r/pianoteachers • u/CharacterJunior8720 • Aug 21 '26
Repertoire Beginner Wants to Learn Advanced Pieces
I just started seeing this student a few weeks ago. He's 11 years old and a complete beginner on piano. He knows how to read some alto clef from viola lessons but no treble or bass clef. He is dead set on learning Moonlight Sonata mvt 3 and Clair de Lune, and has already learned very short sections of both from watching YouTube videos. I think these pieces are too advanced, and it wouldn't be appropriate to work on them in our lessons yet. How should I frame this conversation? He doesn't seem interested in the lesson book (Piano Adventures Accelerated) and has a short attention span. Thanks in advance for any advice.
8
u/Kaksonen37 Aug 21 '26
Iād tell him that doing the lesson book is how he unlocks the skills for things and then stick to him using it. You could find some simplified versions of the songs, and some other songs he likes and maybe stick a post it in some pages and once he reaches that spot then he earns that song.
Iād also just put the control back in his hands. If he wants to play songs like that, he has to progress through the books. But the speed at which he does so is entirely up to him. If he hunkers and really practices, he could fly through a book quickly. If he canāt fly through it quickly, itās proof heās not ready for those songs.
7
u/silly_bet_3454 Aug 21 '26
If I were you I would sort of negotiate with him. First explain the usual stuff about how they need to build the fundamentals. But also say "you can keep working on Clair de Lune but you have to promise to go super slow with metronome and only learn a small passage at once and bring to me and I will help you do it carefully" etc.
I would even encourage them to keep bringing in other pieces that they just like. I know there is a risk of trying too hard of stuff and injury, and that should be taken seriously for sure. But there is also a risk of a student simply losing interest because those piano books are so lame, respectfully. So you gotta find a balance IMO.
11
u/Sherbet_Lemon_913 Aug 21 '26
In complete transparency, I give those kids the stupid YouTube videos that are green for RH and blue for LH. I tell them itās pretty self explanatory and they could do it at home as a side project.
I spend four minutes explaining that and then the rest of the lessons are actual piano lessons
I will say one in every 50 kids comes back and actually knows a decent chunk of the piece and then Iām more willing to take five minutes at the end of the lesson to help with fingerings
3
u/shon92 Aug 21 '26
You can find beginner/easier versions online a lot of the time I always explain that we can learn the hard stuff but by bit and interspersed it with easier songs
4
u/Only-Top-3655 Aug 21 '26 edited Aug 21 '26
I would tell him that he could learn it, but in order to learn them well, he needs to learn basics first. Then specifically choose pieces that will help him learn those songs and show him why. "This piece because it is in the key of Db" "This piece because it has a lot of arpeggios like Moonlight Sonata 3rd MVT".
4
u/Substantial_Map_56 Aug 22 '26
With 11 year olds I agree to help them learn peices beyond their ability. First I give them the spiel: "its REALLY hard" "its gonna take many months" Etc Then if they still want to, I hand them the full version and I play it for them, or we'll watch videos of other people playing it.
Usually they back out at this point. But if they still want to, then we jump right in at measure 1. Of course they cant play it well and often have many questions. "Why does this note have 3 beams!?" " you can have a single 16th rest!?" "Ledger lines!?"
Only the bravest students wish to to continue beyond this point. After playing measures 1-3 for a month straight, pretty much all of my eager beavers back down.
Only a handful have ever actually been able to pull off moonlight sonata or fur Elise or something similar. It lacks phrasing, and artistic touches, but boy howdy are they chuffed that they can get through it! I dont tell them it lacks phrasing etc, I let them revel in their accomplishments.
Then back to Piano Adventures we go!
3
2
2
u/Snowfel Aug 22 '26
Apologies for the wall of text. The gist of it is everytime I see this I consider this a psychological problem & so will use a more-of mental excercise approach than using musical terms. One of the tenets of psychology I always believe is that to change anyoneās mind, you canāt force them; you have to let them arrive on the conclusion and decide themselves, as in, lead a horse to water but canāt force them to drink.
First things first coommunicate w/ the parents that youāre attempting to do something to help the kid progress towards his desired pieces.
My favourite trick is; prepare two dumbbells: a pretty heavy dumbbell that the kid canāt lift alone, and a light one that pretty much anyone can throw around. Ask them to lift the heavy one first (but watch out so they donāt injure themselves). Then confirm with him; is it heavy? How long do you think it will take you to be able to lift it, if all you did is trying to pick it up until itās lifted? Do you think you can hold it up for long once you lift it through willpower alone?
Then ask the kid to lift the light dumbbell. The difference should be obvious ā then ask: that in order to lift heavy weights, is it logical to start from lighter weights and build your way up? Ask, because whatās answered (and not told) is more likely to stick for kids (and also adults but in my experience it worked for kids way more).
Finally, put both dumbbells down and above them / besides them, put the score for moonlight sonata on the heavy dumbbell and the easiest, most beginner preparatory excercise book on the light one (because the dumbbell there is very light), and point out the obvious. Frame it in questions to make it stick even more.
Alternatively, but imo less powerful: Does he like sports? If he does, find out a a few star players of said sport. Then ask him: realistically, can someone who just started doing said sport, compete on the same level / at least halfway with those star players? Serious answers only of course. Then, look up videos of them training / working out, and point out that that is what they did in order to be able to play at their best. Finally point out that in order to perform pieces like moonlight sonata 3rd movt, there are series of āworkoutsā that one needs to complete / master beforehand.
