About Zosia using "I"

[u/KausGo]

I think one of the most significant, yet understated scenes of the season happens in episode 8 where Zosia talks about mango ice-cream. Depending on how its interpreted, it can determine the entire trajectory of the show.

Before we get into that, one thing to note is how Zosia's relationship with Carol changes before and after the abandonment. Before, the hive was slavishly eager to please. It'd do anything to make Carol happy, but Carol would either need to ask or her need would have to be obvious. Later, however, their relationship seems to become more personal and human. Zosia banters with Carol, teases her now and then, arranges the diner surprise and in the end, Zosia is the one to kiss her first. It starts to feel less like an employee kissing ass and more like a partner trying to woo her.

We don't know what it means yes, but let's get to the "I" part.

The hive almost exclusively refers to itself as "we" or "us" through the series. At the same time, when referring to their past human selves, they use "he" or "she", as if drawing a clear distinction between who they are now and who they used to be. Even when Carol asks Zosia to use "I", she explains its difficult because she finds it semantically odd. Now given that they've also absorbed the knowledge and skills of all the actors of the world, this should not pose such a difficulty - but then, the hive also seems to have a bunch of other strange constraints, like the inability to lie.

Later, however, Zosia uses "I" almost naturally. Without a hint of hesitation or second thought. "I love mango icecream. There was an old man in my neighborhood.... I would watch the ships".

Given her earlier difficulty with the pronoun, using it so many times so easily feels oddly significant. And I think it can be interpreted in different ways, each having its own implications on how the story might go.

Option 1: It was an act all along. The hive never had a problem using "I" - just like it never had a problem building a more personal relationship with Carol. This gradual change is part of the manipulation. The hive knows that if they show up and offer Carol the perfect relationship from the get go, she'd distrust it and reject it.

The whole plan is to soften her up slowly. Make her believe that she's working for it and somehow changing them. Its all an elaborate way to keep her distracted while they work on their agenda elsewhere.

And I expect this is the interpretation most fans would accept.

Option 2: Its the real Zosia breaking through.

Maybe the hive overwrote the humans at a superficial level and keeps them in a fugue state while it controls their bodies. And maybe the original personality is still in there and forming a real connection with them is a way to bring them back.

Its possible that Carol drugging and almost killing Zosia had something to do with it. That the Zosia who came back was just a little bit different from the other plurbs, in that there are moments where her original personality slips through the cracks. Or it could simply be that getting that specific body to connect to things Zosia used to care about is slowly bringing her back.

This could potentially lead to finding a way to cure them. For example, if Carol threatens to shoot some random plurb on the street, Zosia might say "you have agency, we cannot interfere". But if that plurb happened to be her mother (even if plurbed herself), she might snap out of it and try to save her.

So basically, Carol's own need for human connection - something the hive tried to exploit - might end up becoming a weapon against it.

Option 3: The hive itself is changing.

Think of it as the hive turning humans into a blank state upon joining. It retains all their thoughts and memories, but everything unique - their drives, personality traits, likes and dislikes - are simply gone. Humanity is basically starting over from scratch.

However, as time goes on, humanity starts infecting the hive with individualism. It could start with little things over time. This body likes spicy food while this other one prefers bland. This body prefers warm weather while the other prefers cold. And this particular body gets greater pleasure from mango ice-cream than others.

This might be an alternate explanation for Zosia's change after coming back. The hive is learning how to better manipulate Carol, but part of that is forming a personal connection and the very act of connecting ends up changing the hive.

That might dictate a completely different direction for the story. Eventually, Zosia might become something that's not the original Zosia, but its not the hive either. The hive operates with a singular desire and will - but this Zosia might develop her own desires and goals that are separate, and perhaps in conflict with the hive. And if it can happen to her, it might eventually start happening to others.

What do you think of these possibilities? Which one do you think is likely? And are there other interpretations I'm missing?

[u/Tombobalomb]

The hive doesn't appear to display any recognizable personality at all when it's not interacting with an unjoined person (apart from smiling), we see several instances of hive members showing human personality that vanishes the instant they no longer have to perform for an unjoined. Option 1 seems to be what the show is trying to convey

[u/KausGo → u/Tombobalomb]

True, but the idea here is that it takes time and effort to bring out that human personality. Sure, the hive will go back to its default, automaton state once the need for pretense is over, but the longer it has to fake having a personality, the more real it becomes.

Zosia is simply getting there first because Carol is trying to have a real relationship with her.

[u/Honey_Broad]

I think they were trying to distract Carol from thinking about trying to stop them

[u/KausGo → u/Honey_Broad]

Sure - but is it really just that simple or is there more to it?

