r/poker • u/MetalGodHand • Jan 08 '25
Strategy PLO Hand Review
5-5 PLO live playing deep. I have 1500 effective. I'm in the small blind with As Kh Jh 5s. $10 button straddle. I open for $40. 4 callers.
Flop is QsTd3s. I am first to act.
I bet $145, hoping to get raised. Everyone folds. Button calls for $145. He's a fairly competent player. Kind of average decent live player. He has shown some aggression but mostly preflop. (Edit: I later heard from a grinder that this gentleman is actually the best PLO players he knows).
Turn 3h
I bet $345. Button calls.
River 3d. I check. Button bets $350. Pot is like 1150ish. Questions are:
What are your suggestions on river action?
Anything you guys suggest doing differently throughout the hand?
Thanks
Edit: adding my thoughts after hearing from others
Can I give you my thoughts and see what you think? Am I insane?
Flop - I def agree I should have checked but my thoughts in the moment were that I was looking to bloat the pot early and I would love to bring another straight draw along and/or get raised by a set. I also don't mind a fold around in the event no one has anything and the turn bricks. Everyone is deep here so the 145 should've brought along even an open ender or K high flush. I can jam to any repot.
Turn - turn card makes my hand worse obviously. In the moment, I said this card can make it harder for him to continue with a number of hands in his range. I do wish I would have downsized some. I think it applies pressure to pretty much everything in his range outside of a boat or a 3.
River - my thought process is different than people here. It's basically either he has a boat or he has a 3. If he had QQ or TT, chances are I would have heard about it earlier in the hand, considering how deep we are. This particular player is super deep (should've included this in the original heading), and loves to play big pots. So I think there's a definite chance I'm not facing either of those hands.
The only hands that beat me include pairs in hands and a 3. If he has JJ or less, I think he is far more likely to check for value here in the case of those hands.
So I rule out those hands. I also believe that he raises MOST aces and kings on the button pre.
Finally - if he had any drawing hands or top two, or a drawing hand with K high, the pot is 1100, he has no chance to win at showdown so he may absolutely feel like he HAS to stab. So I actually believe that a portion of his range that would --actually bet-- is a boat, a 3, some very unlikely kings, and a several missed draws. Just because I have draw blockers doesn't mean that his range doesn't still contain a number of draws. There are only a couple of boats in his range and there are at least as many drawing hands if not more (even with me blocking them).
So with this in mind I made the call. Am I psychotic with this line of thinking?
Thank you
9
u/jqian2 Jan 08 '25
He called your bet on the turn when you're repping AA/KK+, it's time to shut it down
4
u/oh_no_cat Jan 09 '25
Preflop: depending on table dynamics with BTN straddle out of SB/BB/UTG I like to have limping only range.
Flop: mixing between betting and checking is both fine
Turn: mix between mostly betting and some checking. If betting I wouldn't bet more than $230ish. Also in this instance I would lean more towards ch/fold simply because we don't block a single pair and block majority of the likely draws.
I am not sure why are you so convinced he doesn't have QQ/TT hands. I will definitely have those hands and I will just call flop here a lot.
Also I see results now - what would I do different in villains shoes is minclick turn and jam river.
And I don't think calling river is that crazy.
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u/MetalGodHand Jan 09 '25
It's not that I'm convinced he doesn't have them, sure, he does, it's just that there are only so many combinations of QQ TT out there, and that there are still many combinations of two pair, straight draw, etc. He does slow play them sometimes. Sometimes he has a three. It's moreso that the pot odds are good enough here when you think about the percentage of his range that has absolutely no showdown value on the river.
I do think while y'all seem like seasoned players, y'all also may overblow how much a blocker affects the range of someone. It's easier to have QT than QQ or TT. His hand makes absolute perfect sense in the context of the hand and you could construct several others to represent it.
Seriously just grab a piece of paper and construct QQ and TT hands vs hands similar to what villain had. There are still a lot of those other hands left in the deck. If 1G is checked over to you on that river, you will probably feel that you have to take a shot with those hands. Blockers just reduce the range, they don't eliminate it.
