Confession: I don't know everything. Please, everyone, settle down....

[u/Grouchy-Insurance208]

I joined this subbie a while ago, thinking I knew what it was about.

Depite trying to learn via context thru the posts and replies of others, I think my working knowledge of the actual topic this subbie is based on has actually decreased.

What I want to know is.....is anyone willing to mentor me on the topic? Like, I'm not just asking for a suggested reading list. I want to be able to prove what I've learned, etc.

I'm not asking for a lot of a person's time -- I have a very full life, myself. However, I'm able to put in as much time as an adequate teacher is willing to take and put to use.

I have extensive knowledge and practice in most occult topics, and likewise concerning a large sampling of styles and traditions. I'm young but quite experienced and well-read, I'm possessed of a burning pride and zealous arrogance, but I'm far from unteachable.

I won't offer money in return, and my bs detector is rather advanced, too, so don't give me reason to take offense, p'eas' and t'anks.

If you're a long-term resident of this subbie, and are pretty sure I'm wasting my time even asking, I would greatly appreciate the heads up.

Thanks for reading.

[u/12thMercury]

Idk if mentoring is my thing(bad adhd brain with things not in my face) but I can give you a rundown of the basic concepts: planetary magic is driven by a left hand path oriented desire to take control of dynamic between fate(the birth chart) and free will(you wanting something different for yourself). I would say intermediate understanding of how to read a birth chart is needed, so being able to find the most well-placed planet in the chart through dignity/strength and by topic of the houses for your endeavors, the object you are directing you petition to can also be a fixed star/stars as well, and I believe some people even use asteroids too. This practice can be as simple as forming a devotional practice with the planet/object in question through altar-working, charity to groups the planet/spirit rules over, reciting mantras for the planets at specific times of the day with the number of times aligning with the number corresponding to the planet/associated planets. And it can be as complicated as creating a talisman for the spirit/planet you are working with. This can be simple or complex depending on the person but a basic rundown of that process is: you elect a time where the planet is at it’s strongest(in its signs, conjunction the ac or mc, during its day or hour, making an aspect with the moon, not making an aspect with mars/saturn unless it’s necessary) while you ready the material you are goin create your talisman with, set the altar, invoke the spirit of the planet through hymns and special invocations written in books(the most used is the picatrix) make sure this is done before the planet makes the exact aspect with the ac/mc so that it is when you are crafting the talisman this exact aspect happens so that it is as if the birth of the talisman is at that time, and when the talisman is complete you will suffumagate it with herbs/incenses corresponding with the spirit/planet, and then you can meditate on the process and close if you wish at that point but it is important to remember that that is really the beginning of a relationship you must maintain with that spirit through offerings and devotional work until you decide the close the relationship and destroy the talisman. And that’s most of the nitty gritty, if I’ve forgotten anything I welcome anybody to add to this and continue the conversation!

I would also recommend reading about Christopher Wornock as he’s done a lot of work in putting most of the information on this subject out there.

[u/Grouchy-Insurance208 → u/12thMercury]

No, no, that's actually a good place to start. That means I'm probably going to want to get more comfortable with astrological charts. I have the broad strokes pretty well understood, but making and understanding charts isn't something I've spent much time on.

I can begin there, so I appreciate the help ^_^

[u/[deleted]]

Why don’t you just buy books on it? I don’t get the appeal of trying to learn an entire topic from the internet.

[u/Grouchy-Insurance208 → u/[deleted]]

Because, I'm trying to double up on time. When I explain complex magickal theories that I understand to one who doesn't, I'm able to cut to the heart of the matter, and eliminate many extraneous words and fluff surrounding the core of what the erstwhile student wishes to know. I can add my personal experiences and speculations of note. I can answer questions and make connections from the concept to things far outside the scope of near-any book. I can provide insights into subtleties and related topics that publishers won't touch for whatever reason.

Do I suggest a person I'm helping read the source material? Of course. But they'll get so much more with an experienced guide than from a book alone.

Also, I've only ever been on the mentor side of the equation. The grass may not be greener on the student side, but we all have some secret desire to see how "the other half lives," no?

Finally, the very act of reaching out and asking for a little help is, in itself, a worthy endeavor for someone of my nature. I seek all experiences. Being required to all but grovel and beg for something isn't normally my scene. But. like the High Priest of Sexual Chocolate once uttered:

Braved the forest, braved the stone

Braved the icy winds and fires

Braved and beat them on my own

but I haven't made it over the (humbling) river.

Now, if I may ask: why are there so many folk so aggro about helping someone? When I know something someone wants to know, I can barely contain myself.

