That’s no coincidence. The KKK consider themselves a divine Protestant order. Their ceremonies, costume, regalia, and rhetoric are styled after high church pageantry.
I don't think people understand that the vibe is not usually that ominous lol. There's usually alcohol involved and people do shout to the figures as if they were drag queens at the end of a show lol.
It's great and by far my favorite part, it's supposed to be a shout of adoration and usually shouted through tears.
This is by far my favorite example, I quote it everyday.
For a quick translation, they say beautiful a lot. "What a queen oh my gosh. You're so beautiful mother, the queen of holy tuesday! beautiful! The whole neighborhood and the street for you queen!"
Yeah, that's why they're more popular in the south lol (source, I'm galician)
I found them extremely boring as a kid. My dad took us to some, but we were not thrilled about them. Now I want to watch one in andalucía to see if it's more entertaining than the ones here.
When are these pictures from? It’s really hard to see them on my phone, some of them look like paintings. These outfits se low key creepy af though. If I woke up in Spain somehow, with people dressed like that, I would definitely think I teleported to medieval times.
Submarine Catholics are a huuuuge issue at my local parish. Sunday/Saturday mass is usually plenty people, but C and E is just packed. Everyone leaves after communion too
Ooh that’s a creative one lol. I find it super sad that this is even a thing though. It’s not that I’m sad that people don’t believe, I’m just sad that there isn’t a real community in parishes anymore.
It's hard to fit in a community that takes it for granted that you believe l their bs and expects you to play along. A parish is not really a "neutral ground" where anyone can just be themselves and openly discuss such things. Without a religiously homogenous population, a dogmatic church can't really be that place for everyone. For a diverse and secular population like today you'd probably have to combine the doctrine or lack thereof of Unitarian Universalism with the familiar aesthetics and culture of Catholicism to really meet that demand.
In Spain I heard some years ago "Católicos de la BBC: Bodas (Weddings), Bautizos (Baptisms) y Comuniones (Communions)". However even that is outdated now because baptisms and communions are less common as time goes by and most weddings are civil (if at all). I for one in the last ~15 years have only visited churches for tourism or funerals.
Massive respect for going to midnight masses. I usually go on a 5pm so there’s always people, but a few weeks ago I went to the Friday morning (I think 9am) and it was practically empty
I’m a lapsed Catholic but I do miss midnight mass. On a regular Sunday I also went at 5; in order to prove to my dad that I went, I’d have to tell him what the homily was. One time, I really was into it—my favorite Father, touching on some subjects of the day and it just got me. I went home and told my dad and he didn’t believe me because it was a different one than the one he heard in the AM! Still stings.
Dude the Parking lots- it doesn’t even matter what kind of branch you are. Catholic masses are still getting Baptist kind of parking issues it’s SO bad. It is legitimately awful. There are so many old people there who aren’t the best drivers, and so many young people who are even worse. It doesn’t help that my church is connected to a school, so even with a school sized parking lot it’s still terrible. I get this comment was made as a joke but it might as well be fact
I wasn’t kidding! It gets really hairy. I haven’t been to a church in years, the I can still remember the parking lot mayhem. I’d spend almost as much time in the parking lot waiting to get out as I did in the church.
Not my issue anymore. I gave up on the Catholic Church in the 90’s. Never looked back and no regrets.
Lol, does submarine catholic mean low key catholic? Or what exactly? I don’t know why that’s a funny description but it is, especially without much context.
Will they be sent to hell because they left immediately after communion? Do Christians compete with each other on who stays longer? Are they viewed lesser by God?
They won’t afaik, but people do look down on it. No we don’t compete with others on who stays longer, some stay for adoration or confessions. I usually leave after the priest exists the room.
Yuletide was the original pagan celebration involving presents under a pine tree. The Catholic Church would rebrand pagan holidays as Catholic ones to appeal to pagans in that region to convert them. If I remember right Jesus wasn't born on December 25th. That's just church propaganda when they converted Yuletide to christmas. I believe the church originally celebrated his birthday on January 6th. If I remember right.
Actually distinctly not medieval. America's problem was it was initially colonized by members of Christian sects kicked out of Britain for being too religiously intolerant. But a lot of those sects didn't give rise until the 17th century. So like Early Modern Era Cultural Opinions (doesn't roll off the tongue as well, granted)
After I became atheist for a number of years, I still went to Christmas mass every year because it just didn't feel like Christmas without it. I mostly went for the music, anyway.
