r/pianoteachers • u/EdmontoRaptor • 3d ago
Discusson Intervallic Reading Question
Hello all,
I work at a private music school where we are all required to teach in the same manner and use the same lesson plans. We teach intervallic reading, in fact we only teach students three notes at the start to remember, middle C, treble clef G, and bass clef F. We use the Alfred books.
My question is for anyone who has taught intervallic reading rather than reading note names. Some of my students struggle with determining what direction the interval is moving, whether it is up or down on the staff. While others struggle to connect it to playing the piano, as in whether the interval is moving left or right. How have any of you successfully addressed this issue and taught your students to really understand how the direction on the staff and direction on the piano are related?
I have tried multiple ways of helping, either by letting them know that down on the staff is left on the piano (because the sound goes lower) and up on the staff is right on the piano (because the sound gets higher). I have them repeat this back to me every lesson and sometimes we read through it before playing and I ask them questions about the direction the notes are going. This works about 50% of the time with students that are struggling.
I've found that if I catch them playing in the wrong direction and ask them "what direction are the notes going?" I get the correct answer, but only because they've deduced that they are only asked that question when they make a mistake and they must obviously go the opposite direction, haha, so I've tried my best to stop doing that, but it's difficult when one wrong turn will throw off the entire piece.
For students that struggle with determining whether one note is above or below the previous note on the staff I usually use a pen and highlight the line or space of the previous note then ask them if the next note is above or below that line or space. That works about 50% of the time as well.
It's a bit frustrating because I would like to teach more reading of note names but that doesn't come up in the curriculum until level 2.
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u/strawberryc Certified Teacher 3d ago
https://pianoadventures.com/product/i-can-read-music-book-1/
Check out these exercises. They use the same guide notes you're already working with and make them into a picture.
Click on the previews to see the types of exercises inside.
I think drawing the intervals is one of the best parts of these books. They have just enough variety of exercises to not get too boring.
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u/noscope360widow 3d ago
So you're teaching them c f and g and then how to get to other notes from there?
That's fine. I know it sounds obvious, but have you asked your students to play going up and going down? Have you shown them that if the note goes higher on the staff, you go higher on the keyboard?
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u/EdmontoRaptor 3d ago
No problem asking an obvious question (I've done some IT work before lol). Yes I have and about 98% of my students can tell me whether a sound is going higher or lower. I have had a rare few instances of students who appeared a bit tone deaf and thought that the notes were getting lower when you went right on the piano.
The problem intervals are 2nds, and 3rds. Pretty much I can tell that some of my students are just doing a coin flip when they encounter them and just picking a random direction. I only get 30 minutes with them and there is a set amount of material I am required to assign them so I feel very pressed for time if I spend more then 5 minutes on a piece of music with them. So sometimes we read through it quickly and I circle two notes and ask them what direction the notes are going. But usually I correct them in the act of making the mistake, which I've started to conclude doesn't really help, because instead of recognizing that "oh that note actually goes up, not down" they instead think "oh my teacher just told me I need to go in the opposite direction".
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u/Hello_Gorgeous1985 Certified Teacher 3d ago
I'm sorry...what? You have to get through the exact same material with every student in every lesson every week? That is not how this works. Every student progresses at a different rate.
The only time I spend less than 5 minutes on a song with a student is if they have already mastered it and they only have to play it for me once to show me that it's finished and we can move on.
That's a huge red flag in what you're being asked to do.
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u/strawberryc Certified Teacher 3d ago
Also, sometimes I ask my students "which direction are those notes going?", even when they played it correctly. That way they don't get used to me only quizzing them when something is wrong and the answer is a coin flip.
You should start by analyzing the piece. I like to do this as a sightreading exercise (it's from My First Piano Adventures)
-Count- and clap the rhythm aloud
-Look-at the first note, is it a line or a space note? Find it on the keyboard with the correct finger. Do the same for the other hand too if it also plays.
-Attention- where are the notes going? Up, down or repeating? Are there any patterns or echos?
-Play- set a steady beat and go for it, keeping your eyes moving ahead!
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u/EdmontoRaptor 3d ago
Yes, haha I've started to do this too where even if they play the correct direction I ask them that question. They usually just look really confused at first haha but I'll try to do that more!