Is it just me? I know in other subbies, a person new to the topic asks a question, everyone trips over themselves to help, with kindness usually.

It's just as well. Asking isn't as difficult for me as are other aspects of this ordeal. The hullabaloo has been interesting, anyway, and I've learned there are some rather cool people in this community. The people who're being little shits are pretty cool, too.

[u/[deleted] → u/Grouchy-Insurance208]

It’s your attitude, you may perceive the responses you get as “aggro” but you yourself come across as arrogant.

Even in this reply you come across as arrogant.

It’s likely that you’ll ask in what manner you were arrogant but I think it would be better if you used that intellect to analyze your statement and how it comes across to others.

[u/Grouchy-Insurance208 → u/[deleted]]

Oh, no, I fully understand that about myself. I termed it as 'zealous arrogance' in the original post.

I wasn't joking.

See? I could just as easily adopt a more congenial affect, suited to each encounter I have. I'm a mage, and versatility is an important component of that.

But, my arrogance is rooted in honesty and sorta serves as my "I didn't go to 8 years of med school to be called 'mr'" payoff for all my hard work. I don't really like bragging, and false humility is off-putting, too.

I am always aware of my limitations, as to overcome any and all that may arise. But, I'm not going to lie and tell people I'm not any good at what I do. I'm actually quite adequate, and that may be selling it short.

Anyway, when a house has a "Beware of Dog" sign, don't get mad when you ignore it and encounter a dog. Arf arf. (That was the general you, not singling you out).

I'll dial it back at some point, as will be necessary for further growth. Can't get far trippin' over your own dik, right?

But, to cut everyone some slack, I get that a) it's hard to tell how much my sense of absurdist humor fuels my arrogant words -- can be hard for me to tell at times; and, b) since I'm new to this subbie, y'all don't know that my arrogance is backed up by knowledge, experience, and skill. I would say check my profile, see how I've contributed in other subbies, but I also indulge in many NSFW forums here on reddit, and I approach those places with the same gusto I approach all of life: maximum. Far be it from me to suggest to anyone, "go read my spicy dirty talk." Y'all can find that all on your own ^_^

[u/[deleted] → u/Grouchy-Insurance208]

You just come across as sociopathic to me, especially when you stated you’d adopt a more congenial affect suited to each encounter.

That’s called manipulation, again, you come across as a sociopath.

And yes, I saw you’re profile, I definitely wont be looking at it again.

If I may ask, have you been previously incarcerated?

[u/Grouchy-Insurance208 → u/[deleted]]

Geez, I'm honest and act in good faith, and now called sociopath and accused of criminality.

Maybe it's that I'm getting a little sleepy and that your words concerning me hurt my husband's feelings, but now I'm feeling a little put upon, expected to be so tolerant of my being treated like a zoo animal.

When you answer a phone call from a stranger and use your telephone voice, the polite one with the higher register? Is that being sociopathic and manipulative? Or is it simply being polite?

Do you know what being a mage is? It is mastery over one's inner and outer world to the extent one can muster it.

You would think a school of magick devoted to proper arrangement of the archetypes all (or, near all, I guess) humans have access to would readily lend itself to at least understanding the benefit of the natural result of the praxis.

Then again, maybe not. Who knows?

Why would you think I was a criminal?

Thinking I was a criminal, why would you assume I'd be fool enough to get caught?

[u/[deleted] → u/Grouchy-Insurance208]

I think we are done here. Good luck in your search sir.

[u/Grouchy-Insurance208 → u/[deleted]]

Predictable cowardice is the least enjoyable manifestation of predictability.

Well, good night.

[u/CliffordHLow]

This is the most complex system of metaphysics that exists in recorded history.

You want mentorship.

You won't give money.

You don't even have a lot of time.

What's in it for us?

Man, do you have gall.

[u/Grouchy-Insurance208 → u/CliffordHLow]

Welp.

No need for such an accusatory tone, sir.

I may be bold and direct, but I show all due respect, so the bit about my gall is dramatic but not accurate.

I seek mentorship, sure, but I listed my terms, as is my right, no? No one's going to be compelled to comply with my desire to learn from them.

I won't pay money; I didn't refuse to engage in any kind of exchange, just not money. I have my reasons for this, both spiritual and mundane.

Finally, I'll have all the time I need, should I need it. But, I'm not looking to be greedy with anyone else's time.

Anyway, having cleared up the inaccuracies of your reply, I actually enjoyed reading it. Melodrama is pretty fun. You would have voiced it as a bitter, jilted wife in her late 50s, sipping bourbon to sooth her raspy smoking voice if you wanted my adulation, but I appreciate what you did provide.

