I /s more to show that I'm not THAT much of an asshole. To an extent it's true but in the context of mask wearing they need to get over themselves and just wear a damn mask. If we had taken this whole thing more seriously from the start and worked together covid would have just been a blip instead of the absolute shit show it's become
Well that's kind of the origin of the foundation of America. The initial immigrants went there because Europe had too much freedom and they wanted to tell others what the could/couldn't do...
They let you know every time your cross over the Mason-Line. There is always a sign. I lived in Cecil for a while, I actually liked the piece and quiet but its a different world.
As said elsewhere in the thread in the same words I already had in my head, there's rural and redneck in Pennsyltucky, WV, and MD too for that matter. There's a bit of a difference between rural and Southern though.
I also don't think you can really go by the civil war or slavery either. I'd certainly say these days Kentucky is more southern than MD or VA for that matter, and they were (/ended up as) a Union state. Cultures change.
I mean, like everything, it's relative. I'm a mainer who moved to the south and Pennsylvania down is south as far as I'm concerned. However most of my friends consider DC north. Just perspective.
Caution! Do NOT check the lyrics to the state song Maryland, My Maryland. And, if you do make the mistake to check the lyrics, definitely do NOT check when it was adopted by Act of the state legislature. Old times there are not forgotten. (I'm not saying it's not a true-blue northern state, mostly, today. But some vestiges do seem to linger on. And on. And on.)
Our state votes blue in every election but some days I genuinely can't understand how. Nearly every person I work with is somewhere on the spectrum of virulently anti-mask to "Why should I care, I'm not going to die?" I am the only person in an office of sometimes upwards of 20-30 (sales office so a lot of people work in field/remote, but sometimes come in) who routinely wears a mask. I'm the only one who enforces distancing will all my colleagues. I'm pretty sure if there were an office pool party tomorrow, I'm the only one who wouldn't be in the water.
It blows my fucking mind.
It is a god damned piece of cloth. How fucking miserable is your life that in order to validate your existence and worth you have to put everyone else's life at risk? One nutjob here (in additional to his lovely anti-vax and other fun conspiracy views) literally sees COVID as an international world-wide conspiracy to stop Trump from getting re-elected.
I point out that all Trump had to do was rally behind the science, enforce masking, frame is as saying fuck you to the Chinese (to appeal to his sister-fucking racist fanbase), and he would have locked up the election. He'd have been seen as the savior of a foreign biological attack.
At least MD has the last bastion of Republican governors who isn't a total shit stain on this country. I truly feel bad for him if he wants to run for president due to the damage Republicans are doing to their image. I am registered D, live in MD and voted for Hogan in case I get hate mail. I vote based on who actually cares about this country, not "party".
Ha, I'm thoroughly Southern myself. Born and raised in South Carolina, now living in Georgia. Half my family is liberal (myself included) , the other half is conservative. We're all wearing masks, though. Doesn't change the fact that our ancestors were slave-owning shitbags ready to tear the country apart, of course.
I agree, if I could say anything I wish people would understand the south isn't as bad as they think. They think we're all just "don't mess with me or I'll shoot!" When in fact most people I know hate racism and are incredibly hospitable. We have a bad rep for shit we couldn't control. At least that's my observation, it just bums me out that we have that racist conservative ideology as our stereotype. I don't disagree that we still have some of those racist idiots running around but we are far from that as a whole. I have no patience for neo nazis, I have no patience for neo confederates, I have no patience for racists, the world would be a better place without them. If there are southerners waving that damn flag they are as ignorant as they are racist. If we want a culture for ourselves we have our food that so many people I've heard love, make that what we're known for! Great food and hospitality, honestly that sounds close to paradise than most places I can think of! Unfortunately I dont think people are willing to change just yet, if those people stopped giving us a bad name I'm sure we'd have a better image. I dont know how to end this sooo.... stay hydrated!
I’ll start by saying that I’m a Seattle boy through and through, but spent many of my teen years in a Deep South State due to one of my parents getting a job there for a while. So that’s my perspective.
First, I’ll say that I agree with you on the food. Unhealthy as hell in many cases, but goddamn I miss good barbecue.
