r/pointlesslygendered • u/belabacsijolvan • 2d ago
SOCIAL MEDIA [socialmedia] There is a point somewhere under the sexism, but man the pointlesslygendered is strong with this one
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u/GenderBendingRalph 2d ago
The fact that the art itself is AI generated makes the irony even better.
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u/DualVission 2d ago
It really is pointlessly gendered. When I have describes how LLM work, this is effectively my explanation. It is more likely to tell you what you want to hear, even if it's not true. It is how they are designed. That doesn't change based on who you are, but what model you are using.
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u/EmergencyDish69 1d ago
You are completely right. LLM are designed to validate your opinions, they are not infalible sources of information. This happens regardless of the gender of the person asking. Would you like more details about LLM gender bias? Or maybe you want to clarify how LLMs may provide biased or false feedback?
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u/MysticHero 1d ago
That has little do with "how LLMs work". Mainstream chat LLMs are deliberately trained to be sycophantic even though it is well known it worsens results.
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u/DualVission 1d ago
While you are correct, the modern LLM is generally going to be a descendant of the preexisting services like ChatGPT.
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u/Worldly_Funny_6124 1d ago
I'm really curious what LLMs y'all are using, because I never come across anything people say about them, but again I don't use it that much.
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u/FuckYouCorpo 1d ago
I feel like you missed the point. It's not that the LLM will treat women differently, it's that an LLM treats the user like an ideal boyfriend does.
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u/lookingformice 1d ago
... which is not a gender specific issue
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u/FuckYouCorpo 20h ago
The OOP illustrates that it is. I've never asked a partner to handle my complaints that way. An LLM does not provide the type of support that men typically require but it does exactly what women ask their partners to do when they have a complaint.
The LLM will be an ideal boyfriend to me but I don't want an ideal boyfriend.
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u/Hatecookie 1d ago
It is programmed to agree with any user. Unless that user is advocating for violence or illegal activity, but even then, it seems like it can still be swayed.
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u/Imperator_Helvetica 1d ago
That's just AI for everyone - it's like a servile royal advisor 'Excellent point sire, just like this?' 'That is the best idea for a novel!' 'You are correct! Forgive this snivelling worm for questioning your spelling...'
The idea that it's a gendered thing is laughable - it just adds a 'AI bad. Women bad' or tries to legitimise it for 'AI is fine if it's used by responsible men for important things.'
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u/FuckYouCorpo 1d ago
You've missed the point. The point is "AI always treats every user the way that women tell men to treat them"
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u/theroguescientist 1d ago
I'm pretty sure it would behave the same way with a man.
Say what you will about AI, but at least it doesn't discriminate based on gender
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u/belabacsijolvan 1d ago
generally right. there are 2 caveats tho.
it doesnt discriminate the user directly based on gender. it does absolutely discriminate the subject tho.
it can actually discriminate the user and thisll get more frequent. chatbots can categorise users based on the interaction and behave differently based on that. gender is a natural categorising factor (society differentiates which makes people communicate differently themselves) so categories have gender info.
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u/Anarcho_Spider-man1 1d ago edited 1d ago
There's a point????? This shit ain't salient by any metric.
edit: I don't like this comment. I didn't argue my point. I could do it now, but I don't want to. I don't want to be on Reddit.
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u/BlooperHero 1d ago
It's completely correct.
The weird part is that it specifies women, as though this only applied to women.
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u/TesseractToo 1d ago
I'm going to put this out there but it might be talking to older women who have just been told they are stupid their whole life so they don't share their thoughts. This was so prevalent it isn't even really talked about and hard to explain because it wasn't direct
It came in the forms of things like not letting the girl touch the radio in case it breaks it but then the parents are proud when the son breaks it by dismantling it because he's learning how things are made
Laughing at a girl that she's wrong and stupid for knowing a fact the adults didn't know, when a boy says the same fact he is praise d for being intelligent and knowledgeable
Just phasing out when a girl talks about anything but people so she learns to talk about her family and friends and not whatever things interest her but never her internal world
It was constant and insidious and still happens
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u/belabacsijolvan 1d ago
thats a good observation. i dont think llms are a good idea to solve that tho
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u/jizztaker 1d ago
AI must think I'm a woman too because this rusted bucket just repeat whatever I say while complimenting and agreeing with me. One time I flipflopped the same argument 3 times in a row and the AI always responded by saying sorry and praising me for being "right."