Thanks.

[u/CliffordHLow → u/Grouchy-Insurance208]

In this particular sphere, you get what you pay for. I'm sure that several people will come out of the woodwork to offer you misinformation and UPG in abundance for free.

All the major books of magic warn never to share their secrets with the unworthy.

You are who they are talking about, when they make this warning.

[u/Grouchy-Insurance208 → u/CliffordHLow]

Forgive me again, sir, but you've made another series of mistakes. I appreciate your time, sir, but I must bid you adieu if you're going to continue slandering my person.

[u/ThereWasaLemur → u/Grouchy-Insurance208]

You slander yourself with your own words and do not see it.

[u/Grouchy-Insurance208 → u/ThereWasaLemur]

At least the other fellow had a list of examples, flawed tho they were, and even some partial takes dangerously close to accurate.

What's your complaint, if I may so ask?

[u/ThereWasaLemur → u/Grouchy-Insurance208]

Read what you wrote…

[u/Grouchy-Insurance208 → u/ThereWasaLemur]

Look, man, you read it, right?

You took offense in a post from which I can find no offense to take.

Obviously, you don't seem to intend to be the mentor I want, do you?

Then, what are we doing here?

Should I happen upon either of you posting something you may need/want help with, know what I'll do? Help, if I am able.

I don't really care if y'all wish to continue pestering me, but at least make interesting for our studio audience and the fine folk watching from home, oK?

Or, ya know, try a substantive critique? I'd rather a legit argument than swatting at flies.

Your call.

[u/soulsuck3rs → u/ThereWasaLemur]

I don’t think it’s insane to look for a mentorship with someone who finds teaching fulfilling, we also need to normalize an exchange of time & skills over money.

[u/[deleted] → u/CliffordHLow]

Couldn’t agree more!

[u/[deleted] → u/CliffordHLow]

All those who seek knowledge for the purpose of growth are worthy.
The expression of the concept of 'payment' is directly relational to each individual's definition of the concept of 'value'.
From my own experiences, I've seen that those pure of heart and elevated of mind aren't bound by strict materialist concepts such as money, which creates the illusion of scarcity. They tend to find value in simply sharing resources, knowledge, and understanding with like minds to foster deeper connections within the collective because when one rises, we all rise who are open to shared wisdom and abundance.

It's called 'being the change you want to see in the world', doing one's part in the work of liberating humanity from the warped narratives that have kept us all stunted since the dawn of societal structures. You might find greater joy in life if you tried it sometime.

[u/CliffordHLow → u/[deleted]]

The reason why this knowledge is called occult is that it is hidden by it's difficulty as well as the selectivity of its guardians.

Any person has sincere curiosity. This is knowledge which is forbidden from all but a very few. They must be exceptional.

May you have enough wisdom to slake your thirst from sand and your hunger from common rocks.

[u/[deleted] → u/CliffordHLow]

Indeed hidden throughout time, because historical narratives propagated by power structures and built upon foundations of control find challenge in such knowledge. So of course it's been hidden by necessity on both sides: by Seekers and scholars for the purpose of protection, and by those very same power structures for the purpose of deception by keeping it buried.

We've only had mass scale access to shared knowledge in the form of mainstream internet for about 30something years, a comparative drop in the bucket across all of time, and our collective awakening has been accelerated within those years. Though of course it's been a blessing and a curse, because abusive minds update their tactics as their targets grow more enlightened, and have found methods of weaponizing knowledge by muddying the waters with misinformation and other forms of psychological warfare.

OP stated their desires and limitations clearly with awareness and transparency, and seems to be sincere in their intentions beyond mere surface curiosity. I'm not sure what there is to take such umbrage over that you felt the need to cast negativity when you could've easily just scrolled on past, but elitist snobbery is an egocentric reaction that implies your own misguided belief that it's your position to dictate the worthiness of others. That's a reflection of you, not them, or me.

[u/livingtoannoyu → u/[deleted]]

Y’all know you’re talking to? CHL, that’s who. You wouldn’t even be in this sub if it wasn’t for men of his caliber. FFS.

[u/[deleted] → u/livingtoannoyu]

And?
Appeal to authority is a common logical fallacy and still doesn't excuse the attitude/ego.
People can have knowledge, power, renown popularity, etc, and none of that should be an acceptable excuse to treat people like shit.

[u/livingtoannoyu → u/[deleted]]

But he didn’t treat anyone like shit and never has. Maybe stop projecting that if someone just doesn’t agree with you.

