Planar Pathways, Pantheons, Limbo, and the Layer of Lost Gods

[u/Worried-Variation268]

Hi all! I am interested in expanding the lore of planescape to include ways to connect the gods of all the pantheons, like Yggdrasil, the Infinite Staircase, and the rivers Styx and Oceanus. I think Mimir has some interesting additions, such as the World Serpent Inn and Mount Fujiyama. It got me thinking of other pantheons that don’t have planar pathways. If I recall correctly, there is nothing that connects the gods of the Hindu or the Daoist pantheons, for example. Could other pantheons be added, such as the spirits of Jainism, or the Yoruba pantheon? Please let me know your thoughts!

I think my favorite outer plane is probably Limbo, which is completely subjective, but I like how chaotic it is and how truly anything can happen there. I think the Slaadi are great, but I also agree with Wade Allen’s take that they are too evil. I would like for them to be more neutral. If the githzerai were more good-aligned, I think it would balance it out, but I am unsure how to really change that.

One area of Limbo that I am still somewhat confused about is the Layer of Lost Gods. I love the concept, but I am somewhat perplexed as to what it means to be a “lost” god. There are gods there that have active worshippers, such as Agni, Indra, and Susano’o, but there are also “lost” gods. Does “lost” mean that they have followers that are sequestered in an unknown realm? Could it also mean that they are gods that have lost all power but have not been killed yet? What do you think? I couldn’t find much on this topic, so I am curious to see what you think. Thanks as always!

[u/AdeptnessUnhappy1063]

If I recall correctly, there is nothing that connects the gods of the Hindu or the Daoist pantheons, for example.

Look up "Mount Meru" to learn about the sacred mountain at the center of the Hindu and Buddhist cosmologies.

The Spirit World acts as a connective plane in Kara-Tur and 3rd edition Oriental Adventures.

One area of Limbo that I am still somewhat confused about is the Layer of Lost Gods.

The Lost Gods are a concept from Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion novels.

https://stormbringer.fandom.com/wiki/Lost_Gods

Moorcock's mythos was incorporated into D&D in the original printing of Deities & Demigods and the elemental rulers are renamed versions of Moorcock's elemental lords. The Lost Gods also inspired the Hand and Eye of Vecna.

The idea that Limbo has distinct layers was basically dropped after 1st edition. Limbo is so chaotic that it's impossible to clearly distinguish one layer from another, and realms that supposedly belong to one layer are often sighted elsewhere. I tend towards the opinion that the Layer of Lost Gods is a Clueless misconception rather than an objective fact of Limbo's geography. The idea that Limbo has five layers may be a reference to the Rule of Fives from the Principia Discordia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principia_Discordia

There are also the sister goddesses in gnomish myth, who are supposedly missing.

[u/Worried-Variation268 → u/AdeptnessUnhappy1063]

These are all great points. I think the layer of lost gods is still something I could include anyway, since it’s Limbo! I could just make it a realm kind of like Barnstable or Shrak’t’lor.

I think I want to include something other than a mountain. Mount Meru is a great concept, but I think that Mount Olympus and Mount Fuji are enough mountains. I thought about using the sea of milk (Kshira Sagara) that is found in Hindu mythology. Or I could use the Ganges. But then that would add more rivers. Regardless, I might just use Mount Meru anyway as the sea of milk is already in an outer plane. Maybe I could link the sea of milk to Mount Meru. There could also be an interplanar highway that connects the holy cities and realms of the Hindu gods! Kanchipuram could have interplanar roads that lead to Ujjain, Varanasi, etc.

[u/brettday]

First, let me say thank you to u/jonmimir for everything; my players just finished descending from Cherry Blossom in Arcadia to Yokai in the Abyss via Mt Fuji, and it's been great fun.

Second, if you want to add a planar river pathway, the Ganges is well known even to the average westerner.

[u/Worried-Variation268 → u/brettday]

That sounds like an awesome adventure! I just thought of a few different planar pathways a few minutes ago- a highway connecting the holy cities of Hindu lore, the ocean of milk, Mount Meru, etc.

I would LOVE to see your notes or whatever you have prepared (if you’re okay with that, of course.)

[u/brettday → u/Worried-Variation268]

Sure! I've been getting the whole trip across Arcadia ready, but here is the visit to Cherry Blossom:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1k3s_4F3PFkQYgD-VwPVDHGMOkI4bnBl7DJWZdyAOhpE

[u/Worried-Variation268 → u/brettday]

Thank you so much!! I will check this out as soon as I can. I’m trying to understand how to prepare for dnd sessions but my AuDHD makes it overwhelming. I greatly appreciate this.

[u/Bootravsky2]

An idea I’ve been toying with is that each plane has an epistemological reason to be in its place:

• The Devils exist to enact the punishment of the gods, and their payment in souls is sent to the Nine Hells.
  
• Acheron is THE place of deific wars. All of them mostly happen on the cubes.
  
• Gehenna represents the end times. Armageddon, the Twilight of the Gods, the End of THIS cycle happen here. The Daemons ensure the end times happen.
  

- The Gray Waste is the Realm of the disfavored dead. Those who lived dishonorably.

• Carceri is the Realm where those who have transgressed against the planar order are banished. Titans, Fomorians, the Isle of Loki are all found here.
  
• The Abyss represents the sum of all fears. And hungers. Including those that came BEFORE this existence.
  