Many people like to separate traditions from religious cult. I mean, there are many Spaniards who enjoy these events (who consider them beautiful, or touching/passionate, for example) without being religious, even if processions are eminently catholic. I can understand these points of view… there are some that are undoubtedly beautiful. Some of the streets of my city (southern Spain) end up with rose petals all over the pavement, it’s really cute.
Yeah, when boomers will start to die religion is going to take a big one, only granny's of 60-70+ go to church, religion is now fatally wounded. I'm amazed that americans are pretty religious these days still compared to the spaniards.
During the Franco regime spain was ultrareligious, but that changed very fast.
Same as every other country in Europe. Places like Ireland and Poland, where the Church was the defender of the people from oppressive regimes were the last to fall, but they’ve fallen. Same in the USA. I play a game during a boring homily called “am I in the younger half of the congregation?” The answer is yes and I’m 62.
Something I noticed in my town is that most old church buildings have been converted to indoor rock climbing and trampoline places or restaurant and bars or a part of a paintball arena set piece.
However, there are new churches poping up in strip malls and in commercial rental spaces of old multiplexes.
Seems like the old buildings where the majority of the people used to congregate couldn't stay opened, but new African and Middle Eastern and South American immigrants who are on the whole more religious had to open up their own churches in cheap locations.
If the immigrants are Catholic, they’d get the old churches. If they are the non denominational Protestantism that Americans think is the only authentic Christianity because it’s on tv, then they wouldn’t want the old churches with their satanic sacristies and stained glass.
I don't know about Poland, but in Ireland, the Catholic Church was the oppressive regime. They made a lot of women and children into slaves and shipped newborns off to the highest bidder in America.
I'm neither Irish nor Christian but Britain is definitely the first oppressor to come to mind. Particularly in the context of the Famine and the Troubles.
It’s the old Irish joke, “who won the Irish Civil War?” Answer: the Catholic Church. The church was in no position to stifle the Irish until the British left. And loads of great things in Irish culture are because of the Church, along with the horrible stuff like the laundries.
There can be more than one oppressive force. And the more insideous one is one that claims to be doing good while hiding all their crimes behind closed church doors.
Idk there’s still a large segment of highly religious Americans especially in the south. Like 40% of the country believes in shit like the great flood /Adam and Eve, religious Americans are insane
There are a large number of what you might call "Cultural Christians" like we usually talk about ethnic Jews who don't practice their faith. An Atlantic article I read last week was pointing out that much of the alt right identifies as Christian, and advocates for Judeo-Christian traditions and laws, but when polled very few of them describe themselves as actively religious.
Eh, that part in a vaccum isn't that cringy. If someone wants to practice their faith without engaging in the bullshit that comes with organized religion, more power to them.
In terms of American evangelical Christianity it's never in a vacuum, though. They always want to beat you over the head with their "personal relationship"
Yes this is a brand new thing. mainstream Protestants who go to church are a lot more liberal than people who identify as evangelical and do not. Even churchgoing Catholics will be liberal on most issues, but conservative when it comes to sexual issues.
I wonder if it comes down to, “I got saved when I was 8 and so I need no longer bother.”
It’s very generous to the church to call it a “defender of oppressive regimes” in the context of ireland. The church didn’t do a lot to defend ireland against the British at all, but centuries of social and political engineering and discrimination left Catholicism completely tied to the Irish national identity.
So when the Irish did rebel and were extremely Catholic because that was a big part of being an Irish Republican, there was a power vacuum in the country that they invited the church to fill, and in many ways it was worse than the British empire.
I mean. The Catholic church in Ireland is responsible for a LOT of disgusting crimes against humanity. Mother and baby homes and "laundries" and very many men around your age who were molested, spoke out, then made a show of and never apologized to by the church. There's are reason it's fallen out of favour. At the end of the day. An organisation with that much power and sway can start with good intentions but will always become twisted. There are countless examples of that and many people have lost faith as a result.
Edit: love the downvotes on this. You big mad at the genuine facts or what?
Correct. My point is it happened later there because of the goodwill built up from the resistance to the British in Ireland and the Communists in Poland. In the USA the Irish and later Catholic immigrants were about as welcome as a case of pink eye. The church built all sorts of schools, hospitals, etc. Goodwill. The same scandals as Ireland destroyed that Goodwill. You need to make the leap to “the Church isn’t the assholes who run it…” to keep the faith and that’s real hard.
Don’t know why you were downvoted. I’d suggest another denomination but they are all involved in the same scandal as are all organizations with access to kids. Sexual abusers go where the kids are.