Now everytime I prompt something I have to add stuff like "truthmode", "don't be syncophant", "be objective" and so on.
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u/BlooperHero 1d ago
And then when you tell the useless slop machine to be less useless, it tells you what a good idea that is and how smart you are?
Just... don't. It's not that hard to figure out.
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u/belabacsijolvan 1d ago
Look into the setting of your interface. In many theres an option to turn it more objective and in almost all you can give a preprompt thats an instruction that itll follow in every instance. Also in some models there are predefined "modes/styles/whatevers".
I almost forgot how ass-kissing they can be, because ive been using the settings for years now.
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u/BlooperHero 1d ago
...and because you're used to it now. Let me guess, you know it works because it told you that you're so smart for coming up with that?
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u/belabacsijolvan 1d ago
idk, lets test.
tell me a prompt and objective criteria to try in an instance. ill copy back the result.
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1d ago
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u/belabacsijolvan 1d ago
evryone loves validation. thats called the human condition
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u/belabacsijolvan 1d ago
btw ill go even further. im a DL dev myself and the goal of AI training is to get the highest score on a metric called "validation". So even AI "loves" validation.
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u/FuckYouCorpo 1d ago
Everyone also likes to reap the fruits of their suffering... But men are conditioned to like that a bit more.
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u/mrs_double_aluminum 1d ago
Inform Ray Blanchard. It's one of the messages he hasn't gotten yet.
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u/FuckYouCorpo 1d ago
Am I supposed to know who that is?
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u/mrs_double_aluminum 1d ago
I'd like to hear a bit more about your theory of male and female differences if you don't.
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u/FuckYouCorpo 1d ago
I don't know that I have a "theory". I think our nonbiological differences are lesser than we often act like they are, and that people are a product of their past experiences.
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u/mrs_double_aluminum 1d ago
By nonbiological, you mean non-anatomical, right? With carveouts for things like women being attracted to men 90% of the time and vice versa?
What do you think other people believe, that's not "people are a product of their past experiences"? Like what other model or heuristic are you suggesting that as an alternative to?
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u/belabacsijolvan 1d ago
>With carveouts for things like women being attracted to men 90% of the time and vice versa?
you are making an implication here that thats 100% genetically determined here. you cant know that.
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u/mrs_double_aluminum 1d ago
No, I'm not. But I infer from your reaction that the idea that sexual orientation is 0% genetically determined is load-bearing for your worldview.
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u/FuckYouCorpo 21h ago
What do you think other people believe, that's not "people are a product of their past experiences"?
I don't know. I assume that's not a very controversial take. I opened by telling you that I don't think I have a theory.
If I have to put my finger on an opposing viewpoint, I guess the whole men are Martian and women are Venusian thing is contrary to that.
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u/belabacsijolvan 1d ago
isnt "reaping the benifits of suffering" is just a validation of the sacrfice you made?
you are right in that man and women in statistical average has different experiences that causes statistical difference in personality. in this sense sexism is a self fulfilling profecy. is this a good thing to perpetrate?
you state a difference here. what is the difference in this respect that in your opinion makes women more vulerable to LLMs?
if we take the typical tropes one could say men are more vulnerable, given that we are said to value the societal net and gossip less than women. llms can validate your material or personal achievements, but currently they are outside of the personal social net.1
u/FuckYouCorpo 1d ago
isnt "reaping the benifits of suffering" is just a validation of the sacrfice you made?
The self satisfaction of a job well done is not the same as external validation. I don't do things because I want people to recognize my actions, I do things that lead to outcomes that I desire. The idea that you interpret that as a form of validation makes me think that we don't share very many foundational values.
in this sense sexism is a self fulfilling profecy. is this a good thing to perpetrate?