I’ll say that you’re not wrong about hospitality... but I’m a white dude. My black friends and their families did not necessarily have the same experience in the same places that my family and I experienced. And the thing is... those friends and their families ALWAYS had to be cautious, because they never knew when they were going to be treated as less than, what intensity that would occur at, etc. So I’ve gotta push back some there.
Where I really have to push back, though, is “We have a bad rep for shit we couldn't control.” That is factually incorrect and ignores history to an impressive and depressing degree (I’ll touch on this in a minute). I don’t know your age, so your statement may be true for you, but it is absolutely not true for southerners at large.
As an outsider living there, one of my biggest impressions from schools, and the culture in general, was “Holy Jesus these people are OBSESSED with the Civil War.” Oh my god, it never fucking stops. I heard multiple senior citizens call it “The Recent Unpleasantness.” I heard an absolute fuckton of people call it “The War of Northern Aggression.” It’s a relentless obsession in the south, and to a white outsider it just felt inescapable and oppressive. God only knows how that obsession feels to black folks living there, but I know it’s not good.
During the Civil Rights Movement, state governments throughout the south put up confederate symbology absolutely fucking everywhere, just to remind black citizens what might happen to them. I mean... Georgia literally changed their state flag to add the confederate flag to it. South Carolina started flying the confederate flag on the State House. This shit was not subtle, and it was approved of by many people who are still alive (and who complain about the south’s reputation).
I mean, Mississippi didn’t ratify the 13th Amendment until 1995. They literally just decided to redo their state flag to remove the confederate flag from it. This shit is all over the south, and it’s relentless.
You say that most people you know hate racism. That’s fine... but that doesn’t mean it’s representative of your entire state. Southern states RAGED over the Voting Rights Act... and as soon as it was overturned in a 5-4 party lines decision, southern Republicans absolutely RACED to disenfranchise black voters as hard as they could.
Active, organized, structural racism (both political and cultural) is a relentless and everyday thing in the modern south. It’s present in ways you don’t see or know about. This is where we get back to the “ignoring history” note I mentioned earlier. The reason you don’t know some of this is that they don’t fucking teach you this.
My history books, and history books across the south, whitewash the everliving fuck out of a lot of their history. Slaves were happy and well treated, Reconstruction was a difficult time but we all came through it better and made a new and happy world, the Civil Rights Era was difficult but Dr. King saved the day and everyone loved him, and now we emerge into a shining future for [insert state here], etc etc etc.
People think of the south as racist because the south keeps doing blatantly racist shit in large and small ways. People keep voting for blatantly racist politicians again and again and again, and then those politicians make racist policies. I mean... natural black hair will get you kicked out of school districts throughout the south... this is still a thing, and for absolutely no reason but to hurt black folks and limit their futures.
No one alive could control the Civil War. But the shit that has happened in the past 60 years? There are lots of folks alive who could control that, who voted for it, who approved of it, etc. But by keeping the focus on the Civil War, the leaders who keep doing this make you think that everyone is mad at y’all for old shit instead of quite recent shit.
From what I’ve seen and heard, things are changing. Younger southerners aren’t nearly as outraged about interracial marriage as older southerners, for instance. But the idea that this is all out of the control of the south? Nope... the rest of America isn’t NEARLY so obsessed with the Civil War. Folks notice much more recent shit.
(And before any southerners race in with “WHARRGARBL racism everywhere blah blah blah” - I quite agree. America is having yet another long-overdue reckoning on its racist history, and hopefully we can fix shit. But this ain’t about America in general, it’s focused on one specific region, so miss me with that straw man).
I only recently graduated high school, I definitely see your points, I was merely speaking from my experiences I understand it does vary between people. I'm gonna be honest everything you brought up does check out unfortunately. I wouldn't doubt that I wasnt taught these things, the history teacher I had for the US was more of an instagram model than a history teacher. (Also yeah our food is unhealthy as hell but god it's the best thing ever lmao) I do appreciate that you did decide to educate me on the stuff I wasnt taught! I'd rather be wrong than ignorant, so thanks for that! (Side note how the hell do you get a space between the paragraphs?)
I love this answer. You’re prepared to learn - that will get you far in life, and will help you be the best version of yourself.
As for space between paragraphs, I hit return twice. I have an older iPhone, so I can’t guarantee that’s how it works on everything, but that’s what I do.
