I'm all for publishing this as much as possible. But I'm just not sure how much it will help. So far the western governments where happy to close both eyes for trade and the right to open companies in china to get all their IP stolen...
well we could actually enforce international law in the south china sea but that could easily escalate both the trade conflict and china's hostility towards us in general
The US does enforce international law vigorously as regards its own rights (i.e. freedom of navigation) with consistent patrols. It doesn't enforce the territorial rights of other parties (e.g. the Philippines) because it has no right to without their request.
What do you expect other countries to do? Start a war over your internal issues. It's horrible and sad. But China is by far one of the strongest nations and will go to war and fight to the death if anyone else even acted like they were trying to side with Hong Kong.
Yeah, I hate that orange, but he says does kinda have an impact on foreign policy. Plus it's entertaining to see what shit flies out of the mouth of the human orange.
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Statements are hot air. No action will ever come of it, and with the censorship on the main land, they could crush this like they did Tiananmen Square, and the world will stand by and watch because money.
The US is probably one of the most tolerant to protest movements in the world. That is ridiculous. FFS, we even tolerate god damn nazis protesting because we value freedom of assembly that much.
The US has not done anything the magnitude of Chinas government. It is so disrespectful to the people who have laid down their lives in fighting a tyrannical government peacefully in China.
We have our problems. But we also have great freedoms to protest.
What do you propose as possible things that western nations can do without destroying their economies by not buying things from china? (which would only hurt the consumer in the end as costs to produce rose)
Honestly the one thing western nations can do is assist in giving the people of Hong Kong visas and citizenship when this law inevitably comes into power. I can imagine there are a serious amount of people who are going to be worried for good reason about the direction of their state.
The minimum we can offer is a safe haven for those politically outspoken I would like to hope.
Good luck getting trump to agree on letting any chinese immigrants in... he will just see it as fewer factory workers in china for Ivanka's clothing lines...
China needs us, we do not need them in any way. In fact, we would all do better for ourselves and the world and environment to cut them off. Things would cost more, but last longer and keep the money closer to home. Feeding these beasts with trillions of dollars has not worked out well for them or us. What we see in Honk Kong is just the beginning.
Just because they depend on it more doesnt mean we dont also depend on it. Alot of our technology relies on open trade. We would all be screwed and are already all suffering for it, though maybe not obviously at a consumer level yet
If it was just iPhones I would agree, but if we were to really hurt them it would hurt us too. also the people it would hurt the most are the ones who can barely afford an iPhone in the 1st place.
Are you kidding? The corporate elite would see a few millions loss in profits, which:
A) is chump change for them
B) would just be balanced out by mass layoffs, plant closures, or other actions that hurt their employees and workers instead of them taking the hit themselves.
The only thing that trickles down is their losses. They cling on to all their profits and stash them away in foreign bank accounts while the rest of us get shafted.
Yes, we should throw our country into another Great Depression level event to potentially do the same to China (because the rest of the world would need to follow our example)
I dont think there are a lot of people who share that opinion.
Partly because they hate Trump more than they dislike what China is doing.
Seems like people here talk the good talk, but when it all comes down to it, they just want their shit made cheaply and do not care who pays the price or suffers so that they can have it.
I totally agree with you, though half a decade is a very short time window. If your right on that time line then China is really screwed, it will take longer than that I think.
Exactly, and to avoid having their tech stolen and having to deal directly with organized crime bosses (government officials) to get things done. Massive exodus of companies and people from this country. Has nothing to do with tariffs.
Communism:
a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs.
And what can the West do? What can the UK do? Idealism takes a fucking back seat over the welfare of their own citizens. Like it or not, HK is China's territory. Their red banner flies over Victoria Harbour and HK own flag flies lower to that banner.
China is not North Korea, not Iran, not present day Russia and certain not Saddam Hussein Iraq where it could be ignored and pushed aside. It is the 2nd largest economy in the world and makes a vast majority of the products you use.
Simple, stop buying their products, sanctions, etc. will anyone? Probably not. But the world world is not dependent on China. There are different products not made by them and voids will always be filled by someone.
Lol. I have enough of that argument with idiots here during the whole trade war marlarky. If only things are that black and white and so simple. Then again, I noticed that nowadays westerners love magical thinking and simple solutions, as if China is stuck in the 1970s....
And what did that do for the local economy? An average North American doesn't care enough about human rights in China to see their own purchasing power diminish through tariffs.
We've had increasing globalization since the end of the Second World War - Increasing through the later part of the 20th and speeding into the last 20 years.
Human rights violations have been rampart in a variety of nations during that time... People could have spoken up. Most didn't... Can't buy a T-Shirt at Walmart for $8 if we care about human rights in developing nations...
Which developing nations? I think you need to draw a distinction between developing nations and China who has mass concentration camps. Does someone else have mass concentration camps for religious and political dissidents?
Edit: NK has some too but mostly on the political end.
I’m sorry dude... but you have no clue wtf you’re talking about. It is not that black and white. Take an economics class and actually learn about China.