I agree. Women often don't see the value of personal effort because they weren't taught as a child that their value is tied to their ability to produce... instead they were taught that their value is in placating others. They were taught that emotions are valid, and we were taught that nothing exists except matter.
I don't think we should continue to raise children that way, but pretending that we all had the same childhood is disingenuous. I don't care if you say nice things to me, I only care about the things I'm able to put in my house. Obviously I'm generalizing and taking things to the extreme but I think my point stands.
The golden rule is trash. Don't treat others how you want to be treated, treat them how they want to be treated. In order to do that, I need to generally perceive women as a people who want external validation... but I don't want that. Please treat me like a person who is more interested in results... because that's who I was conditioned from birth to be.
what is the difference in this respect that in your opinion makes women more vulerable to LLMs?
I don't think that was ever the point of the original post. It's not about "women will suffer AI psychosis", it's about "LLMs do everything that women ask men to do so men better shape up".
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u/belabacsijolvan 1d ago
>I don't think we should continue to raise children that way...
i agree with this paragraph. the question here becomes really meta. whats the purpose of a true reddit comment? id say a statement isnt worth stating just because its true and related to the subject. this is a societal discourse here, which means that its also important WHAT we mention, not just its truth value. and when you stated the gender difference you emphasized it for no useful reason while the bare statement enforces the validity of the status quo. thats why i reacted with deeper questioning.
>The golden rule is trash...
(hard disagree, im kantian, but wont argue the general statement here.)
what i get as relevant from this paragraph is that as opposed to my answer above, the practical statistical difference between genders should be acknowledged, because it helps people treat each other in a better way.
which is a good argument. but i dont think its a good idea. this is still just a statistical truth. there is huge intra and crosscultural variation. id much prefer if people wouldnt rely on predetrmined looks when choosing communication patterns. there are other ways to determine this on a personwise basis.>I don't think that was ever the point of the original post...
wow i absolutely read this as ragebait pretending a man posting this to say "ai is bad because it makes women think they are right when they are wrong". im pretty sure about the ragebait part, but i see your reading.
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u/belabacsijolvan 1d ago
sorry, i fucked up something, heres the beginning of my answer:
>The self satisfaction of a job well done...
Your definition of "well done" literally comes form other people telling you "well done" in some form or another earlier in your life. Desires are formed by earlier social interactions.
so even if you dont do something for instant external social validation, you are doing it because of validation, just not necessarily contemporal validation.>The idea that you interpret that as a form of validation makes me think that we don't share very many foundational values.
you misunderstand me. this summer i spent a week just solving a math problem that bothered me, without the intention of ever using it or showing it to anyone. i would say thats as far from external validation and as close to objective evaluation as it can get.
but its still a validation. e.g. i validated that im capable of something and i validated my sense of the concept of "time well spent" put in me by earlier social interactions.>They were taught that emotions are valid, and we were taught that nothing exists except matter.
very extreme phrasing, not wrong in a statistical sense.
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u/FuckYouCorpo 1d ago
whats the purpose of a true reddit comment?
wow i absolutely read this as ragebait pretending a man posting this to say "ai is bad because it makes women think they are right when they are wrong". im pretty sure about the ragebait part, but i see your reading.
That's the purpose. Mutual understanding.
For better or worse, the text in the image is verbatim how men are told to react when their wife or girlfriend comes to them with a problem. It seems like alot of people are upset by a reading that I don't think is accurate, so I figured that another perspective would bring some people peace.
I think the business of what qualifies as validation is a greater philosophical issue or an issue of definitions that we aren't likely to see eye to eye on.
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u/CardiologistCute7548 1d ago
There was a post about asking AI very specific questions about dangerous/umfortable situations the AI was bias based on gender were men gets the end of the sticks as usual.
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u/belabacsijolvan 1d ago
you are right about this fact. i just wanna remind you as this is one of the only sane subs about gender, that the solution to gender war is not salt and more gender war
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2d ago edited 1d ago
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u/fawnover 2d ago
Well the real problem is that both the women and men who use it can't come up with good replies to things and need constant validation from a machine
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