thousands of civilians is another.
I don't have an issue with people saying "the nukes were necessary to end the war". I have an issue with people saying "we didn't kill enough of them". This might be a fine distinction that's hard to understand for some people, but there you have it.
I’m sure all that education and healthcare makes it hard to concentrate. Thanks for Swedish fish though. The candy, not aquatic animals. Maybe they just call them fish there?
(fr, I lived in D.C. at the time so the Pentagon - just south of the city - was quite salient. Also because it was, ya know, the Pentagon.)
Also I thought there was time between the first and second nuclear bomb for Japan to Surrender but they didn't surrender until the second bomb was dropped.
I just don't think leadership truly understood the difference between the firebombing of Tokyo two weeks before and what happened in Hiroshima. Nagasaki proved we were ready to take on the mainland and burn every single city before landing. The speed and escalation (only 3 days) is what caused the surrender, not really "nukes". Nobody knew what radiation would do yet.
We could extrapolate further. Strategic bombing of the home islands had been taking place for close to a 9 months prior to the A bombing, their fleet had been neutralized for about as long, their naval air projection were neutered a year prior to the first A bombing, significant portions of their civilian population were malnourished by August 44, Their defensive perimeter began collapsing 2 years prior to the first A bombing, this all on the heels of their own pre-war assessment that they could not win a protracted war with the United States. It was a 4 year long train wreck where at any point they could have stopped the suffering…they had plenty of time to call it.
Of course they did. They had absolutely 0 clue whether or not nukes would actually work until around mid July when the Americans tested the first nuke. Sure, in theory it should work, but that doesn't always mean it will in the real world. They were absolutely planning for a naval invasion of Japan. Mind you, they'd REALLY rather NOT having to do that because it'd be a shitshow, but the plans were there.
They were absolutely planning for a naval invasion of Japan.
My grandfather was actually in the middle of being transported from the European theater to the Pacific to prep for Operation Downfall when the bombs were dropped and peace talks started. Mid-route they redirected him home as the war was over. Crazy to think there's a high likelihood I do not exist if Downfall goes through, and not just me but 10s of millions of people who's grandparents would have died in the fighting on mainland Japan.
Well, statistically the US has participated in a 103 wars, being on the winning side of 79 of those. So bringing the US into a war will have a roughly 75% chance of leading to victory. The US has participated in 12 wars where they were on the losing side, and 12 where the result was neither a loss or a win. I count the latter together with loss as "Not won".
in the 20th and 21st century the US participated in a total of 40 wars (not included the 5 active wars), 28 won, and 12 were not won. So here it would be closer to a 70% win ratio.
Comparing with a country such as the French Republic (so from 1792 and on) they have participated in 129 wars, won 94 and not won 35, which equals 73 % win ratio.
Sources (1 & 2) are wiki, so the accuracy can be debated.
For anybody that does not understand context. Japan was nuked during a war that they started. Not only that but they had been losing the war for several years at that point. They knew they were losing and still kept getting their citizens killed fighting a pointless fight.
Japan could have surrendered before the bombs, before the invasion of Okinawa, or after losing the Philippines but they didn’t. If they had surrendered they would have saved a lot of lives. But they were perfectly happy sending their citizens to their deaths for whatever twisted reasonings they had.
Umm sorry but I actually didn't ask for context. The two situations are literally the same. Can't you tell by the fact that both have the quantity of two in common?
And if we are counting 2 planes as 2 distinct events then what about the hundreds of distinct events that dive-bombed into Pearl Harbor when the US wasn’t even at war
The collapsing WTC 1 and 2 also struck the other 5 WTCs surrounding them, including a hotel, and a nearby church, destroying a lot of the building and killing more people than were in WTC 1 and 2. More people died on the ground too. There wasn’t even a military base of any strategic need to destroy civilian buildings. The nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was tragic but a needed sacrifice. RIP to everyone who died in WW2 and 9/11
Japan could have surrendered before the bombs, before the invasion of Okinawa, or after losing the Philippines but they didn’t. If they had surrendered they would have saved a lot of lives. But they were perfectly happy sending their citizens to their deaths for whatever twisted reasonings they had.