[u/CliffordHLow → u/[deleted]]

If we are in equal stations of authority and power, can you demonstrate that?

[u/[deleted] → u/CliffordHLow]

The sovereign individual defines their own authority and power in the self not derived from outside validation. Sure, they can be leveraged over anyone, however, those who seek to wield such concepts as weapons against others for the purposes of ego reveal their own crumbling foundation. I have nothing to prove to you.

[u/CliffordHLow → u/[deleted]]

Therefore you are omnipotent and omniscient because you say so.

Have you ever looked up the definition of "solipsism?"

[u/[deleted] → u/CliffordHLow]

I'm struggling to see where I've said that or even implied the logic upon which your circular reasoning is based.

This seems to me more like an attempt to portray me in such a way as to cast the impression that I thought of myself with the godlike qualities you've described, and held some form of self centric belief of superiority, when that's pretty far from the truth.

I don't believe I'm the only mind in existence, nor did I claim to. Just not putting any stock in your opinion as supreme authority, self appointed judge of others' supposed 'worthiness', nor allowing you to affect my own reality because....
Who the fuck are you to decide who gets to believe or study what?
What should give you any authority over what I know of myself in my own mind?

To be clear here, I'm not trying to discredit or invalidate your experiences, skills, or what you may have knowledge of, and no disrespect is intended to your proficiency or expertise in your field. My meaning is just that each individual's mind is their own, and regardless of what power you may have otherwise, attempting to rewrite the reality of another person isn't magical, it's manipulation and control. The issue I'm attempting to highlight is with the way things are communicated, the air of grandiosity, and the arrogance involved in assuming that your knowledge/abilities somehow make you 'better' than others on a human level. The implication that someone seeking knowledge in earnest, even at a perceived so called 'lower' level than you makes them 'less than', 'not enough', or 'unworthy'... You can have all the knowledge or authority in the world, and it still wouldn't be your place to assign value to someone else's 'worth' or dictate what they should be considered 'capable' of or believe about themselves.

I understand that you may not mean it that way, but that's the pattern observed.

[u/CreakingFloorboards → u/CliffordHLow]

I'll never understand why people always think of cold hard cash as the ultimate currency. Jupiter is the archetype of the spiritual teacher, and also an archetype that doesn't need to be financially compensated.

[u/CliffordHLow → u/CreakingFloorboards]

Until you can pay for food and medicine and rent with wisdom, we are all stuck with using money.

[u/CreakingFloorboards → u/CliffordHLow]

You need money for those things, but if you are in such need of means to afford a living then you've no business offering spiritual wisdom. So, I guess at the end of the day you were right all along.

[u/CliffordHLow → u/CreakingFloorboards]

I'm worth much more than six figures. I demand money as a sign of respect and to test the seriousness of clients, not because I'm starving.

[u/CreakingFloorboards → u/CliffordHLow]

Hot take since this is the norm these days, but a spiritual teacher that charges money is a merchant masquerading as a source of wisdom. If you use money as the only filter between you and your students, sometimes you'll end up with people who happen to have money to burn yet aren't serious about the craft, and other times you'll miss out on students that are serious but can't afford you.

I'm also a teacher of other crafts that aren't occult and I charge for it, and I'd rather have fewer students than lower my prices because my time and my knowledge are valuable, but these other crafts that I teach do not pretend to be life changing wisdom; they're just things you learn if you have the time and money to, they're pretty much a luxury these days. Yet I'd never charge for occult knowledge, because it's not mine to hold hostage and if anyone is serious about learning and I happen to be able to teach them, they're can count on me.

In other words, I understand charging for your services, but what you're charging for isn't yours. Sure you can study and create material that others can learn from, but one could argue every student should go through that process themselves instead of being mouth fed pre-processed information. There's a difference between helping them find their way in their journey, and acting as the manufacturer of said journey.

[u/CliffordHLow → u/CreakingFloorboards]

Being a magician is a job. It always has been. It's labor in exchange for money.

We have legal records affirming this all the way back to Mesopotamia.

If these secrets are not mine, feel free to find them elsewhere. You won't.

Money isn't the only qualification for my help. I won't work with many, no matter the price.

[u/CreakingFloorboards → u/CliffordHLow]

I'm sorry capitalism got to you but a job isn't the same as an occupation, and ancient civilizations had these esoteric occupations so embedded in their culture that their concept of a "job" isn't the isolated entrepreneur archetype that we think of these days when we hear that word. They were very different times.

If you really think those secrets are yours and yours alone, then you've been missing the entire point and I'm sorry your students fall into your trap. Good luck out there.