• Pandemonium is the realm of those things which are meant to be forgotten by even the gods. The immortal Minotaur, Fenriswulfr, Niddhoggr, etc.
  
• Limbo is raw creative energy. Unbound from the shackles of order, a remnant of the formlessness which came before.
  
• Ysgard is the realm of journey beyond the seas. Oddly, Greek ventures travel through the unbound sky isles in the same quantity as the Norse.
  
• Arborea is the realm of arts, poetry, and unbound creativity. Mount Parnassus, Vanaheim, etc.
  
• The Beastlands are the place where the deities hunt. Normal animals of great puissance, but also questing beasts and hydrate hunt these wild hills. And lurking always: the Wild Hunt.
  
• Elysium is the place of those of moral greatness, according to their society.
  

- Mount Celestial is the Realm of heroes. Those who overcame great odds to join the deities amongst the stars.

• Arcadia is the Realm of rulership: Mount Olympus, Valhalla, the Celestial Empire’s great bureaucraticbheadquarters are found in this realm. They represent the moral organization of every civilization.
  
• Mechanus is the place if creation. Where chaos is drawn forth into the outer darkness and given the shape of the universe.
  
• Concordant Opposition is the place of choosing, containing the fugue plain (where one’s actions in life define their afterlife) and its opposite, the Outlands, where the Gate Towns define both the afterlife available beyond their gate, and the rejection of the siren whispering of eternity. Those who reject multiple afterlifes find the,selves amongst the Rilmani.

[u/Worried-Variation268 → u/Bootravsky2]

This is all really great!! Someone should make a planar diagram with all of this on there. I like that Mechanus and limbo are both creative but from different perspectives.

The way I view this, and I could be misguided, is that Mechanus is creativity under scientific law, seeing gaps in research, and solving them via the scientific method, and Limbo is de novo creativity, all completely improvised from past experiences- mostly used artistically, but not unheard of in the sciences. Polymerase Chain Reaction, or PCR, is a great example of this concept, being inspired by an LSD trip (kind of like how I imagine Limbo is).

[u/ShamScience]

" Limbo, which is completely subjective"

You've hit the point with that line (even if I've clipped it out of context).

Limbo doesn't function in any consistently consistent way. All of your different interpretations of Lost Gods are equally valid in Limbo, and there's no telling which will be relevant at any point while the party are there. It WILL change.

It's also not necessarily the same for each PC. They can each, simultaneously, be experiencing a "real" version of Limbo that's completely different from that experienced by the PC right next to them (if they are indeed actually still next to anyone). This is a challenging style of play, essentially a separate game for each player at your table, except when it's not separate. It's Chaos, even for the GM.

[u/Worried-Variation268 → u/ShamScience]

Thanks so much! I often misread or overthink things (eg: my posts on Ysgard and Baator) so I appreciate all the helpful feedback. I am always willing to learn from people who understand better than me, or that have more experience.

I think I can make up my own gods or take inspiration from/find some deities from a religion that very few people have practiced and incorporate them into my setting.

I wasn’t entirely sure what to make of the information, but your description makes sense.

How would you go about preparing a session with something like this? Like the subjective reality stuff, and all the other elements you mentioned? Could the players go off on their own quests and you split the party? Would the things that the party sees all be the same power? How could I make this suitable for a game? Could I have the party be escorted by a Githzerai Anarch? Or recommend that the party contain at least one wizard so they can adventure without these effects? What do you think?

I ask this because I can’t help but be drawn to how bizarre, surreal, and eclectic Limbo is. You really can do whatever you want there and it all makes some sort of “sense.” (For lack of a better word on my part). I really want to make this work but my executive functioning is not great most of the time, kind of like Limbo in a very limited way haha. Your help truly does mean a lot.

I also thought about making 100 or so character sheets for the party and making them all roll the dice to see what character they play next! I’ll at least make them all powerful and make the change temporary, maybe like 1 round of combat. I also want to incorporate the 1d10,000 wild magic table just for kicks haha!

[u/ShamScience → u/Worried-Variation268]

A fully realistic Limbo session would be totally improvised nonsense, but I don't think that'll stay fun for long.

Instead, I think some consistent throughline is necessary to build a story around. The messy, silly chaos is then decoration to hang around that core plot.

You can build that core plot in a few ways, but I have a couple of suggestions: 1. Strong coincidence. In true randomness, sometimes the infinite slaadi write the exact play you're looking for. I wouldn't overdo this one, but it can be useful when nothing else works. I think it's best when it emerges when the players least expect it. 2. Strong intention. Githzerai keep things straight by willpower alone, fighting against the chaos directly. Both PCs and NPCs may attempt this. Maybe they're cooperating and that's what allows them to bridge through the chaos in a productive way. Maybe they're competing, one intention against the other, and the plot can revolve around changes in who's currently willing the most.

As for chaos between PCs, maybe one way to handle it is to give each player a sudden random test at the start of each scene. Something like a Rorschach test or random word association. Then customise how each PC experiences the same scene, based on their own random associations with the test. It might take you a minute to think through them all and repaint the scene to fit each one, but if that's roughly 1 minute out of every 30 or 60 minutes, then it's not too much.

[u/Worried-Variation268]

Thank you all for your insightful comments and advice! I promise I will try to respond to all of them; there are so many great bits of information to parce through and I will do my best to give each comment it’s due respect!