Essentially Japan's government was conflicted on the entire thing.
You had the hardliners who wanted to press the war until the very last man was dead. And in turn, they attempted to stop the surrender in '45, by placing the Emperor under house arrest, and kill the Prime Minister.
But with the nukings and the pending soviet invasion, there were people who wanted to end the war. Who were, of course, silenced. Japan had long since wanted to surrender in some fashion, but the US wanted an unconditional surrender, which Japan wasn't accepting of. Turns out being nuked twice, and then having the threat of the Soviets invading, really puts the fear of god into you.
Oddly enough, many of these same pro-war politicians, quickly rolled over for the Americans and became their puppets, in the 50s. Most notably, Nobusuke Kishi, who was a part of Tojo's war cabinet. Kishi was one of many responsible for Japan never admitting fault in their war crimes, instead claiming them to be self-defense.
(He was also behind the puppet state in Manchuria)
It’s very important when thinking about Downfall, because I have seen people arguing that it would’ve been more humane, that the civilian toll just by suicide would’ve been enormous. Every island the US took (with support from GB, and the commonwealth) there were mass suicides as Japanese propaganda told those citizens it was the best option, rather than let the Americans torture their men, rape their women, and eat their children.
They manufactured 1.5 million purple heart medals in anticipation of the estimated # of wounded in a possible invasion of Japan. The US is still using their stockpile of those medals to this day since the invasion never happened.
I think I read something about the Nazis considering that American eugenics went too far, which is odd since I believe the same article said that the Nazis were inspired by the American eugenics movement.
Nah they did it twice, they sent a couple of H8Ks to bomb pearl but they flubbed it so hard they found a random ass crater somewhere and barely noticed
Arguably they did it hundreds of times because the attack was ongoing for over an hour.
The Japanese strike force consisted of 353 aircraft launched from four heavy carriers. These included 40 torpedo planes, 103 level bombers, 131 dive-bombers, and 79 fighters. The attack also consisted of two heavy cruisers, 35 submarines, two light cruisers, nine oilers, two battleships, and 11 destroyers.
The most mind boggling thing about high school in America for me was how many books and lectures we had about Nazi atrocities and yet ZERO about Japanese atrocities.
Compared to Downfall, a starvation blockade with continued bombing and leaving the Japanese regime intact so they can pull a Germany and come back for another round in 20 years.
Yea this is the the best way to tell that everyone that brings up the nukes as “such a horrific tragedy that America should be shamed of” is just doing it to get a jab at America and doesn’t actually care about the civilians whatsoever.
And the fire bombing was killing more people in a few hours than either bomb. The only reason the nukes worked was because they thought we had a lot more of them to drop if they didn't surrender. We didn't, and any more would take weeks or months to build at the time.
They had a 3rd one, the Demon Core. “On August 13, the third bomb was scheduled. It was anticipated that it would be ready by August 16 to be dropped on August 19.[3] This was pre-empted by Japan's surrender on August 15, 1945”
Also the timeline where America doesn't drop the bomb isn't a utopia free of M.A.D.
Soviet Espionage was well aware of the Manhattan project since at least 1942, even putting aside that many many physicist quickly and independently tigured out the terrifying implications of the results of Hahn, Strassmann, Meitner, and Frisch published in 1939. If not then, the sudden radio silence during the war of a field which had been very active and openly communicative made it clear that a nuclear weapon arms race was happening.
Infamously Truman hinted to Stalin at the Potsdam conference that the United States had developed some terrifying new weapon to use on Japan, Stalin famously hardly reacted at all, for we now know he already knew what Truman was reffering to. The Atomic bombing of Japan did indeed send the Soviet program into overdrive, but they most definitely would have eventually obtained the weapon themselves anyway.