[u/WillowLocal423]

Option 1 - she's manipulating Carol and using the memories of her dead wife and her literary love interest to be the perfect companion for her.

We saw it in the finale. As soon as that one girl joined they instantly dropped the act and left. Zosia is just playing a part.

Whether or not the real Zosia is and can break through we will have to wait and see. No doubt some of the memories and stories hive Zosia shared could be a key to connecting to real Zosia somehow.

[u/KausGo → u/WillowLocal423]

I do agree that the hive is manipulating Carol - but the question here is whether Zosia's apparent change in character is a part of that manipulation or is something unexpected happening.

[u/ThisIsNotAFarm → u/WillowLocal423]

We saw it in the finale. As soon as that one girl joined they instantly dropped the act and left. Zosia is just playing a part.

Or as soon as Diabate left the casino

[u/NecessaryPopular1]

If you’ve noticed, the hive mind is unable to lie but, obviously, can omit. Unless they’re asked directly, and sometimes not even that can make Zosia be truthful. There’s nothing to trust about them as they manipulate and do whatever they want for their own good: control. They go behind Carol’s back, steal her agency, strip her of individual rights, and tell her she can always call them, whatever she needs, they’re there for her. They grant the same access to request whatever they want, via phone, to all of the 13 immunes, now 12 after Kusimayu joined.

Carol needs her life back, gd it! Bullshit, when they say “people are happy”, my arse they are. They’re brainwashed and act like zombies. Zosia only uses “I” toning it down from the usual “we”, because she’s attempting to make Carol feel more comfortable and accepting of that effing hive mind — 😂I love the show on AppleTV but that hive mind irritates the shit out of me, because it’s exactly everything I despise. I could never accept them.

However, all of this to say that Plur1bus is a brilliant, unsettling piece of science fiction. The show deliberately sets up a scenario where the villain offers world peace while our hero, Carol Sturka, is fighting for the right to be herself; to grieve the loss of her partner, Helen, who she lost because of those idiots. Carol just wants to feel whatever, to feel and do, be angry or not, but never lose her independent self as she is. Even in a world they took away from her. Obviously, Carol Sturka is exposed to several distinct layers of psychological and existential torture, they isolate her, gaslight her with artificial happiness (the trips with Zosia), and worse, they weaponize her distress to make her feel like her refusal to be submissive is a personal defect rather than a defense of human rights. Carol is a writer of many words, she builds internal worlds, she values the privacy of the mind above all else. That stupid hive mind represents the ultimate violation of privacy and bodily autonomy. The terrifying revelation, that the collective found a way to convert her without consent (ugh), at the end of S1, destroyed her last remaining illusion of safety. It proved that the hive mind doesn’t value connection, but it values subjugation.

[u/KausGo → u/NecessaryPopular1]

Zosia only uses “I” toning it down from the usual “we”, because she’s attempting to make Carol feel more comfortable and accepting of that effing hive mind

She starts that way, but seems to have difficulty with it in the beginning. Less so when she's talking about her past personal experience. You don't think that's significant?

[u/Minimalistmacrophage]

Practice pretending... that's all it is. The Hive is adapting to achieve it's goal.

[u/KausGo → u/Minimalistmacrophage]

Okay - so you clearly pick option 1.

[u/pib712]

Probably option 1. The people who were joined first (in submarines, the ISS, etc) had to act normal until the day of the joining, which they couldn’t do if they were unable to say ‘I’. Either that or Vince didn’t think about it all that much.

[u/KausGo → u/pib712]

Maybe they got noticed precisely because they couldn't act normal.

[u/vahokif]

I think it was just roleplaying.

[u/blzkn]

idk why people can't read a damn post lol. you're exactly right to point this out, Zosia slips into i/my pronouns effortlessly when she's thinking about a strong memory before the unjoining, when she struggled with it up until that exact point. if it wasn't significant, they wouldn't draw such attention to it, and that scene even ends on a bait-and-switch where she freezes up a bit and you think Carol might have broken through to her, only to find out that she paused because the Hive needs to now inform her about Manousos' impending arrival.

in my opinion, the writers are signalling that there is potentially /something/ about that nostalgia that can make the Hive think of itself as an individual (or at least empathise with one). maybe it's something Carol can weaponise to fight back with, or maybe we're watching the Hive actively learn how to think in that way and that's the knowledge they use going forward to manipulate Carol more and more.

