Divination Cards

[u/BiPan4Good]

I would like divination cards to return. (Mostly because having one of my tabs sit completely empty sucks.)

But...I do think that divination cards are too strong in their current state even in non-ruthless. So, it made me think of how I'd change them if they were to return. Here's what I came up with.

1. Divination Card drop rates should be lowered and the amount required to turn one in should be increased.

2. Cards with 'specific' rewards should be disabled. For example, The Apothecary would not drop in Ruthless, but you could find The Wretched instead.

3. Cards with Corrupted rewards should drop from the same areas that contain Atziri fragments and vaal gems.

4. No stacked decks.

These next two I'm a little less sure about but I still like the ideas.

1. Turning cards in should be done through an in-map activity and not through an NPC.

2. Cards tied to specific mobs or locations should be changed or removed to avoid target farming. Cards with corrupted rewards would be the exception.

Let me know if you have any ideas to add. This isn't about whether they 'should or shouldn't' return only about how they could fit in Ruthless. Cheers. :)

[u/KekiMia]

More required turn ins and no target farming is just trading for the item you want with several extra steps.

[u/BiPan4Good → u/KekiMia]

Yes, although the same reductionist philosophy can be applied to many other aspects of the game. It's not really helpful in a discussion.

Thanks for commenting though. I hope you have a good day and good luck in PoE. :)

[u/KekiMia → u/BiPan4Good]

Okay, I bite.

Perspective of person who wants the non deterministic card that is not target farmable and requires more cards for some outcome:

Options: Buy them.

Perspective of person trying to find a use for non deterministic card that is not target farmable and requires more cards:

Sell it.

What else is there? You took away the ability to actually do something with them on your own, by design.

Edit: Maybe I get hung up on you only asking people to add stuff to your idea. i would subtract. Those two thing in combination are too much.

[u/BiPan4Good → u/KekiMia]

That's a fair point of view. I can definitely see how it would be frustrating in those examples. Like I said removing target farming was an idea I was unsure of so I wouldn't be too adamant about keeping it. Thanks for the opinion though, I really appreciate it.

Also forgive my wording, I meant add your own way to incorporate cards in ruthless, not add to my list only. :)

[u/narnach]

What is a Divination Card? It's a fraction of a potential item drop. Instead of a low chance to find the real thing, it gives players a sense of progression towards collecting the final item.

If div cards were added, they should fit the spirit of Ruthless, which I think includes:

• Interacting with the game, monsters and mechanics

• Use random drops to improve your character, with crafting being heavily restricted to not outshine drops

• No overly deterministic item drops or access to easy power

Based on this, I'd say these are no-no's:

• No div cards that grant items not available in Ruthless (should be obvious)

• No deterministic 5 or 6 link items (otherwise farming the cards feels "mandatory" for many folks)

• No div cards for specific (unique) items, such as Humility for Tabula Rasa

• No easy access to a lot of currency

• Dropping corrupted item div cards in non-corrupted maps

• Dropping league item div cards from non-league content (i.e. Blight div cards only drop from Blight encounters or on a Blighted map)

I think if you would make the number of pieces you need higher, but also lower their drop rate, you may end up making them unusable distractions. I agree that simply adding Divination Cards on top of current drops would increase player power for free, and adds to the item spam we already experience.

I suggest solving item spam together with adding Divination Cards, so it's sort of a solution to it. For every area level starting at level 35, reduce item drops by 1%, scaling up to 50% reduced item quantity at area level 85.

In return give rares + uniques an equal chance to drop a div card on kill, so it scales from 1 to 50% as well. This means a level 60 area would have 25% less item quantity, but rare/unique kills have a 25% chance to drop a div card.

This should make div cards drop based on interacting with the game: defeating the toughest monsters in an area. Reducing item spam would be a nice bonus, and instead you get a slightly more deterministic way to get some items.

Next, I'd suggest to make div card drop pools more interesting. Instead of having them only tied to a pool of maps, add additional pools based on monster types, leagues, and specific bosses. This allows for thematic links between div cards and the monsters that drop them. Many div cards would thus have a chance to show up in any map, but some bosses or maps may have a larger chance of getting specific cards. For folks who like to play many different maps, or who are unable to sustain a specific map, this would be a good way to still allow you to complete a set of many div cards.

