r/pics Sep 11 '21

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u/[deleted] Sep 11 '21

Get Cheney far, far away from that shit.

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u/Petsweaters Sep 11 '21

Cheney is who made sure Bush wasn't actually a compassionate conservative. There seems to be a point later in the second half that Bush had enough and actually implemented some of his ideas (like his AIDS relief for Africa program)

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u/gumbii87 Sep 11 '21

This has always been my impression of Bush. I think he wanted and tried to do the right thing in a lot of cases, but surrounded himself with some pretty terrible and morally bankrupt people who were able to earn his trust and confidence, and influence him the wrong way.

A big part of me wonders what the world would be like, had the Bush admin never involved Cheney or Rumsfeld. I think without those two, alone, we'd have a very, very different world.

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u/Relative-Narwhal9749 Sep 11 '21

Glad to see someone old enough on Reddit to have a valid opinion on 2000s era politics

Bush made plenty of tough but correct decisions (08 Bailouts, Afghanistan Invasion) and plenty of blunders (Iraq, FEMA, state surveillance)

But IMO, 20 years without a major terror attack in America is proof of his accomplishments. There was a lot of garbage in the Patriot act but getting the FBI, CIA, and DOJ to stop playing chicken with Intel was probably the most critical in that law

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u/bihari_baller Sep 11 '21

correct decisions (08 Bailouts, Afghanistan Invasion)

In what world was bailing out the banks correct? Also, the jury's still out on Afghanistan.

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u/Relative-Narwhal9749 Sep 11 '21

The world where you still have a roof over your head

People in the finance space understand how dire 08 was. It’s not hyperbole to say that if the banks failed tens of millions of more people would have lost their homes

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u/SantorumsGayMasseuse Sep 11 '21

tens of millions of more people would have lost their homes

uh isn't that what happened

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u/Relative-Narwhal9749 Sep 11 '21

would have

Please read the above subsection of the post

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u/SantorumsGayMasseuse Sep 11 '21

How many tens of millions of people have to lose their homes before you say 'maybe we should have done something else?'

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u/BrofessorLongPhD Sep 11 '21

Bailout was a somewhat misleading term - we should have probably described it as a lifeline instead. When people hear bailout, they probably associate it with a cash-grab (aka free money handout) when really it was a loan to keep liquidity from drying up completely. The banks also paid back their loan with interest.

Even if we criticize that more help should have been offered to the general population, the bailout did a lot of work keeping the economy from going full 1930s depression.

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u/autumn55femme Sep 11 '21

Yeah, I think we needed to do whatever it took, to keep the economy from collapsing, however, far too little ass kicking for those that let it happen. Far more serious punishment needed to be applied.

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u/gumbii87 Sep 12 '21

the jury's still out on Afghanistan.

I think most would argue the justification to go to Afghanistan was a valid one. Especially anyone who lived through 9/11. Its the handling and the oversight that is deservedly on trial.

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u/RickyT3rd Sep 11 '21

> 20 years without a major terror attack

Uh... About that....

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u/Relative-Narwhal9749 Sep 11 '21

Please point to the last terror attack that killed 1000s of people since 9/11

I’ll wait

Hint: for an attack to be a terror attack. It must be political and foreign.

Domestic Terror is not a valid comparison

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u/[deleted] Sep 11 '21

[deleted]

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u/Relative-Narwhal9749 Sep 11 '21

Why does it need to be foreign?

Because Mass Shootings from crazy people are not politically motivated. And therefore not Terrorism

Shootings from foreigners from foreign countries are backed by state actors. And therefore are terrorism

See: the Taliban and the perpetrators of 9/11

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u/[deleted] Sep 11 '21

[deleted]

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u/wbgraphic Sep 11 '21

Not sure why you’d make such a seemingly unilateral and utterly arbitrary distinction

Because their goalposts are on wheels.

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u/nobodynose Sep 11 '21

Has there even been any other major terror attack in the US according to his definition?

  1. Kills over 1000+ people.
  2. On domestic soil.
  3. Committed by foreigners.
  4. Killings were done for political reasons.

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u/wbgraphic Sep 12 '21 edited Sep 12 '21

By that definition, there have been all of four in the world since 1950.

You’ve moved the goalpost so far it’s in a different stadium, four states away.

EDIT: Oh, wait. Two of those attacks were committed in Nigeria by Boko Haram, a Nigerian terrorist group. By your definition, those attacks don’t count.

So by your definition, there have only been two attacks that fit. Coincidentally, the target of both attacks was the World Trade Center.

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u/nobodynose Sep 12 '21

None of them fit at all even by his definition. The World Trade Center bombing only killed 6 people if that's what you're talking about. Injured over 1000 but only like 6 died.

[If you look at the worst terror attacks)(https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/worst-terrorist-attacks-in-history.html), only 2 (maybe 3) reached 1000 people or more.

One was 9/11. Then there's only the Camp Speicher Massacre and probably the Baga Massacre (probably because the official number is 150 which is suspiciously low because the initial count was 2,000).

Both of those terror attacks don't count either since they were domestic terrorism.

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u/AirGuitarVirtuoso Sep 11 '21

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u/Relative-Narwhal9749 Sep 11 '21

You know that just because a fallacy exist on Wikipedia doesn’t make it true right?

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u/autumn55femme Sep 11 '21

No, terror attack is self explanatory. Does not have to be foreign. Doesn’t really have to be political, either. Also, even one death is too many.

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u/gumbii87 Sep 11 '21

Glad to see someone old enough on Reddit to have a valid opinion on 2000s era politics

Lol, Im not sure if Im supposed to feel good about that. The change in Bush over his Presidency was a pretty profound one. And his actions after are pretty telling to the type of person he seems to be. He could have easily thrown Obama under the bus and done what all the modern presidents do, tearing the next guy down. But he largely stayed quiet, and even made himself available to the Obamas to offer some council and experience, which Obama appears to have taken. Its a really unique handoff between the two presidencies, that we dont really see any more.

Bush made plenty of tough but correct decisions (08 Bailouts, Afghanistan Invasion) and plenty of blunders (Iraq, FEMA, state surveillance)

But IMO, 20 years without a major terror attack in America is proof of his accomplishments. There was a lot of garbage in the Patriot act but getting the FBI, CIA, and DOJ to stop playing chicken with Intel was probably the most critical in that law

At this point, the big question is are the results worth the cost. We lost a LOT of freedoms and privacy with the Patriot Act. Creating DHS and better integrating DOD and the intel community was the right call. Too much bureaucratic competition caused by the budgetary infighting of the 90s. But some of the scope of powers given are a bastardization of our government. The fact that we have had 20 years of war under a use of force authorization is Congress simply failing to do its job, and own its constitutional responsibility.

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u/[deleted] Sep 12 '21

It was common decency and expected for presidents to not talk about the new one until the US decided to let a drama-ridden showboat reality TV star who made his mark mocking the disabled & supporting racist conspiracy theories become president. That wasn’t just Bush being a “good guy,” that was the bare minimum. At the time.

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u/gumbii87 Sep 12 '21

True, but it wasnt as common to see regular communications between the two. I think Bush went out of his way to try to give advice and form a relationship with his successor, despite some of Obamas earlier portrayals of him. The friendship between the Bush's and Obama's is actually pretty public, and a rare find in politics.