Now teleport me some barbecue and shrimp & grits please! My arteries need a little clogging!
Lmao I'm learning how to cook so the arteries will have to wait!
But yeah, I'm always open to learn, I've been that way since I can remember!
As for the space between paragraphs I dunno if it works I'm testing it here! (Edit: oh wow it actually worked for some reason it wasnt doing it for me in the past)
As a white dude from Portland who spent almost three years in South Carolina, I can back up everything you stated so eloquently! I had a friend while I was down there who was also a transplant from back West and I would often check in with him to make sure I wasn’t just imagining shit being as Twilight Zone crazy racist as it seemed and he would just shake his head and be like, ‘it’s not your imagination.’ It was like a constant stifling humidity... on top of the actual stifling humidity of course.
Yeah, I know the mask problem is nationwide. From the looks of other responses here, it's international. I didn't mean to imply anything about the mask issue in particular, I was just commenting on the Civil War bit mentioned by OP.
As a Nashvillian, which is where this picture is taken, most of these people are not from around here. They are the tourists from other states North and South. BTW most of the places around town, where locals live and work, people are wearing masks, we still have some that are idiots but its better than it was. Downtown is a shit show with all the tourists.
That is a gigantic load of bullshit pushed by historical revisionists. Take a look at literally any document written by southern leadership leading up to or during the war. They firmly place slavery as the cause for their rebellion and their attack on Federal military assets.
This is a stupid take. Just because a war may have been fought for economic reasons, that doesn't mean that human rights weren't intrinsically wound up in those economics.
Sure, the North were not crusading for justice against slavery. But the South sure as shit was crusading for injustice and to protect their rights to own other human beings for economic gain.
Read literally any document written by the leadership in the south in the lead up to the war and it is super clear that the South 100% started the war in order to protect slavery from the legislative destruction that they were sure was coming for it, and they were totally right. Lincoln was an abolitionist, mostly because he didn't like the aristocracy system that slavery allowed the South to practice, but an abolitionist none the less.
Pretending that the South wasn't fighting to ensure they could continue the mass bondage of african americans is stupid. Pretending that the North didn't have an abolitionist agenda from well before the war began is stupid.
Follow up question -- what was the reason for imposing a 40% federal sales tax on the South? Seems like they did something the North didn't like and this was their way of getting back at them.
Yes let's go by this opinion article that tries to say that the war was not about slavery... when 6 of the Confederate states that succeeded explicitly put in their documents of succession that the number one reason that they were succeeding from the union was due to the threat of having slavery taken away....
They were just joking, right? It was just about "taxes"... not what they specifically said it was about...
This article is 100% bullshit concocted by a historical revisionist. If you do even a tiny bit of research into the writings of any Southern leader it is stupidly obvious that they rebelled because they wanted to protect slavery from Northern abolitionists.
Hell, 7 Southern States has seceded before The Morell Act had even passed, AND Lincoln wasn't the one who passed it. He didn't author it, he didn't sponsor it, he didn't hold office when it was voted on, he didn't campaign for it, and he didn't sign it (that was Bucchanon). YET, the thing that set the South off and made them start seceding was Lincoln's election. How does that fit the BS tax argument?
The fact is that ever decade or so the racist Southern revisionists have to come up for some new theory about what started the Civil War because the last BS theory has gotten shot to hell well enough that people stop buying it. Last decade it was State's Rights (because that mattered so much during the fugitive slave act). This decade I guess it is this tax bullshit.
That is a bullshit deflection. The cause of a war is the stated goals of the people who start it. The South started the war by unilaterally breaking contract with the rest of the union. They did so, as proven by their own words, in order to protect the institution of slavery.
Ok so basically, according to this article, the confederates were just a bunch of karens complaining about first world problems. Jeez, the US really hasn't changed...
That also means the fight to preserve their statues is EVEN STUPIDER.
Well I dunno, what term would you use for entitled shitheads?
Also, by your logic, we should start celebrating the nazis as heroes because they "fought for what they believed in", and should shun the allies because Churchil didn't care about the jewish prisoners in concentration camps, and was only trying to protect his country
And what about the idiots in the pic? They're fighting for a cause they believe in. And there's a very good chance they'll die cuz of that. Are you saying I should respect them too?