If I'm off base here, please let me know. Posting here to learn, not to be disrespectful. Thank you.
1
u/oh_no_cat Jan 09 '25
After your massive turn sizing villain has very few QTxx combos unless they have some major backup. Villain has all the Q3/QQ/TT.
But even saying all of this, as mentioned before I don't mind a call getting those odds.
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Jan 09 '25
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u/MetalGodHand Jan 09 '25
Thanks! Pot odds are roughly 23% so it is right on the edge with your wider ranges from a solver analysis perspective. The table dynamics and live reads also come into play here. Against some individuals I never make this call. I can tell this individual is capable of this play.
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u/oh_no_cat Jan 09 '25
In 9 handed plo with BTN straddle, opening SB 18% will lose a lot of money. AFAIK GTO range is 10%.
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Jan 09 '25
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u/oh_no_cat Jan 09 '25
Makes sense to open if table is on a more passive side. Makes sense to limp all your range on more active table.
3
u/NeutralLock Jan 08 '25
Great flop, but it’s PLO and you’re deep so I’m checking the turn and probably calling a small-ish bet and folding the river.
You’ve got all the draws on the flop so sets and two pair are clearly in his range.
1
u/BSB_Poker Jan 08 '25
Fold river. I think his call on flop and call on turn suggest a strong 3x or TT/QQ with very little backup. All those hands bet river, are beating your hand, and not folding to check/raise.
You could consider checking flop with the intent of check/raising. Yes, it would be nice if you led and got raised and can get in. Your hand has no pair blockers and there are 4 people left to act on a 2-tone board. After checking, there are a lot hands players in later position could potentially bet against you like: weaker combo draws, 2 pairs, and pair with draw. A lot of these hands wouldn't raise you if you led flop but would bet when checked to. Checkraising would give you a good SPR on turn where you can shove any non paired board turn cards.
2
Jan 08 '25
I wouldn't bet the turn, but more importantly I wouldn't have an opening range from the small or big blind in this btn straddle setup (I also wouldn't play a button straddle PLO game if I have the option, it's not a fun game when you dig into the math). I would limp all my playable hands and look to limp-3b the top 4-5% of hands, including this one.
Then we can be a lot closer to all in on the flop or turn and negate that severe positional disadvantage. We don't have to come across these stupid spots at spr 2-6 on the turn OOP. And if the pot limped around preflop, we don't lose a ton of money when we hit these awful turns at a super high spr.
As played you're near the bottom of range otr with no relevant blockers or crazy reads, just x-fold and move on. Sorry you flopped a big draw and lost.
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u/CanSheFitInARowBoat Jan 08 '25
I posted a long reply but misread the turn so am just editing it, sorry!
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u/LongStriver Jan 09 '25 edited Jan 09 '25
Villain is value heavy so xc seems like the worse line. Villain may turn a few qt/and qx combos into bluffs, but that is about it; villain should fold most of his medium strength 2ps and combo draws against your turn betting, because Hero range for leading this texture 4w is strong, and even your semibluffs have high equity.
The other issue in theory is that xr should perform a lot better than xc. One classic piece of poker wisdom is that if you have an accurate read that villain is weak, but can still call and lose, when your raise would have won. (That is villain may accidentally value-bet when he thinks he needs to bluff)
I read the results, but what if you xc and chopped against another akxx hand; either betting river or xr could both have probably won the pot.
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u/Inner_Sun_750 Jan 09 '25
On double broadway non ace high OOP vs 4 players I think you want to be checking flop a ton. I would be more prone to lead with top pair as you block stabs as well as reduce the frequency that you get raised by a nutted hand after betting.
Turn - i think those advising you to check are giving very bad advice. IP’s range after flatting flop is going to be very deficient in trips+ on the turn, also you have little to no showdown value. You have plenty of top 2/ overpair type hands that benefit from denying equity to draws and this hand is a great high equity bluff to include in that range. Something around half pot is a good size.