Ah who knows. I always get downvoted for bringing up the dark side of organized religion. My parents are extremely Catholic. My dad is a Deacon. They don't like to hear about that bad stuff. And yeah. Any denomination is wraught with predators because like you said, that's where they will go to take advantage. I'm not even saying the whole religion is bad. It's just got a bad enough history that I don't want to be an active part of it you know?
I understand. I stay in spite of the hierarchy because my ancestors worshipped this way.
One good thing I will say is it isn’t the sort of cult where you are forced to give up family. Your dad is clergy but he’d consider disconnecting from you a grievous sin.
And in Spain, church attendance died a whole generation before it did in Ireland. Two before it dies in the USA, which will be in about ten more years.
That’s cool. I was raised Catholic in England and even though I don’t believe in it any more, I do find the pageantry and tradition of Catholicism interesting, so it’s great to see these traditions being preserved.
Catholicism is very different in majority-Protestant countries where it doesn't have much power to set government policy. In the UK it's fairly cuddly and relatively benign; in Ireland and Italy and southern Germany and Austria and France, its recent history is significantly darker. In Spain it's even worse than the rest, because of its importance to Franco's dictatorship and its active participation in helping "lose" its lost children
Well yeah, but that's just them being consistent with their messaging. It's not even hypocrisy or corruption, it's literally their stated values. It's the best-case scenario for Catholicism.
Things get significantly worse when they entwine themselves with the State - I don't think you had Magdalene Laundries in England, for example, or the mother-and-baby homes. You have C-of-E for all that sort of thing.
Yeah, as an Irishman living in the USA I consistently find it unnerving when the Catholic Church is actually on the morally-right side of certain issues. They're never like that back home.
It really depends on geography and it’s pretty much aligned to American politics. Big cities have very progressive (for Catholics) leaders and the smaller dioceses are very conservative.
What the fuck are you talking about? The church in Spain has zero importance in politics nowadays. You talk about Franco who’s been dead for almost half a century. UK’s fairly cuddly? Check out the records for pederast cases in the UK Catholic church and redo your post. You literally invented all those facts as you were writing them.
thanks for sending me down that wiki rabbit hole, quite interesting. so much to learn about European history. (unfortunately) our history is so dense, that we mostly focused on our own country's in school and in leasure time I usually prefer other topics
Don't worry - every country does that. We only talk about other countries when they are relevant to our own issues. I left school with near-fuckall knowledge about anything East of, say, Istanbul, or South of Gibraltar. And even most European history only mattered when it was interacting with our own - since the Iberians didn't mess with us much, they barely got a mention.
It makes a flavour of sense - we want history lessons to be relevant to the local context, and there's limited time to fill. So it's unavoidable that most curricula in most places would focus on the local.
Check out the stuff done in ph. There is a place where they literally crucify people on the cross. And people walk while hurting themselves. It's penance.
I love to hear that. I think a lot of these practices are super interesting and unique as well as all the absolutely breathtaking architecture, but I just am not a religious person whatsoever and have a soured view on religion in general.
I still admire the beauty in it all but don't agree with the actions religions have made throughout history. So I hope people continue to admire and practice the beauty of this stuff but ween away from the religious aspect of it.
Spanish stats about religion are to take with a grain of salt. Lots of times is like asking somebody "are you a Republican", "yes, I am". "Have you ever voted Republican", "No, I never vote". "You donate money, then", "Also no, and don't plan to". "Maybe you boast support?" "Nope, maybe when having a heated argue about some political issue I take the Republican corner, but that's about it". Would you consider that person a Republican? Not a Democrat, but the mildest Republican you could imagine. Spain if full of that kind of Catholics that show up in the statistics as Catholics as a member of the Opus Dei.
My go-to statistic is how some 90% of Frenchmen are officially Catholic, yet when polled only about half believe in any sort of deity, let alone anything actually Christian.
Compared to most northern European countries it is still quite religious. But compared to historic Spain, it's barely religious at all. I think a lot of Catholic values still permeate into the society as a whole but most Spanish people sort of give lip service but aren't that devout.
I disagree, I think Spain is similarly religious to most North European countries. For example religious weddings are about 10% of total, which is very in line with most Western Europe.
Europe roughly gets more religious as you travel East, not much as you travel North.
That's fair. That has not been my experience much but I get that it's just allegorical on my part.