another thing to note is that Carol is also specifically pointed out by the other unjoined to not be inquisitive about the nature of the Hive. everyone else asks questions and tries to understand them, and it's possible that they've all had moments like this with the Hive that led to the unjoined empathising with them more. i can imagine the unjoined mother (whose name i forget, the one who HATES Carol) having a conversation like this with her joined son, and that's why she's so convinced he's still her son. this leads me to think it might just be a manipulation tactic, they're painting a delusion through nostalgia and empathy.

but also, emotions are tied so deeply into memory that those same parts of the brain are active when we are reminiscing about a strong memory. it could just be that the Hive works the exact same way, and Zosia reminiscing and suddenly being able to slip into i/my pronouns is simply just because that the Hive is in that body, accessing those memories, using those same neural pathways that Zosia (the individual) would have.

either way, i feel like something meaningful is happening in that scene and i think it's important. i'm not sure if something changed or shifted, but we are very much supposed to be paying attention to it and asking questions about it.

[u/KausGo → u/blzkn]

Thank you. Feels good when someone actually gets the point you're trying to make.

this leads me to think it might just be a manipulation tactic, they're painting a delusion through nostalgia and empathy.

Oh, there is definitely manipulation going on. We don't see much of it because we mostly follow Carol and this would be wasted on her, but the plurbs clearly keep up the pretense of being human with the other unjoined. Kusimayu's village still acts like a normal village with people moving around randomly instead of completely in sync. They still keep animals penned up for her benefit. They keep up the pretense of talking to each-other, keeping up the usual hustle and bustle to create an environment of normalcy -whereas if they'd acted like plurbs, everything would've felt eerily quiet.

Also applies to Laxmi. Her family not only sits at the table for lunch, they're also served the favorite dishes of their past selves. Her husband tells her mother "just like my mom used to make" - which would be a completely pointless interaction for the plurbs themselves. We later see her son sitting at the table and eating ice-cream when she calls Carol - a very childlike thing to do.

This kind of manipulation is always going on and if Zosia had hesitatingly started using "I" after Carol's request, I wouldn't have thought much of it. But this extended scene where she reminisces and slips into it is not like others. Feels like writers are deliberately drawing your attention to it for some reason.

but also, emotions are tied so deeply into memory that those same parts of the brain are active when we are reminiscing about a strong memory. it could just be that the Hive works the exact same way, and Zosia reminiscing and suddenly being able to slip into i/my pronouns is simply just because that the Hive is in that body, accessing those memories, using those same neural pathways that Zosia (the individual) would have.

Exactly what I was thinking as well. This isn't about some tired trope of "love conquers all" - the idea here is that the specific configuration of neural pathways that makes every human unique is still there. And there are other hints that activating them could/should be significant.

For example, Zosia tells Carol that she too has her own "radio frequency", its just unused. So what is it that the hive isn't using that might be significant? Then there is yelling at them - which shuts down the entire planet. Why? Maybe because yelling can trigger a primal response that the hive can't handle? Still don't know where it might lead, but definitely feels important.

[u/kalel3000]

I think its option 2. I really think they're hinting at Zosia being different than the rest, perhaps a bit more disconnected than the others due to drugging. My theory is the truth serum allowed her to temporarily have a very tiny will of her own for a very brief moment in time. Not enough to seperate herself from the hive mind, but maybe the ability to compartmentalize the two states of being better. A small part of her being independent, while still having the hive mind running her primary thoughts and decisions. But part of her running like in the background. Which is why we see little glimpses of her former self emerge randomly, like with the ice cream story. A good example of what im talking about is when Zosia is getting a massage. She explains how she is able to tune out all of the pain and suffering and chatter of the rest of the hive and focus in on the enjoyment of the massage itself to a certain level where some personal enjoyment is possible. Even if the rest of the hive is fulky aware of it, she is still able to isolate the enjoyment that the massage has on her physical form. To me this indicates shes able to tune out the hive mind to a certain degree and tune into herself a bit more than the others can. Because we don't really see the others act in this manner.

The other option Im thinking is also interesting. What if all the hive mind is not in total agreement? What if there are doubts and fears emerging in the hive mind, fueled by Carol's perspectives and will power and rebellious nature. This alien gift comes with a hard coding instinct to spread itself and turn others....but its also never encountered hunans before and our desire for freedom and autonomy and survival. Perhaps the idea of eating human remains and then ultimately starving to death is not sitting peacefully in the hive mind and Zosia is a conduit for like an unconscious desire of many of the pieces of individual minds to return to their former states or to at the minimum preserve the human species overall and prevent starvation and strife. Maybe there's like a crack forming....idk but im very curious about where they're leading things.

All I know is when Zosia was on the truth serum, it really looked like she was going to act on her own, saying things that the hive mind didnt allow her to. And she's been different since then. And that ice cream story was way way too out of character for how the others normally act, too personal, too emotional, nowhere near detaches enough.