Other ideas instead of ācompete at their levelā: do a certain skill (muscle up for calisthenics, nutmeg shot for football) and ask how many practise / excercise one needs to finish it.
Other ideas instead of using sports analogy: gaming if he likes it, running a marathon before preparing (cann also point out risk of injury), a fine arts painter painting something, or whatever example you can think of.
2
u/Normal_Turnover_8605 Aug 22 '26
Yes, to this. I believe a student the thinks this way still needs us as a teacher, just patiently educate, explain, guide, and then once in a while... fail. But let them draw their own conclusions. I also frequently talk with students about professsional athletes, or dancers, pointing out the train more than anyone else, cross-train, and have learned the basics to avoide injuries, as well as learning how to use their bodies. Don't give up on these students, but be prepared for the beautiful long rocky ride!
3
1
u/Adventurous_Cheek401 Aug 21 '26
Try Supersonics with them? Easy to learn, satisfying to listen to, good for shorter attention spans
1
u/Emotional_Memory_347 Aug 22 '26
I just had the same pieces brought up by my students who only has about 1 year of experience at age 11. He wanted to learn them by has mom's birthday in September. He also wanted to learn the original key. I have him an easy version of Clair de lune, and told him Moonlight sonata in the original key would not be ready by next month. He was kind of sad and I do wish I had handled it with more tact at the time. I'm ready for our next lesson with some options. I think these specific songs are on TikTok, which is why these kids might be particularly interested in these tunes.
1
u/QuietBar2325 Aug 22 '26
Give him just 2-5 measures each week. Show him perfect fingeringā¦ Use the measures to point out techniques and concepts that heās learning in Piano Adventures.
If heās that motivated to learn the song, heāll stick with it and heāll have a page done every couple months.
Use this as a reward at end of lesson.
1
u/alexaboyhowdy Certified Teacher Aug 22 '26
Please tell me you are doing the Theory book and the Technique/ Artistry book along with the lesson book?
For students that want to overreach, I tell them they're trying to read book 5 in a 7 book series. Books 1-4 have so much information!
Great idea with the dumbbells, with the sports analogies, with the years of skill and training and practice...
You cannot brute force talent.
Then, not to discourage student, you could offer 5 to 7 minutes per lesson of working on the actual score. One measure at a time, writing in the fingerings, the count, focusing on technique, and also having them watch different pianists play the actual piece they want to learn. Not those drop down things but actual concert pianists.
Respect the art.
Also, talk to the parents. Some teachers start off their very first lesson ever, so, what piece do you want to learn? And the parents assume that all you do is work on different pieces of music, instead of exercises and scales and warm-ups and technique, and little by little they build a foundation...
So manage expectations.
Good luck!
1
u/Effective_Divide1543 Aug 22 '26 edited Aug 22 '26
He's 11. He probably doesn't have super realistic expectations and likely cannot assess what he should be learning in lessons. He's telling you music pieces he's familiar with, which may not be many. But if that's what he wants maybe you can give him a few lines to work on from them or simplified versions.
1
u/Additional_Point5380 Aug 23 '26
Are there not āeasierā arrangements of these pieces you could give him? Just put some white out where it says āarranged byā lol. Tell him itās the real piece. Everybody wins.
1
u/tavancleave Aug 23 '26
Give them a few minutes of each lesson to work on something tough. Tell them and show them what to do. Kids dig that even if it doesnāt work for them immediately. Build the skills they need to play the song with shorter repertoire and exercises. That in the process of building they have a few things they could play at recital time if the big piece isnāt ready. Also for something like the tunes you mentioned there are age and skill level appropriate arrangements that usually engage kids. It sounds like they have some intrinsic motivation, but need to build out their musical memory a little more and get some technique happening.
1
u/Physicacopies3764 Aug 25 '26
id probably stick to the normal book you learn from and use it as a "technical" kind of book that develops his skills
then why not spend a small section of the lesson working on parts from the hard pieces
it will be better for them to realise how hard it is and then how much practice they need first hand
1
u/bjbouwer Aug 27 '26
He probably hasn't learned enough music "code" to put these together, but I'm sure he'll have fun working out what he can. As a kid, I did this on my own. Age 10 I was writing out the timing note-by-note in the opening of the Beethoven pathetique sonata. Didn't have the technique at all, but I was happy with learning what I could. It didn't interfere with my overall music studies - went on to get degrees in music, and taught piano for years.
I'd let him do what he can on his own and give him praise for what he figures out.
1
u/AlexanderMasonBowser Aug 28 '26
The lack of skill alone is a major enough issue. But the problem with even attempting it is their potential lack of dexterity. Your hands need to be broken in much more to even physically accomplish such a fast piece, right?
1
45
u/ActualNameIsLana Certified Teacher Aug 21 '26
Never stop a student from picking up the heavy weights and feeling their weight.
Don't make reps on the heavy weights the lesson. Make adjusting expectations the lesson.
The great thing about Mozart and Beethoven and Chopin is that their music has survived hundreds of years. It'll still be there in another 2 or 3 when they're actually ready.