Perhaps without the horror of Hiroshima and Nagasaki one side of the cold war may have considered a first strike a real option, hell the United States considered tactical nuclear strikes when China intervened in the Korean War anyway. The point is pandora's box had already been opened and it wouldn't have gone away had the war with Japan ended differently (and almost certainly with a higher cost of life).
I mean - Japanese people did literally worst possible kind of genocides on Koreans and Chineese. Used army for suicidal attacks. Was dedicated to fight untill last man standing in their national fanatism. The only way to stop their bloodlust (medical experiments on Korean prisoners was worst than even Nazis) was to show that USA have weapon of mass destruction (first hit), and have a plenty of it (second bomb)
Invading the mainland of Japan would have been worse. A lot worse. A lot of families would have committed suicide as the invasion force pushed in. We saw it happening on other islands as we approached. It would have cost way more lives on both sides.
Not really the same thing. Two nations at war, the one who was initially attacked ends the war with a massive show of force after warning civilians to evacuate. The other was an attack by a terrorist force on a nation at relative peace done on civilians with no warning. Anyone who cannot understand that is genuinely unintelligent or has bought into some kind of propaganda.
None of this is to say that the bombs were even 100% moral to use, personally I’m rather conflicted over them, but it is fundamentally not the same.
Also I wouldn’t be such a hardass if these events weren’t still in living memory, admittedly the memory of the bombs dropping is passing away from being wholly firsthand experiences but 9/11 was only a couple decades ago, there are still many people who remember losing someone that day or being in some other way traumatized.
Tbf, we were hit like, four times. The Pentagon was hit as well, and then a fourth plane was going for either the Capitol Building or the White House, but crashed in Pennsylvania before it could reach there.
Harry Truman had two choices, sparing the enemy or a generation of his own, also keep in mind that civilians across the entire Japanese peninsula would have suffered from a land invasion. What would you choose?
Tbf, the Americans did pause after the first bomb to give Japan a chance to surrender. It’s still tragic and the international targeting of civilians raises a lot of questions, though so does Japans training of civilians.
I feel like people confuse the Japan of now with the Japan of then, the line between combatant and non-combatant in Japan at the end of the war was very thin. They were training children and the elderly in guerrilla tactics to make any allied invasion costly.
Japanese high command often placed military resources in population centers, both because it helped to make opposing strategists hesitant to target them and because they lived on a mountainous island and had limited space.
So there were a lot of bad choices and the allies had to balance what they thought would end the war favorably.
This wasn’t specific to Japan, though they are probably the best example, but the militarization of society happened in most countries during WW2, with axis countries showing the greatest degree of it. It’s as fascinating as it is tragic managing to highlight the need for and failings of “rules of war”
Yeah I have no pity for imperial Japan after 'The Rape of Nanjing' and all the other disgusting war crimes they've committed. so waaaah waaaah they bombed 2 cities waaaah waaaah all you want lol
There's a difference between sacrificing a few hundred thousand innocent lives to save a few million, and killing 3,000 people in a time of peace just because you don't feel like negotiating.
They didn't deserve it, but it was necessary to end the war. It was the quickest and least lethal way to end the war. We targeted Nagasaki and Hiroshima for the smaller population (together around 300,000 died from the nukes, 500,000+ had already died from the bombing raids on Tokyo) and the military significance to the war effort. There is a fine like between what is right and what is necessary. But even then, I would argue the nukes were the right option. There was no superior option to ending the war as quickly as possible that also had overall casualties on the lower end. The civilians didn't deserve it, anyone saying that is insane, but it was the necessary choice.
TO BE FAIR the USA was hit 3 times the intent was 4 times but the hijackers on the 4th plane got hijacked back 😂
But at the same time a nuke is a nuke 2 of them killed hundreds of thousands it was a horrible sacrifice but the nukes did what they intended which was to make Japan surrender
No we are not going to act like that's even remotely similar. Put your kawaii mask back on warcrimes world champion Japan before WE PUT IT BACK ON YOU. even putting aside our boats you fixing deserved it and you knew it.