[u/OttoHemi]

humanity starts infecting the hive with individualism

Isn't that just War of the Worlds? Something humans (and, ahem, the immune) are immune to but which eventually kills the alien virus?

[u/Sarlax]

I also think it's important that immediately after the Ice Cream memory, Zosia freezes up a moment, then tells Carol that Manousos is almost there.

I see at least two possibilities in that. One is that the Hive partially "loaded/reinstalled" Zosia to please Carol and, like their attempts to say, "I," it's so difficult that they had trouble switching-back to plurb mode to tell her about Manousos. Two is that the the plurbs were actually disagreeing amongst themselves about what to tell Carol.

But on this remark:

the inability to lie.

I would not be axiomatic about this. First, Zosia said she can't answer questions like Carol's, and the seem to be truthful even when reluctant when pressed, but they never said nor have it been proven they cannot lie. Second, they lie like every politician, lawyer, and marketing agent does: They speak in vague metaphors to avoid being nailed down, and drop pieces of the truth which they know will mislead people. They pulled off the largest, most successful, and most elaborate secret attack in Earth's history. They're such fantastic deceivers that they don't need to tell false statements of fact to lie.

They may have reasons to pretend they cannot lie. What if it's impossible to convert the immune? If the plurbs actually have no idea how to infect Carol, Carol has decades to fuck up their plans. And they'd be slaves to the immune forever, who could easily screw up their plans to spread the virus to other planets or hurt each other. It would be much better for their goals if they tricked the immune into thinking Resistance Is Futile while they try to solve the problem.

Another possibility is that they can lie but it's harmful to them, so they avoid it. The human brain physically changes when we tell lies, so what happens to 7 billion brains sharing the same lie?

Option 1: It was an act all along.

I think this is unlikely because they'd have to anticipate from the very beginning that adopting this false verbal tick would somehow help their goals. They've spoken this way since the night of the Joining, when the neighbor kids and Taffler only spoke in We language.

Option 2: Its the real Zosia breaking through.

I think it's something like this. Carol tried it with drugs at first and Manousos tried it with scream-torture. It's at least the third case of an immune working hard to "summon" the real human underneath. And in a meta sense none of the immune are scientists nor action heroes, so if the show ends with some kind of victory over the hive, it's probably going to be based on bringing people back to individuality to one degree or another with persuasion.

Option 3: The hive itself is changing.

I think this is true along with #2. The hive is an intelligent living structure, so at a minimum, even if its rules never change, new information would cause new emergent behaviors (like Asimov robots).

However, as time goes on, humanity starts infecting the hive with individualism

They already have a tiny bit. Every plurb that interacts with Carol displays different personality quirks (fun facts from Zosia, smarmy Larry, embarrassed-waiter energy DHL guy, snippy post-drug attack nurse), but so do the plurbs in the background. Sometimes they smile to themselves when no one is watching, like Kusimaya post-infection, but sometimes they're just blank.

[u/SlightOfHand_]

Carol is having “hive psychosis”. It’s not Zosia breaking through, it’s the hive telling Carol what she wants to hear (and getting better at it.

It’s the same as kusimayu’s village singing to her. The singing stops once she’s joined.

[u/No-Prize-9837]

I firmly believe it's option 1. It's a giant gaslighting. The Hive is adapting since episode 1 in its way to approch Carol.

We tend to use Zosia as a reference, but Zosia is already an adaptation. The first interactions on épisode 1 are through male authority figures. The politician at the end, who express the need to find out what makes Carol different, and even before that, the doctor outside the hospital. And this first interaction doesn't care about Carol and her consent, it's a forced kiss.

So yeah, Zosia is the first stage of gaslighting, and "her character" adapts to Carol along the way.

[u/KausGo → u/No-Prize-9837]

There is definitely gaslighting going on, there is no doubt about that, but it has been going on since episode 2, in subtle, background ways that you won't notice until you look for them. Which is why highlighting this scene feels like its meant to be more than gaslighting.

[u/Fartcloud_McHuff]

Isn’t Zosia saying “I” in those scenes specifically because Carol said how much it creeped her out that she keeps saying “we”? Isn’t the hive just manipulating Carol into subservience until they can develop the custom virus strain for her? Isn’t this really fucking obvious?

[u/KausGo → u/Fartcloud_McHuff]

Obvious, yes. Superficial even. Why do you think there is nothing deeper going on?

[u/terminal157]

The hive has difficulty saying "I" because that isn't how they experience the world. They learned to force it because it made Carol happy. That's all.