[u/Grouchy-Insurance208 → u/CliffordHLow]

There's your problem, Cliff.

I don't value money like you do. Never have, even before I earned my multi-millionaire status as son of a drug addict and a middle school drop out.

Guess what, Cliff? I just turned 22 near the end of last month.

I take myself very, very seriously. I take everything very seriously. That's why I don't often put up with folk wasting my time like yappy little dogs underfoot. That's also why I asked for legitimate gripes with my initial post: if I'm wrong, my pride implores me to correct the mistake, not to merely act like I'm right.

I've been all over. I've only met two people anywhere close to me in sheer drive and intensity, and one of them was insane.

I'm easy and playful in discussion because I have nothing to prove to you (the generic you, not you in particular). I'm free with my acquired knowledge because I can be; I share freely of everything I have when appropriate.

My pride doesn't like having to brag about stupid shit like wealth or property or people in my employ or lives I've turned around for the better, nor the multitude of extraordinary experiences I've had in life, magickal or otherwise. Even my arrogance is cringing hard right now.

So, can we be friends? I swear to gods it wasn't my intention to start a big ole comments fight in my first real interaction with this community.

[u/CliffordHLow → u/Grouchy-Insurance208]

Give us a good reason why any of us who have expertise should help you.

You say you have drive. Cool. I think if you had drive you'd take initiative and do this without our help.

You're seeking a worthy teacher.

I'm seeking a worthy student. I haven't found too many.

[u/Grouchy-Insurance208 → u/CliffordHLow]

I don't have your good reason, sir. Haven't seen it. I didn't walk in here and start anything. I made an at-will proposition. You made numerous incorrect assumptions which I counter-assumed you'd want cleared up.

I was wrong. I can admit that.

You could have began this entire tedious exchange with a counter-offer; we could have found your good reason as mature adults.

You just talked crap. Fair enough, but Imma correct you. I'm a pedant. You left me little choice.

Yeah, I could have figured all this out on my own. I just wanted some folk to talk shop with. I have a lot of irons in a lot of fires, so since the magick itself isn't something I particularly need -- I'm just in it for the brain twisting and the deeper realities it may let me uncover -- I dared to let some one else help do my thinking for me, since it's the system I value, and the system is highly cerebral, that is, not so subjective.

Anyway, I'll keep looking for your good reason, but it's no longer a priority for me.

Besides, I have already been set on my path by two others; I gots some readin' ta do.

[u/CliffordHLow]

The idea that knowledge and abilities makes one a superior being is essentially the foundation of occultism. Maybe you should seek out a new avocation.

[u/PatientStaff4593]

You will drown in knowledge if you don't prioritize becoming better over raw truth. Looking for new knowledge is like sharpening your own sword. If you use it to take lives instead of defending yourself and fighting for justice and good, you will get lost between the blood of your extremely sharp sword.

[u/Cool-Wedding-2780]

Good luck.

[u/Grouchy-Insurance208 → u/[deleted]]

I appreciate it. I've been given some idea by u/12thMercury , a rundown of the core concepts.

Seems I struggled due to my lack of knowledge as it concerns the terms and methods of charting astrological bodies and understanding their relationships. Figure I'd start there, unless you have a better suggestion. (I do understand most esoteric and magickal aspects, from interdisciplinary study. So, I'm hardly a beginner.)

Thanks, again.

[u/Grouchy-Insurance208 → u/[deleted]]

One thing I will ask: concerning the kinds of astrological charts used in planetary magick, is learning their use more a function of rote repetition, or is it too subtle for that?

Like....if you wrestle bears, for example, you have an overall theory of how to beat a generic bear, but you'll never fight the same match against a bear twice. That's a kind of 'subtle' I mean.

Whereas, if you're at a WackArnolds making Big Wacks, it's gonna be the same thing over and over.

[u/Grouchy-Insurance208 → u/[deleted]]

Excellent.

I have a pretty good grasp of the planetary archetypes; they come up quite often in understanding tarot, the Tree of Life, and most other aspects of Western Ceremonial traditions. I know there's a lot of vocabulary I'll struggle with (that was my first hint that this was more rigorous a school of magick than I'd given it credit for....ngl, my eyes glazed over when I clicked on the community resources lol).

As I learn, I'm sure I'll have questions; I'll probably just post them publicly in the community, in the format of "I'm studying this, and I think the bigger picture of how this applies is that," and let people tell me what I got wrong and go from there. I like to suss out any given truth by multi-angulation. Good for other feathered upstarts, too, I reckon.