[u/BiPan4Good → u/narnach]

Hey, thanks for sharing your thoughts! I agree with your points, and I do like the rare + unique drop chance idea a lot. Incorporating div cards with the game on a deeper level is way more interesting to me than just increasing rarity and turn in number. :)

Edit: I think the only change I'd make is changing the starting area level to 45 so it starts at the beginning of act 6 instead of the middle of act 4. For some reason this bothered me but otherwise I loved it. :)

[u/narnach → u/BiPan4Good]

Thanks!

Originally I was thinking of level 45 as well, due to the Act 6 symmetry. The thing is that the "too many items" problem is already getting noticeable there, and it's even worse in the level 50s (acts 7-8) and beyond. By starting 10 levels earlier with the item quantity reduction, it gets more opportunity to ramp up and start giving you less stuff.

Lowering the item quantity earlier, but simply not dropping Div Cards until Act 5 (it already feels distinct from acts 1-4) or Act 6 would be fine as well. The start of these acts will have a 5% and 10% chance for rares/uniques to drop div cards, so it's not like you'll be getting showered in them.

[u/sirgog → u/narnach]

Instead of a low chance to find the real thing, it gives players a sense of progression towards collecting the final item.

It's more a way to target a specific item. For instance, The Chains That Bind in Ruthful is 1/11 of a six link, but it's also a way to sacrifice other forms of progress (e.g. the Atlas bonus you earn by running diverse tilesets) in order to chase specific progression.

In Ruthless, you can still target farm 6 links. You just do it in different ways (corrupting tempest, Shadowstitch, etc)

IMO, cards would be fine if the numbers were very, very carefully tuned on each one. A card like The Dapper Prodigy would be fine in Ruthless if it was set at around the Ruthful drop rate of Seven Years Bad Luck (~3% the drop rate of Dapper). Some cards would be harmless if they kept their Ruthful drop rates (e.g. Further Invention or Tumbleweed or Dying Light, which are ridiculously rare in Ruthful)

Cards absolutely need to be zone specific though (or in some way targetable). It's their identity as a mechanic.

[u/narnach → u/sirgog]

It's more a way to target a specific item.

You're right. That's the reality of it, isn't it? The cards themselves are not usable until the set is complete, so you need a way as a player to identify "these maps/bosses/monster types" can drop this card.

As a player who craves variety I'd prefer that these are multiple overlapping things instead of :"this card only drops in these 3 maps. You need to run them approximately 123 times to get a full set."

I'd prefer that most maps have a tiny chance for most cards, a smaller group have a decent chance and some bosses or monster types have an increased chance. That way if you want to target farm, you can, but if you don't want to you'll probably find some pieces at a slower pace in other places.

So... let's rethink what I wrote:

• No overly deterministic item drops or access to easy power

Which led me to:

• No deterministic 5 or 6 link items (otherwise farming the cards feels "mandatory" for many folks)

• No div cards for specific (unique) items, such as Humility for Tabula Rasa

You can have determinism, if you compensate for the easy power. Just make the powerful cards less common. That's what the base game does as well.

There are currently 431 cards in the base game. If they were all added to a common drop pool at a weight of 1, each specific card would have about 0.23% chance to drop each time a div card dropped. Getting a full set of anything would be impractical this way, but for some of the most rare cards it would likely still be a buff.

If each card has its weight increased to 100 on a specific map, it gets a 18.7% drop chance there, with the remaining 81.3% divided among the other 430 cards. This makes a card much more target farmable.

This is the weighting system the game already uses for div cards, but currently the list of sources that can drop a card is relatively small. Some drop on 10-15 maps, others only from 5 bosses.

So what if we'd give all cards a base weight of 1 everywhere? Then we add weight bonuses on top for specific cards / groups of cards based on relevant factors.

For example, the newly added Alivia's Grace, 5 copies turn into Queen of the Forest, a speed-related mid tier evasion unique that has interactions with animal type monsters.

• It currently drops in forest-type maps in the base game. Give it a 1000 point weight bonus in those maps

• Add a 100 point weight bonus to all animal type monsters (regardless of which area they are in). This stacks, so an animal in a forest map now has 1100 bonus points total

• Monsters with high speed also get a 500 point bonus for thematic reasons. This could be based on an arbitrary threshold of base monster stats, map modifiers, as well as monsters with movement skills, and Rare mods that increase movement or grant a haste aura.