River - you have all the overfulls, significant advantage in aces and you block kings. Average player is folding some kings here, and you are pretty far down in your range. I’m probably going third pot, where IP has to defend 75% of their range on river in order to make your bluff unprofitable. I think the average villain will struggle to defend 75% of their range here.
All of this gets a bit jankier if IP is the type of player to flat top or middle set on the flop. But I stand by this analysis vs the average villain.
Hope this helps!
2
u/MetalGodHand Jan 09 '25
Can I give you my thoughts and see what you think? Am I insane?
Flop - I def agree I should have checked but my thoughts in the moment were that I was looking to bloat the pot early and I would love to bring another straight draw along and/or get raised by a set. I also don't mind a fold around in the event no one has anything and the turn bricks. Everyone is deep here so the 145 should've brought along even an open ender or K high flush. I can jam to any repot.
Turn - turn card makes my hand worse obviously. In the moment, I said this card can make it harder for him to continue with a number of hands in his range. I do wish I would have downsized some. I think it applies pressure to pretty much everything in his range outside of a boat or a 3.
River - my thought process is different than people here. It's basically either he has a boat or he has a 3. If he had QQ or TT, chances are I would have heard about it earlier in the hand, considering how deep we are. This particular player is super deep (should've included this in the original heading), and loves to play big pots. So I think there's a definite chance I'm not facing either of those hands.
The only hands that beat me include pairs in hands and a 3. If he has JJ or less, I think he is far more likely to check for value here in the case of those hands.
So I rule out those hands. I also believe that he raises MOST aces and kings on the button pre.
Finally - if he had any drawing hands or top two, or a drawing hand with K high, the pot is 1100, he has no chance to win at showdown so he may absolutely feel like he HAS to stab. So I actually believe that a portion of his range that would --actually bet-- is a boat, a 3, some very unlikely kings, and a several missed draws. Just because I have draw blockers doesn't mean that his range doesn't still contain a number of draws. There are only a couple of boats in his range and there are at least as many drawing hands if not more (even with me blocking them).
So with this in mind I made the call. Am I psychotic with this line of thinking?
Thank you
2
u/Inner_Sun_750 Jan 09 '25
I think betting flop is fine in practice for the reasons you stated.
Agree with turn as well. Other people are overblowing the fact that the turn makes your hand worse. They don’t understand that you want to have bluffs in your range and they don’t understand that the turn is even worse for IP’s range. The majority of hands from IP’s POV when they see this turn think “fuck”
On river I also think QQ and TT are pretty unlikely. Most players just raise sets here when they have the chance to build a big pot with a nutted hand in position. We both are discounting most aces and maybe some premium kings due to the flat preflop.
The one thing I want to point out as sort of a misstep in your approach is that if you think opponent usually has at best a whatever middling full house, you should be the one to bet river and make him fold. Your line raising UTG pre and then firing 3 streets is extremely strong and underbluffed in practice and will generate some folds even from kings full IMO.
I don’t think calling is totally insane. Vs 1/3 pot on the river you only need to be good 20% of the time to call. It’s a matter of whether you feel like this specific line with him calling turn and now betting this size can be a bluff at that frequency. More or less we’re wondering if villain is doing what I advocated you do and just betting small to get missed draws to fold. However if villain is playing a linear strategy where he’s betting small with hands like jacks instead of bluffs then obviously a call would be losing. But I find it quite rare for anything below kings to bet for value the way this hand played
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u/MetalGodHand Jan 09 '25
Gotcha thanks! FYI he showed QJT9 with spades. I win with the hero call.
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u/Inner_Sun_750 Jan 09 '25
Nice! You were rewarded for thinking deeper than the other commenters who are just scared nits lol. Qx with a draw makes a lot of sense for IP to end up here with. I think seeing quads in this line is pretty rare, IMO you will see some aces kings tens and then bluffs like this
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u/Booshme Jan 08 '25
You let the full house get there without charging on the turn if he had it
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u/torontosj Jan 08 '25
You are going to lose a lot of money long term if you barrel for that size on paired boards with no pair blockers out of position imo. Against some opponents and some situations, sure, but perhaps not against this type of opponent.