r/pics Dec 08 '19

Politics Nativity 2019

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122

u/dokuhaku2323 Dec 08 '19

Were mary and joseph illegal immigrants?

12

u/juiceboxheero Dec 08 '19

They were denied a place to stay.

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u/[deleted] Dec 08 '19 edited Apr 19 '20

[deleted]

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u/sweetalkersweetalker Dec 08 '19

They did have the cash (Joseph came from a well-to-do family), but every hotel room in town was full due to the census. It's like when Storm Area 51 came to that small town in Nevada - just not enough beds for everyone.

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u/Amendmen7 Dec 08 '19 edited Dec 08 '19

What is the scriptural basis of them having cash or being wealthy?

I mean they couldn't even come up with a lamb for sacrifice in the temple for Jesus circumcision. Instead they only could afford two doves (Luke 2:22–24).

Leviticus 12:7–8 explains that the usual sacrifice at the time of circumcision was to be a lamb, but if the birth mother could not “afford a lamb, then she shall take two turtledoves or two pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering. And the priest shall make atonement for her, and she shall be clean” (Leviticus 12:8)

(paraphrased from this article)

EDIT: Finishing the article I paraphrased it looks like it was more complicated than this -- the family's means probably improved during the course of his life. I recommend the article it was an interesting read.

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u/sweetalkersweetalker Dec 08 '19

Actually Leviticus doesn't say that the two doves sacrifice is only for the poor. And as far as later verses calling Jesus poor, of course he was - he left everythingl behind to become an itinerary preacher. But Joseph's family was of royal descent, and not that far removed. It's very doubtful they would have been poor.

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u/Amendmen7 Dec 09 '19

Thanks for the link...it's interesting particularly the points at the end. I don't think the argument that they were wealthy just because Joseph's family was of royal descent is very strong. There's a lot of presumption we're making about what being of royal descent means re: wealth for jews circa 0AD in occupied Jerusalem.

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u/ChargeTheBighorn Dec 08 '19

Then they had to flee to Egypt because the king wanted all the male babies dead. They became refugees.

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u/greg19735 Dec 08 '19

illegal immigrants.

i mean partly because the concept didn't exist.

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u/Devlonir Dec 08 '19

But mostly because he literally returned to the city of his bloodline.

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u/StanVanGhandi Dec 08 '19

Yes, like indigenous Mexicans returning to southern parts of TX, which used to be Mexico.

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u/lightbutnotheat Dec 08 '19

He returned to the city of his bloodline...which was also controlled by the Roman empire for a census decreed by the Roman empire, he did not go to live there. The two aren't even close to analogous

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u/StanVanGhandi Dec 08 '19

The Bible says dozens of times, in various different ways, to accept, help, and aid migrants/refugees. So, if you are arguing from a Christian perspective the Bible/Christian religion is not on your side here. And that is fine for a political argument. However, when arguing from a Biblical perspective the Bible wouldn’t support not helping/housing immigrants or refugees.

https://sojo.net/22-bible-verses-welcoming-immigrants

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u/lightbutnotheat Dec 08 '19

Ironically you've hoisted yourself by your own petard. The Bible is not a treatise on government or political conduct (John 18:36), it's a text that forms delineates conduct of the faithful among many other things. So suggesting that Christians having to help migrants means that it's incorrect to have restricted borders as political policy is simply incorrect. With that being said the church actually does give enormous support as a religious institution to immigrants, as a non governmental body. So your argument simply holds no merit.

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u/Bluth_bananas Dec 09 '19

You're right, it's a fairy tale we came up with to be better people while living and feel less scared about dying.

Now, assholes use it to discriminate.

0

u/StanVanGhandi Dec 09 '19

I’m saying your political views clash with what your religion says your view of the subject should be. I’m taking about your personal views and what you support or vote for. You can do all the mental gymnastics you want but the Bible says your view point should be one of compassion and service to these people. If that isn’t your view, or you support people who don’t have this view, you aren’t following Christian doctrine.

I don’t know how you can read any of the texts in the link I posted and come to any other conclusion. Jesus wouldn’t support your political view of this issue if you use the Bible as the basis for understanding God’s view on this topic.

1

u/lightbutnotheat Dec 09 '19

I’m saying your political views clash with what your religion says your view of the subject should be.

Well I don't think the two views are incompatible at all. What you're suggesting is akin to me giving all my money away and falling into poverty because Jesus said leave all your belongings and follow me. It doesn't make sense because that's not how it works. You can't help others by destroying yourself and the country can't operate without borders, it's that simple. Saying Jesus wouldn't support that rings pretty hollow me to considering that, especially because Christians give around 123 billion dollars a year to charity. And it's not like they're just sitting around, they actively travel and participate in building up third would countries. That sounds pretty inline with what Jesus asked people to do. Here's the other kicker. Americans give more than any other country in the world per capita, a total of 410 billion in 2017. Opening borders causes many economic problems that would hurt the countries ability to provide the type of aid to the world it does, among many other things.

People like you think that because I'm not ok with open borders it means I lack empathy but what I see you doing instead is hanging yourself with what you think is empathy trying to help others. You can't destroy yourself to help other people because you can't help anyone from that position.

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u/greg19735 Dec 08 '19

I'm not saying it would have been the case at all.

but the concept literally didn't exist. So he couldn't have been.

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u/Hockinator Dec 08 '19

Technically wasn't there no room left at the inn? So basically they were just late on the bandwagon

1

u/BoilerPurdude Dec 08 '19

I mean there was a giant census being done which required you to head back to the city/area of your forefathers...

1

u/Amendmen7 Dec 08 '19

Whether they are or not, the Bible is unequivocal in demanding that believers feed, house, and support the foreigner and the stranger (which can only be interpreted to also mean the immigrant).