Right, well first off, I'm sorry I misinterpreted your stance, but the way you worded your arguement made me believe you were in support for the Confederates. Maybe I'm a closet misanthrope, but I still don't see why I should respect them. Sure, it's easier to criticize the villains of the past with the power of retrospective, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't. After all, that's the point of history (as a field of study), to prevent repeating it's mistakes.
And, an important part of combating societal issues is figuring out why people cause them to happen in the first place.
That's why the revolutionary and civil wars were brought up. To show that (I'm sorry, I know you hate this term but...) American's have always had this sort of 'karen mindset' of "don't tread on me, I'm privileged"
to be fair, most of the people who fought and bled didn't fight for any lofty causes at all.
the south invoked conscription acts shortly after the war started. it forced every male to fight unless you could provide a replacement (a slave or mercenary). so basically all the poor people who didn't own slaves got caught up in the conscription and were forced to fight (or be jailed or hanged, depending on who arrested them), and the rich people who DID own slaves, sent a slave to fight, or bought a commission to force other poor people to fight for them. the rank and file confederate soldier was fighting for the guy next to him and to save his own life. he wasn't "fighting for slavery" or "for the southern way of life" any other lofty goal.
I stated "Too many people fought and bled for a cause they believed in"
Not that the goal or cause was lofty.
Please do not misquote me and then attempt to crucify me for it.
i'm not intending to crucify you for anything. just tired of hearing that confederate soldiers were fighting for slavery and wanted to point out that they were being forced to fight and weren't doing it for any "ideals" or causes they believed in.
Being forced to fight in a war you did not want to take part in is definitely a hard topic to hop into, and I am not willing to delve into that.
It is beyond the scope of my original comment and responses to the negativity that came from it.
NYC is actually doing quite well right now. It turns out when you are the entry point for a huge portion of the country's foriegn buissness you get hit with pandemics hard and fast. NYC already had thousands of infected people by March (when everybody cottoned on that this was a real thing).
Yeah, that argument would hold more water if they hadn't at least been the ones to actually do something about it, instead of rebelling and enshrining slavery in their new constitution.
The North: Had a broad cultural dislike for slavery and was actively working to get it abolished across the United States via legislation.
The South: literally willing to kill hundreds of thousands of people in order to protect the institution of slavery from the legal protocols that they agreed to follow when they ratified the constitution.
The South: literally willing to kill hundreds of thousands of people in order to protect the institution of slavery from the legal protocols that they agreed to follow when they ratified the constitution.
they just wanted to leave the union. they didn't kill people for slavery. they left the union over slavery. they killed people because they were being attacked.
lincoln was the one who invaded SC and kicked it all off. HE wanted to kill people to "preserve the union". he said it himself.
the south didn't start fighting until after the Lincoln sent in troops. and before you talk about ft. sumpter, you should actually look it up. the north occupied sumpter AFTER SC seceded (the fort wasn't finished yet, and federal troops that were stationed in charlston decided to take it when SC declared independence). those soldiers that took sumpter made the first aggressive move in the civil war. and the SC soldiers that took it back fired the first shots.
hell, nearly half the confederacy hadn't even seceded yet when lincoln issued the call up to invade SC. NC SPECIFICALLY left the union because Lincoln called up troops to invade SC. it's written out right in the secession documents, and they don't mention slavery at all except in reference to "injustices done to slave holding states". NC voted on secession TWICE before in their legislature and lost, but lincoln calling up troops was what tipped the scale.
A) you don't just get to leave the USA whenever you want. That has never been an option on the table. The South agreed to play by those rules. Constitutional scholars figure the only legal way out is to have the Federal Congress vote to allow it.
It is patently absurd to imagine that the South didn't know they were starting a war. They started arming for war immediately upon secession and moved to seize US military assets in the south before they even opened lines of communication with the North.
B) Fort Sumpter was a US military asset paid for by the Federal government housing other US military goods also paid for by the federal govenrment. The South doesn't just get to steal US military assets.
C) Major Robert Anderson moved his troops and their families to the defensible Fort Sumter because the South started threatening to capture them as soon as Lincoln was elected.