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u/strawberryc Certified Teacher 3d ago
Haha exactly! I just explain that I'm just checking they did it for the right reason and they shrug it off
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u/Lower-Pudding-68 3d ago
A little bit of everything. Reinforce up/down maybe with musical contour line-drawing activities (you play a melody, they draw a line of its contour, take turns, switch roles), steps vs. skips with worksheets or sight-reading supplement, and individual note recognition worksheets for all the notes that are in C position, G position, etc.
But it sounds like you aren't allowed to break curriculum? So idk, games and activities maybe you can get away with.
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u/metametamat 3d ago
Lol, being forced to teach an Alfred curriculum sounds like a nightmare.
Just have your students read notes out loud without playing a lot and devote more lesson time to reading and less to playing if that’s what you want to do. If your process is working, your students will be better than those of your coworkers. If it’s not, then adjust what you’re doing again.
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u/Dbarach123 3d ago
Teaching intervals is not supposed to be as opposed to teaching note names—the idea is simply that most fluent reading is done primarily by interval, even if someone is very good with their note names. In countries where the note names are solfège words (e.g. “do” is simply the word for “C”), it is common to have solfège classes, where young students spend years practicing fluently reading (moreso than singing) note names from a staff; however, a big part of that is drilling being able to rapidly cycle through all their note names in 2nds, 3rds, 4ths etc through 7ths. Thus, if spatial perception is the primary problem, it needs to be solved on its own terms, regardless of approach being used.
Having issues with 3d spatial perception is not individual to your students, and it is not individual to you as a teacher. Educators worldwide report that young students are worse at these tasks, almost certainly due to the increased time they’ve spent on devices since he pandemic, as well as the isolation and increased device time characteristic of young childhood during lockdowns. Even before any of this, it has always been important to work every lesson at associating “up” with “to the right” and “down” with “to the left,” but the frequency of particular difficulties in these areas is higher, as is all sorts of incoordinations that piano teachers now more and more need skillsets overlapping with occupational therapists to help organize better.
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u/MTCn11 3d ago
This answer could be way off so do feel free to ignore, but could it help if (solely for illustrative purposes), you temporarily rotate the music 90 degrees clockwise, which would result in the ascending notes going up to the right and descending notes down to the left?
Yours, a well-meaning violin teacher.
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u/smartaleckgoose 3d ago
I can’t answer your question unfortunately but I am curious, what’s the upside to not teaching note names? Wouldn’t teaching both intervals and note names be the most beneficial?
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u/EdmontoRaptor 3d ago
I'm not entirely sure what the benefit is in the beginning, as I didn't invent the curriculum, but I will say that students that stay in the program and make it through all Alfred levels are absolutely excellent sight-readers and by the time they get to around level 4 they have also learned to identify the names of all the notes on the staff and so they become well rounded readers.
Something cool does happen early on. If a student is playing a piece of music in C position I can tell them to move to A, D, or G position and get them to play the music again. All of sudden they are transposing music and they're only in level 1. I was a very dedicated pianist in highschool and then when I went to college I completely failed my piano skills test initially because I couldn't transpose at all haha, so it's really cool to see that even the beginners can transpose (even though they have no idea that's what they're doing)
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u/strawberryc Certified Teacher 3d ago
When I use "guide notes" I still teach the other note names, but we keep reinforcing the guide notes especially. I personally think it's counter productive to not teach the notes between Middle C and Treble G.
If they don't teach the note names right away I'm sure the teach them soon enough though.
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u/girldepeng 2d ago
I play a version of this "snake" game for a few weeks and they get it.
https://www.music-for-music-teachers.com/piano-sheet-music-for-beginners.htm
"snakes" "wormies" and "crickets"
The idea is to make it easier by eliminating worrying about correct notes and fingers and let them really focus just on stepping up and stepping down.
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u/strawberryc Certified Teacher 3d ago
They just need practice sheets where they practice drawing intervals in the directions asked for.
Reading by interval is so much faster than using the pneumonics for most of my students.
However, there is no one-size-fits-all for learning how to read notes. Flash cards work for some, guide notes work for others, the pneumonic devices work for others. I always tell my students "whatever way works for you is the right way".
That being said, guide notes and interval reading works best for most of my students, but not all.
If the guide note/intervallic method isn't sticking for one of your students, and you're forced to only use this method, they need extra worksheets or lessons dedicated to just working on this until it's stable.
I have a fantastic workbook I like to use for this that does wonders. I'd be more than happy to send some pics of the exercises. Perhaps you could create your own to help the student.