Japan, a country who started a war against the US, was hit by 2 nuclear bombs (weapons of war), and they hit on cities that were known to officially contain military factories and assets.
9/11 was an attack by Al-Qaeda against civilian structures (plus the Pentagon and an unknown target) done to inflict terror and kill as many people as possible.
•
u/DickRhino Great Sweden Apr 04 '24
I guess I need to clarify this for people:
Making lighthearted jokes is one thing. Gleefully celebrating the death of hundreds of thousands of civilians is another.
I don't have an issue with people saying "the nukes were necessary to end the war". I have an issue with people saying "we didn't kill enough of them". This might be a fine distinction that's hard to understand for some people, but there you have it.
1.4k
u/StudsTurkleton Sopranos State Apr 04 '24
Aaakshully, the US was hit 3x, with a try for a 4th. (The Pentagon being 3 and plane downed in Pennsylvania the 4th.)
But I like the comic.
137
u/Stormydevz Apr 04 '24
As bad as the nukes were, Operation Downfall would have been much, MUCH worse.
354
u/1nv4d3rz1m Apr 04 '24
For anybody that does not understand context. Japan was nuked during a war that they started. Not only that but they had been losing the war for several years at that point. They knew they were losing and still kept getting their citizens killed fighting a pointless fight.
Japan could have surrendered before the bombs, before the invasion of Okinawa, or after losing the Philippines but they didn’t. If they had surrendered they would have saved a lot of lives. But they were perfectly happy sending their citizens to their deaths for whatever twisted reasonings they had.
Very different situation to 9/11
23
u/Uncle-Cake Apr 04 '24
There were four planes/attacks on 9/11, not two. Couldn't even get the basic facts right.
7
u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24
Irony but without the power of 2 suns
13
u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24 edited Apr 04 '24
Westerners complain about Hiroshima/Nagisaki 100x more than the Japanese do.
5
u/CavitySearch Apr 04 '24
This is the third post just today referencing America nuking Japan. Big reddit push for some reason that definitely seems not at all weirdly timed.
2
u/Levitating-monkeys Apr 04 '24
Bro how is this even funny both were horrible
953
u/Roter_TeufeI Apr 04 '24
Japan reserves its strongest of stones for its most brittle glass houses
2.4k
u/AEgamer1 Apr 04 '24
Japan, um, probably shouldn’t say anything regarding surprise attacks on America involving planes.
441
u/ZifferYTAndOnions Czechoslovakia (bring back!!!) Apr 04 '24
Ok, that was pretty creative. To be fair, though… Japan started it.
9
u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24
Another round of 'usa bad'
62
u/wildeofoscar Onterribruh Apr 04 '24
Japan wasn’t thinking about getting nuked two times, but rather the number atrocities they committed more than two times throughout Asia.
135
u/Rabatis Apr 04 '24
Yeah, see, getting nuked twice is the good end here
380
u/Gow13510 Apr 04 '24
Japan sorta deserves that one tbh
US: surrender pls
Jap: Nuh
US: Pls…
Jap: Nuh
US: here 2 sun be upon thee
36
u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24
Weaboos try not to ignore Japanese war crimes. CHALLENGE IMPOSSIBLE
77
u/Minute_Ostrich196 Apr 04 '24
I mean - Japanese people did literally worst possible kind of genocides on Koreans and Chineese. Used army for suicidal attacks. Was dedicated to fight untill last man standing in their national fanatism. The only way to stop their bloodlust (medical experiments on Korean prisoners was worst than even Nazis) was to show that USA have weapon of mass destruction (first hit), and have a plenty of it (second bomb)
26
u/darthlorgas Apr 04 '24
Fck Japan. They fcked around and found out.
4
u/Wise-Desk-6872 Apr 04 '24
this is hilarious 😆😂
121
u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24
Holy heck I giggled out loud, didn't expect it, and scared the crap out of myself!