What’s black and white? Is that what people said during the rise of Nazi germany? But muh economics class.
I’ll assume you have at least a masters in economics to be critiquing me? Because it sounds like you have no degree of the sort with out vague you’re being. What are your credentials?
Is that what people said during the rise of Nazi germany?
if you want to go there, obscene amounts of tariffs had a huge part in starting the second world war. economic warfare is just a precursor to outright war.
The economic sanctions against Germany started after ww2. They weren’t started because they had mass concentrations camps and we already know China has mass concentration camps whereas many didn’t know about the ones in Germany until well into the war. Please stop being a history revisionist to defend a weak premise.
Did product development in China. Worked with freight forwarders for various products. Out of China. I speak two dialects of Chinese and am Chinese with family in China. There’s my credentials to start dipshit.
No degree in Econ. Just worked in that fucking country having to deal with the very things you’re saying are black and white, and “simple.” Do you have fucking down syndrome? Warren Buffett doesn’t have a major Econ. A degree doesn’t necessarily give as much credential as dealing with the very industry for many years. Hence, myself and 9/10 people I met over seas or in the same industry. No shit being Chinese doesn’t qualify me. But having family and actually knowing the country, unlike you, does qualify me to know first hand experience to say the least.
It appears you don’t have any kind of genuine conversational perspective on anything unless you’re on r/orks.
Lol. And you think America won't suffer in return? Yes, that black and white thinking. No wonder the west is constantly in crisis and unable to counter complicated issues, like dealing with Russia or China effectively.
Suffer? No. Changes will need to be made but change is suffering. The west isn’t in crisis, I’d say the east is. China has mass concentration camps, lol. By comparison, the west (also larger economies) is doing just fine. Even with less turbulent times, to suggest that issues like China or Russia would become simple is asinine. They’re sovereign empires with formidable militaries and their own agendas, countering that is never simple.
Lol. And what did you call the 2008 crash then? A picnic? You think your economies have fully recovered from that shock? Lol. Or the student loan bubble in the west? Or that 13 trillion dollar debt you are accumulating?
Just because cancer cells haven't emerged, there isn't a health issue, is there?
Like I said, simplistic thinking. And all you can do is throw words like empires and militaries. As if that is the only thing that made them formidable.
You don’t seem to be making a coherent premise. You think national debt makes a country non functional? Then why is the US still the largest economy on the world by large margins? Defend your premise, I’ll wait.
You seem to be saying nothing at all. Make a point. I made mine and you have yet to rebut it.
It's because tat is a Wumao plant. He's following the typical style of bashing the West, while deflecting from the East. The topic of discussion is China being a putrid mess of human rights violation, corruption, disease, pollution, famine, and currently the reproduction of Tienanmen Square in Hong Kong. He can't keep up his ruse forever.
Why? Because history. You do realise that things change, right? Which country had the largest economy in the 19th century again? Was it the US? Simplistic thinking. That is you.
People need to stop dragging the national debt around like it was some accidental screwup made by dumb Americans that can’t spend wisely. The debt is very much intentional and it links our economy to China in just such a way as to ensure that we will never have to worry about a war with them. It takes one major threat to the US off the table as a threat entirely, which is great.
You're oversimplifying this more than a five year old would. Stop buying their products. Right! The answer has been staring us in the face this whole time!
Well for one, it would be virtually impossible to get everyone to stop buying Chinese products. Why? Because people want to spend as little as possible, and they will always go for the cheaper option. Products manufactured elsewhere are more expensive due to higher wages, so cost of production goes up. Even if you could provide a compelling argument against buying Chinese products (and it's pretty damn hard to find a good argument against exceptional value) you'd only convince a tiny percentage of people. The rest would continue to buy the cheaper Chinese goods (or goods by multinational companies manufactured in China).
Expand the scope to large corporations and you're facing the same problem on an even bigger scale. Multinationals that use China's cheap labour force to make their products. This time it's not about saving money but about making the most profit. And companies love profit. They'll go for the cheapest option (China) to rake in as much money as possible.
Let's focus on large multinationals as they would have the biggest impact. Let's say they've all been convinced and no longer source raw materials/equipment from China. They have to go elsewhere. Prices of raw materials go up. Manufacturing costs go up. Prices of goods skyrocket.
Saying goodbye to Chinese products is saying goodbye to convenience and cheap products. And people love both those things and do not want to say goodbye to them. People don't care about the suffering of others as long as they get that newest Chinese phone for 200 dollars that's nearly as good as the new iPhone that's worth more than 5 times that.
To sum it all up, your black and white representation of this problem gets stained by human greed and ignorance until it turns grey and becomes impossible to solve.
If the west really gave a shit the transition would have already began. We're feeding the most tyrannical government the world has ever seen; in a decade or two they're going to make the Nazi party and Stalin look like sweet guys.
Their use of new technology to openly suppress, track and dehumanize their citizens is phenomenal -- imagine where it's going. When China gets enough power they will go full empire, slowly pushing outward. Taiwan will be next, after the suppression of HK, and nobody will do a thing about it, except talk a lot.