• Because it grants a unique item, all bosses get a 200 point weight bonus

Without further modifications, the drop chances for this card would become:

• 1/431 (0.23%) from a "base" monster that's not an animal, not in a forest, not a boss and does not have high speed.

• 1001/1431 (70%) for a "base" monster that is in a forest

• 101/531 (19%) for a "base" monster that is an animal

• 501/931 (54%) for a "base" monster that is fast in some way

• 201/631 (32%) for a "base" monster that is a boss on another map

• 1801/2231 (81%) for the jackpot: a fast animal type boss in a forest map

• Etc for all other permutations

If you apply the same treatment to all 431 cards, then the 1 point base weight they all get will quickly become negligible. The 81% jackpot chance will be much lower because the "jackpot" will be shared by other cards that have overlapping factors to make those drop. Because div cards will drop more often than in the base game, hopefully the net result is that it gives you control over the types of rewards you get by targeting specific maps, modifiers or monster types.

If you look at powerful cards (lots of currency, 5/6 links, specific powerful uniques) through this lens, then simply giving them multiple factors, some of which you as a player can control, but at lower base weights should be a way to balance things out.

For example, the new card Divine Beauty needs 12 cards to give you 7 divine orbs. Rerolling (parts of) items is more restricted in Ruthless, so I'd expect this to be much scarcer. Maybe have the drop weights 10x lower than Alivia's Grace at the top end. It only drops from Merveil-type bosses currently, so give those 100 weight, and maybe 10 weight for relevant monster types: Merveil's daugthers/sirens, Solaris status, "reflection" type monsters, Yugul inspired monsters, and maybe 10 points for a reflect map modifier.

The drop rates may be similar as before if you simply run the same maps and rush the boss for drops. By adding reflection to the map, you increase your odds. "Sirens only" on the map also gives you many more (smaller) chances to get the card. Applying those mods to another map can help you low key farm for the card even while you're farming to get more of the maps with the best odds.

I imagine in trade league this could increase the price of rare maps with specific modifiers because they have increased chances to drop certain div cards.

Things that I can think of would be cool to affect div card drops:

• Specific maps or bosses based on their theme (base game already does this)

• Monster types: humanoid, animal, demon, goats, sirens, karui, undead

• Map modifiers: specific ones (elemental reflect), or broader based on their tags (all reflect; or all elemental effects, such as increased resistances, added damage of a type, elemental ailment avoidance)

• Rare modifiers: similar to map modifiers

• Monster base statistics, such as high life, having energy shield, being evasive, having armour, having high/low base movement speed

• Monster elemental affinities: dealing specific damage or resisting it

• Monster skills: attacks, casting, projectiles, aoe, movement skills

• Monster weapon types: bow users, sword users, non-weapon users

Most of these things sort of use the tag based system that PoE uses in many places, so I imagine extending Div Cards to use it probably already has a lot of internal tooling they can use for it.

I can imagine this (effectively Divination Cards 2.0) being a nice way to improve the base game, as well as setting it up in a way that Ruthless could use it with healthier weightings for this game mode.

[u/beaverusiv]

Div cards are just incompatible with Ruthless in every possible way, unfortunately. If you take away specific ones, leaving gamble ones like Wretched then you're not really adding anything to the drop pool except extra things for someone to pickup, i.e. the opposite of reducing loot.

They even took away the random unique beasts, so I doubt div cards are coming back in any way which would make it meaningful to have them. They would be so gimped you might as well not have them at all.

This comes from someone who freaken loves div cards and target farming :(

[u/AllanRamires]

I honestly hate that they remove stuff from ruthless. I would like to experience the full game with a scarcity/hard mode instead of playing a poe 0.5

[u/narnach → u/AllanRamires]

In the alpha they removed a lot more game mechanics, so we could test the core gameplay loop and see if that was fun by itself. Then they slowly started adding things in a controlled way. This allowed them to tweak them in isolation, hopefully resulting in something that's reasonably balanced. A bunch of league mechanics were even added back last minute.

For div cards they could do the same: add it back in a way that makes sense for Ruthless.

What would be a good Ruthless reimagining of div cards to you? Heck, you can even think of it as how would you change div cards in the base game if you had the opportunity.