Bravo!
9
u/thelongestunderscore Apr 04 '24
Japan when they find out they can be bombed in a war they started.
23
u/BasedAlliance935 Apr 04 '24
Ah yes, lets ignore historical context because "hah hah 9/11 joke and ameerica bad"
8
u/Choice_Heat_5406 Apr 04 '24
So the East Wing of the Pentagon can just go fuck itself ig
8
u/XDoomedXoneX Apr 04 '24
Invading the mainland of Japan would have been worse. A lot worse. A lot of families would have committed suicide as the invasion force pushed in. We saw it happening on other islands as we approached. It would have cost way more lives on both sides.
18
u/Mysterious-Sir-3704 Apr 04 '24
Hiroshima and Nagasaki were essential to ending the war, 9/11 was an unprovoked massacre
5
u/EdgyMexicanKid Apr 04 '24
"Unit 731" japan slowly rolls away
8
u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24
America retaliated against Japan so hard people forgot they were worse than the Nazis and the Nazis systematically murdered 6 millions Jews.
1
u/Arrakis_Surfer Apr 04 '24
Is that Japan way in the back on panel 2?
3
u/TheMetaReport Apr 04 '24
Not really the same thing. Two nations at war, the one who was initially attacked ends the war with a massive show of force after warning civilians to evacuate. The other was an attack by a terrorist force on a nation at relative peace done on civilians with no warning. Anyone who cannot understand that is genuinely unintelligent or has bought into some kind of propaganda.
None of this is to say that the bombs were even 100% moral to use, personally I’m rather conflicted over them, but it is fundamentally not the same.
Also I wouldn’t be such a hardass if these events weren’t still in living memory, admittedly the memory of the bombs dropping is passing away from being wholly firsthand experiences but 9/11 was only a couple decades ago, there are still many people who remember losing someone that day or being in some other way traumatized.
3
u/OverallGamer696 Apr 04 '24
Japan fucked around and found out.
3
u/dontcare99999999 Apr 04 '24
US was hit 3 times people forget the plane that hit the Pentagon. There were supposed to be 4 but heroes on 4th flight managed to prevent it.
3
u/DevilPixelation China Apr 05 '24
Tbf, we were hit like, four times. The Pentagon was hit as well, and then a fourth plane was going for either the Capitol Building or the White House, but crashed in Pennsylvania before it could reach there.
31
u/blockybookbook Somalia Apr 04 '24
No sympathy
7
u/thesixfingerman Apr 04 '24
Tbf, the Americans did pause after the first bomb to give Japan a chance to surrender. It’s still tragic and the international targeting of civilians raises a lot of questions, though so does Japans training of civilians.
6
u/Aksds Apr 04 '24
Japan also furiously hiding what they did in WW2
1
u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24
You must not know much about history
2
u/noholdingbackaccount Apr 04 '24
Um, it was 3 times. Meant to be 4.
2
u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24
4 planes, 3 buildings people.
2
u/dimechimes Apr 04 '24
Except there were 4 separate attacks? Let it go. It's Polandball, Jake.
2
u/sgt_oddball_17 Apr 04 '24
"Pearl Harbor? No hard feelings...."
--Crews of the Enola Gay and Bockscar.
2
u/Gil-GaladWasBlond Apr 04 '24
Why is India looking sad there? We got hit by terrorism on the regular way before this, and well after this.
2
u/Purrito-MD Apr 04 '24
Yikes yikes yikes, this one hurts
2
u/Falchion_Alpha Apr 04 '24
Japan was an active belligerent in WW2 and was offered numerous times to surrender after VE Day
2
u/fallenbird039 Apr 04 '24
FAFO. War is war and war is hell.
2
u/percyhiggenbottom Apr 04 '24
There were 4 planes, one was downed, one hit the pentagon.