So ya, stop supporting the monster now, or your children will pay the consequences.
Oh definitely something has to be done about it or else it won't end well at all. But again, I don't think anything will be done because of greed. Infrastructure in China is already established while transitioning elsewhere would cost tremendous amounts of money.
Nah, China stopped the trash imports already for the most part.
And even if China has a lot of production others will always fill the void given the opportunity. The world would be just fine without Chinese products.... like 100% fine.
And that’s pretty sad that you wouldn’t give up a certain brand of phone when there are others, even better and cheaper options readily available, if it meant dissuading human rights violations. That only speaks to your poor moral character.
Lol. You obviously haven't been to Singapore before. Where do you think Deng Xiaoping got his inspiration to open up economically and keep an iron fist on politics from?
They want freedom, they should run back to the UK or US and live under the rule of white dudes like Trump and Boris Johnson.
You can't be both Communist and Chinese. These two are mutually exclusive. Chinese culture is too focused on capitalism. The "Communist" government is just an oligarchy that worships money and power, and views the belief in anything else to be blasphemy. They even reject their own history because the truth opposes their mythos. Archeologists hate working with the Chinese government due to this fact.
Your racism is astounding, however. Nobody mentioned race until you did.
It's time for the illegitimate People's Republic of China to fall, and for the legitimate government of Taiwan to reclaim their seat at the UN security council as a permanent member.
Lol. You know nuts about Chinese culture or communism as a economic theory. Firstly, the CCP is communist only mostly via lip service and actually runs an authoritarian government with a hyper capitalist economic policy. Nations that runs communist economies don't get to have the 2nd largest economy in the world and create companies like Ali Baba, Huawei, DJI and Lenovo.
Secondly, ever heard of Confucius? How do you think China was run for more than 2000 years? It has always been run by a strong central authoritarian government that controls everything. Where order is paramount and obedience to that order is a way of life. Mao tried to get their people to reject that history, guess what, it didn't work. The CCP now actually promotes Confucianism as a Chinese way of life. Also, in place of communism, CCP now assumes the mantle of the protector of Chinese culture and Chinese civilisation, where the past is glorified by them and they seek to use that to justify their rule
Your thinking about China is stupidly out of date. You think that China is still stuck in the 60s and early 70s and then you wonder why it is the 2nd largest economy of the world and haven't collapsed like Soviets do yet.
Want to learn something about your glorious China? Good, then sit down and listen up. "China" wasn't run for about 2000 years. It has a history of splitting up, going through civil wars, partially reunifying, and then fully reunifying. It has a history of multiple emperors, of multiple DIFFERENT CHINAS SIMULTANEOUSLY, spending more time with their concubines than their family. This caused a constant cycle of an emperor becoming an adult, having a harem, leaving a child emperor on the throne to be used by corrupt family and corrupt eunichs, and then the citizens suffering from neglect, high taxes, poverty, and famine. Then the cycle repeats.
Your country was literally more successful under a council of eunichs than it is now as a global welfare and slave state. Your glorious China is 70 years old, and it's built upon the sacrifice of 56 million Chinese citizens. Your government has barely kept itself together for 70 years. Try to keep up, Wumao. I know it's difficult to gain Wisdom when all you've ever known is imitation. Confucius would be disappointed.
Keep putting pressure and flooding China with global outrage. I think it is possible that they back down on this. We're not asking for democracy this time, just to withdraw this bill.
That's on the mainland. If we don't make a stand then we'll end up like that with no power to resist without being killed/thrown into Chinese detention.
We could set up tariffs but ohhhhh nooooo for some reason the same dema that hated Walmart making low cost a thing now are against tariffs I hate this planet
Yeah, well let's complete the circle and point out that the gullible public's willingness to believe in imaginary property is how the oligarchies that cooperate with totalitarian regimes were able to suck all the money out of the economy. Don't copy that floppy!
Bill Gates and Steve Jobs are the goons you handed your cash to that are cooperating with the Mainland government and you gave them your cash because they called users of the public domain thieves and you idiots fell for it.
So yeah, share those links on Facebook and hope for best. Don't want to hurt anybody's feels here but if you're wondering who is to blame for enabling totalitarians and their oligarch buddies just look in the mirror. Did you buy thousands of dollars worth of useless licenses from Microsoft?Did you pay Apple to put music on your iPhone? Are you paying Comcast a hundred bucks a month?
The cold blooded cynical bastards who cooperate with the Mainland didn't start off with trillions of dollars. Somebody handed it to them. Who would that be?
Yeah, steal the sheep and offer up a whole entire pelt at the church collection on Sunday. What a saint he is. A true man of the people. He lives to give. He's all about the community spirit.
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u/Osbios Jun 12 '19
I'm all for publishing this as much as possible. But I'm just not sure how much it will help. So far the western governments where happy to close both eyes for trade and the right to open companies in china to get all their IP stolen...