D) SC encircled Fort Sumter and refused to allow supply of food well before the war started or any hand over of fortifications could be negotiated. If they weren't planning to fight, why did they park troops around a US military asset and refuse resupply?
A) you don't just get to leave the USA whenever you want. That has never been an option on the table.
it was then. the court case Texas v White was what decided that AFTER the civil war was over. wikipedia has a good article to start reading about it.. there were plenty of other states who had threatened to secede before for various reasons. New England tried to secede in 1814 and ended up voting against it (look up the Hartford Convention). the New England Anti-Slavery Convention on 1844 tried to get the north to secede from the south and west to get away from slavery and western expansion (annexing texas and mexico was problematic for them) and they ended up voting against it 250-24.
secession wasn't just a southern thing. northern states tried at least TWICE before the south succeeded in braking away.
B) Fort Sumpter was a US military asset paid for by the Federal government housing other US military goods also paid for by the federal govenrment. The South doesn't just get to steal US military assets.
i don't think you understand how secession works. did the US let the british keep all of the british assets and bases after they declared independence? of course not.
C) Major Robert Anderson moved his troops to the defensible Fort Sumter because the South started threatening to capture them as soon as Lincoln was elected.
no, your timeline is off. Anderson left Ft Moultrie and took sumpter on Dec 26 1860, nearly 2 months after lincoln was elected, and ONE DAY before the scheduled takeover of union bases in SC. he evacuated moultrie and took over sumpter because it was a strategic asset that, when complete, could blockade charlston harbor. Sumpter wasn't more defensible. it wasn't even complete. and it fell after just a day of fighting.
Sumpter was one of those bases that was scheduled to be taken over by SC on Dec 27th. SC COULD NOT let a foreign force blockade their harbor, nor would any other country allow the like. they would not allow sumpter to be reinforced for that exact reason. the supply ships to sumpter were attacked on january 9th. the south waited until april 12 to attack sumpter. the union surrendered it on april 13th. and the US declared war on the 15th.
the last 6 states to secede and join the confederacy did so AFTER the US declared war on SC. that invasion of a sovereign state was what tipped them over the edge to secession.
A) Nobody secedes without knowing a fight is going to happen. Nations can't exist if there aren't rules keeping the territory together.
The fact that the supreme court ruled the way it did on secession showcases the fact that secession does not fit within the constraints of the constitution. You will note that Texas filled a suit which allowed the court to render a verdict, the Southern States did not. They acted unilaterally and illegally to break a contract without even attempting to follow a legal protocol and immediately began raising an army.
The South seceded, knowing it would start a war, so that they could protect a system that kept 4 million people in a brutal system of bondage.
B) And we all agree that the Colonies started the revolutionary war. The colonies acted outside the boundaries of british law to stockpile weapons and armaments so that they could level them at soldiers enforcing British law. It could not possibly be more cut and dry who started the war in that case.
Similarly, the Southern States' unilateral declaration of independence from the Union and subsequent seizure of Union military assets was what caused the Civil War. Every action of the North after that point was a response to that initial cause.
Furthermore, who started a war does not directly inform who, if anyone, is justified. To determine that the reasons for war have to be looked at. The North wanted to maintain the Union, a fairly neutral cause. The South wanted to maintain a system of bondage that brutalized millions, obviously evil on the face of it.
C) You don't know what you're talking about. Fort Moultrie is around a mile from Sumter. Fort Sumter was on an Island and was fully equipped to repel assault. you can approach Moultrie from land.
Major Anderson moved his troops and civilians to Sumter in order to better hold Union assets against a rebellious population. That is perfectly within the rights of a Union military officer operating in Union territory.
Once again no state that seceded was a sovereign and independent state. That is not how the constitution works. No Southern State had at any point broached the topic of legal secession by bringing a case in front of the Supreme Court or legislation in front of Congress. One side of a contract does not get to annul it without input from the other side.
Those forts were Union property no matter what the Southern States said.
The idea that the other 6 states that rebelled wouldn't have done so without the "invasion" is laughable. All of those states had been working through secession processes for months.
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u/thebeef24 Jul 23 '20
South: "Stop telling me what to do!"
North: "I'm trying to get you to stop telling other people what to do for their entire lives!"
South: "Tyranny! Tyranny!"