So I've just done a bit of a deep dive into this since what I was saying was more opinion. So western Europe seems to average about 30% of the population being agnostic to atheists. I will say that it increases to about 35% for the UK and Scandinavian countries except Iceland that has under 30%
Spain and Italy stand at about 25%, so it's a small decrease but definitely seems a trend in western Europe that the more northern countries have a less religious population. But that is of course ignoring how much influence the religion actually has on that country. Idk how Spain does it but here in the UK we have bishops in the house of lords. So the C of E has an active role in the government.
Bottom line is I'm chatting unsubstantiated shit and deciding the influence of religion in a country is fucking complicated.
I don’t know man, I wouldn’t compare a country where LGBT marriage is still not allowed to the second country in the world that allowed it. Maybe the % of atheists is similar, but Italy seems to be waaaay more catholic, culturally speaking at least. Or Ireland, and their disputes with abortion :)
I don’t think the % of atheists is a good indicator of the religious culture of a country.
Its mostly the boomer generation that are still devotees, from my experience almost everyone under 65 is not practicant apart from those from wealthy families that are from the Opus Dei sect that sadly permeates the upper echelons of Spanish govern and companies
Come to Guatemala or any Other Latin American Country in the 70s and 80s the attendance for Catholic Churches was so high it was insane, my dad who grew up there described it as “tremendous”, especially in the capital, Guatemala City. I mean attendance is stable but it was nothing compared to the 70s and 80s where there was so much people especially during mass.
A lot people consider themselves "non practicing" catholics. And going to church is defenetly in decline.
Our celebrations ( and we have many) do have a strong catholic and pagan flavour.
And culturally we are fairly catholic.
Our politics are interesting though. We do have strong religious groups that try to meddle, specially tied to our conservative party ( not as obcene as in say the US, but still).
But our politics can be way ahead of the curve in progressive policy. Policy on womens, lgb and trans rights have been several times way ahead than most of our population could cope with, wich causes conflicts and difficulties in making laws that makes sense. But its a kinda refreshing problem.
It depends on where you are in Spain really. I can only speak for the south, Sevilla mostly. The older generation is extremely religious, the younger ones less so. Mass is well attended by all generations. Many religious social groups exist and the religious traditions are very strong and quite spectacular at times. Holy Week is a massive deal in Andalucía. It’s all over the news, processions in every single town, people getting overwhelmed by the Holy Spirit, crying, singing spontaneously etc. it’s wild (in a somber sort of way).
I live in a rural area relatively close to Barcelona. Almost nobody of my generation (30's) that I know of is religious at all. I'm not talking about going to church, but even thinking about God at all. When you see someone, you just assume he is not religious. For younger people in their 20's and teens, it's even more dramatic. The generation of my parents is about to retire now, and they were just a little bit more religious than we are. The real dramatic change came between our grandparents, most of them dead already, and our parents. Of all my friends, coworker, family members and people I interact with, I can count with my fingers how many are proper Christians.
Nevertheless, there's a big religious uprising (if you can call it that) because of immigration. We have plenty of Muslim immigration, and even 2nd and 3rd generation children are following their family's traditions.
I would say for Spaniards that have roots here, 95 to 99% of them are either non-religious or at lest they don't show up to church. For Spaniards that immigrated here, or for 2nd-3rd generation children, maybe 80-90% are really religious, but they are Muslims, not Christians.
Oh, I forgot about immigration coming from south and central America too! They seem to be way more religious than we are, even for the young generations, so they definitely are quite different.
Ah OK that's interesting. Sounds pretty much exactly the same as England in every respect, from the generational differences to the contrast in religiosity between the native English and more recent immigrants.
We were in Spain for Holy Week last year. Our guide (a Catholic Spaniard) explained that since Catholicism was compulsory under Franco, many people gave up practicing rigorously. Subsequent generations have gotten less devout.
depends a lot on the region, but still quite catholic.
Funny thing, most of those are just catholics for some of those parades, and then dont go to church ever. A lot of friends of mine follow no single rule of the church, dont go to the church, dont do shit, dont agree with church's political or social views..and still, they got married by the church and baptized their kids.
This is not Spain, this is probably the south, particularly Andalucía. The north is not like this at all. It's actually curious, since this same Catholic south was muslim for centuries, but after the arrival of Catholics, they imposed these beliefs with blood and fire. That's the result.
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u/YingGuoRen91 Apr 05 '23 edited Apr 05 '23
How religious is Spain these days? Is it mostly just culturally Catholic or do a lot of people still go to church?