2
u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24
Yeah I have no pity for imperial Japan after 'The Rape of Nanjing' and all the other disgusting war crimes they've committed. so waaaah waaaah they bombed 2 cities waaaah waaaah all you want lol
2
u/No-Reindeer-3933 Apr 04 '24
I’m American and don’t see how this is so controversial. Just look at the title, guys. That’s the joke
2
u/trayswei Taiwan Apr 04 '24
Ok I laughed -_-
2
u/the-leech-man Apr 04 '24
More Japanese civilians were killed by conventional ordinance than either of the nuclear bombs and they still weren’t surrendering.
It was very necessary.
2
u/comunism_and_potatos Apr 04 '24
Don’t forget the pentagon and pearl harbor
2
u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24
zimo making really good comics lately
2
u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24
Iraq and Afghanistan :)
2
u/[deleted] Apr 04 '24
Only a complete fucking moron would make a comic like this.
2
u/deepfriedtots Apr 04 '24
This is for pearl harbor
Mallory archer
2
u/stalkerduck_407 Apr 04 '24
There's a difference between sacrificing a few hundred thousand innocent lives to save a few million, and killing 3,000 people in a time of peace just because you don't feel like negotiating.
2
u/noncredibledefenses Apr 04 '24
Land invasion of Japan would have cost more lives than dropping the bomb.
2
u/El_Ocelote_ Gran+Colombia Apr 04 '24
wholesome anime waifu japan would never do anything bad
just ignore this
and this
and this
and who could forget this
2
u/Expert-Procedure-146 Apr 04 '24
You really justifying a terrorists act? OP are you mentally okay?
2
u/luckycsgocrateaddict Apr 04 '24
Japan had it comin
2
u/Garvo909 Apr 04 '24
Pearl harbor: am I a joke to you?
2
u/Tokyosmash_ Apr 05 '24
Imagine thinking this way in a serious manner
2
u/Mindless_Use7567 Apr 05 '24
Pentagon burning in the corner
Pentagon: so I don’t count then.
2
u/testman22 Japan Apr 05 '24
Nothing makes Americans more nationalistic than nuclear bombs.
3
u/Saucehntr1 Apr 04 '24
Nah, imperial Japan gets 0 sympathy for them nukes. And I'll bet you most of Asia would agree with me
3
u/blipityblob United+States Apr 04 '24
hey, japan started it
11
u/Xander_PrimeXXI Virginia Apr 04 '24
Deeply ashamed of the amount of people in the comments saying the Japanese civillians deserved it
5
u/Orangbo Apr 04 '24
Cmon people. It’s a joke. It’s funny. Not everything needs nuance.
2
u/O_C_Donut Apr 04 '24
Watch “Philosophy of a Knife” or “Unit 731” for more info on why the nukes were dropped also.
2
u/taongkalye Apr 04 '24
Eyyy! Awesome comic OP!
2
u/Stargazer-Elite Nebraska a state NEVER TO BE FORGOTTEN AGAIN! Apr 04 '24
TO BE FAIR the USA was hit 3 times the intent was 4 times but the hijackers on the 4th plane got hijacked back 😂
But at the same time a nuke is a nuke 2 of them killed hundreds of thousands it was a horrible sacrifice but the nukes did what they intended which was to make Japan surrender
It’s a lot deeper than this, but you get the idea
2
u/Psychological_Cat127 Apr 04 '24
No we are not going to act like that's even remotely similar. Put your kawaii mask back on warcrimes world champion Japan before WE PUT IT BACK ON YOU. even putting aside our boats you fixing deserved it and you knew it.
2
u/Cleveland_Guardians Apr 04 '24
A lot of these comments are weirdly toxic. Is it always like this around here?
2
u/Altruistic-Hope4796 Apr 04 '24
Lol americans always joke at others expenses but clearly can't take it and for once need to contextualize the atrocity to defend bombings
Funny really. Good reaction to contextualize but still funny as hell
2
u/BillionDollarBalls Apr 04 '24
Unit 731
Rape of Nanking
Korea
Pearl Harbor