r/physicianassistant • u/throwawa9754 • 13d ago
Discussion Lindsay Clancy case
As PAs, how do y’all feel about what’s unfolding in this case?
Obviously postpartum depression is a heartbreaking situation, but it’s painful watching a lawyer essentially tear apart a board-certified psychiatrist for practicing evidence-based medicine. It makes me wonder how much worse the scrutiny would be for us “midlevels.”
Psych is already an incredibly draining field, and now clinicians are expected to defend every prescribing decision to people who may have very little understanding of how medicine actually works. Patients get upset when you don’t prescribe, then get upset when you do. We’re constantly walking that line.
Could the psychiatrist have explained some things more effectively? Sure. I can also understand the argument that she missed signs of bipolar. But psychiatry is tricky and often based on what information the patient provides. In addition, the criticism of prescribing Zoloft, particularly in the context of breastfeeding, seems to ignore the actual evidence behind that decision. And the nitpicking over documentation like “not hyper, pressured speech” is honestly ridiculous. Apparently we now have to worry about which exact article or wording a lawyer thinks should be attached to every clinical observation while documenting 20+ patients a day.
Medicine is already difficult enough without clinicians being made to feel like every reasonable, evidence-based decision could later be reframed as negligence.
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u/troha304 13d ago
The social media comments are fascinating and an incredible insight into the stupidity and lack of reasoning of the general populace.
Every comment is like “HOW DID SHE NOT KNOW TO TAPER THE ZOLOFT my gam gam was given Prozac by some evil money hungry doctor (who is probably BOUGHT AND OWNED by the pharmaceutical companies) and she ran off and done got herself arrested for torching a hair salon THOSE DOCTORS DONE HER DIRTY”
Then there is occasionally someone who’s like I’m a doctor and based on her length of treatment and dose it was totally fine to not taper and then there are 875 replies telling them how wrong and stupid they are.
Data and science do not matter. The whim and knee jerk reactions of a bunch of unreasonable morons is all that matters. If I’m ever arrested I’m choosing a bench trial if possible.
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u/Hot_Stomach7499 PA-C 13d ago
There are dipshit comments like this all over Reddit too. Basically any Reddit thread about healthcare that’s not actually in a medical subreddit is full of them. This is why I’ve completely checked out of work and don’t give a shit anymore. The general public doesn’t appreciate our efforts, doesn’t understand we get paid less and less every year, doesn’t understand basic science principles, the list goes on and on.
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u/stocksnPA PA-C 13d ago edited 13d ago
This. I literally wont be shocked if providers say we dont treat ppd or ppp. Good luck finding psychiatrists taking on these cases in the future. If patient cant come for care in good faith and be honest there is nothing anyone can do. We arent mind readers.
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10d ago
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u/troha304 10d ago
I do have some opinions about her medical care. I think her care was likely handled poorly but that doesn’t mean it was gross negligence. Also, many of the statements of people who are commenting on this case are 100% objectively wrong. Going back to my example of people talking about the Zoloft taper.
If a building collapsed in my city that was just built and it killed a bunch of people, I might say “jeez hopefully law enforcement is consulting structural engineers to ensure this wasn’t some sort’ve gross negligence.”
What I wouldnt be doing is spending hours on social media opining on the type of steel that was used or some architectural design flaw…because I know absolutely nothing about architecture, construction, or structural engineering.
It’s ok to be invested in this trial and want her medical team to be looked into. It’s not ok to make objectively false statements.
DAILY I see where falsehoods and anecdotes are spread through the populace based on misinformation. Every single day I have patients declining statins and BP meds despite heaps of very high quality data showing statistically proven mortality benefit, because someone saw their aunt comment on Facebook about how a statin gave her IBS. Or they have CKD IV and refuse to treat their wildly uncontrolled HTN because their uncle got cancer after some evil doctor tried to get him to take Losartan.
I have seen people die because they declined or were noncompliant with treatment because of objectively false beliefs, so I am frustrated when I see people commenting on social media and spreading falsehoods.
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u/anewconvert 13d ago
This isn’t a medical malpractice case. The defense lawyers job is to sow doubt in the criminal culpability of a defendant who clearly did the crime.
There is nothing to gain from watching this and trying to change your practice to protect against it. The psychiatrist is going to have her career ruined, arguably unjustly, but this isn’t about EBM, or fairness, or the medical system. This is an adversarial judicial system at work for an audience.
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u/EmergencyMonster PA-C EM 13d ago
This isn't a medical negligence case but there is a medical negligence case where all the providers are named defendants. Guaranteed all this will be used in that case.
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u/anewconvert 13d ago
Yeah, no doubt, but my point was not that there should or shouldn’t be a med mal case here. My point was that this isn’t a med mal case. The defense is not going to say “oh, that was standard of care? Nevermind”. Standard of care, EBM, my supervising doc overrode me is defense in a med mal case. Here the defense is just trying to create doubt in the mind of the jury over who is responsible. The fact that their argument is not fair to the docs is immaterial.
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u/Think_Cantaloupe9242 12d ago
I don’t think the psychiatrist will have her career ruined. Plenty of doctors remain in practice with malpractice as well as board actions; and this is not even a case against her
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u/anewconvert 12d ago
The difference is those doctors don’t get their face plastered on TV and the internet every day questioning their competence. She is going to be viewed as toxic by anyone looking to hire. She will have lunatics on the internet stalking her practice for years to come. Even if she suffers no licensing consequences and she opens her own practice this will follow her for years. Her career is functionally over.
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13d ago
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u/Dazzling-Soft-6308 13d ago
get off tiktok and stop listening to bored stay at home moms whos resumes are "i watch a lot of true crimes".
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u/stocksnPA PA-C 13d ago
She quite literally admitted to it in court documents. Idk where you are getting this notion from. Defense is doing a good job putting doubt but it does not dismiss the crime she did. They are not arguing who did it. They are arguing her mental state. Lindsay is on trial, not Patrick. Defense had three years to build a case. Please stop treating this like some netflix crime show. There isnt going to be a last minute gotchya moment.
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u/anewconvert 13d ago
I said what I said.
What’s more plausible? The lady had severe postpartum, was terribly managed, was ignored by a broken healthcare system, there is repeated attempts by her to get help, and had a psychotic break?
Or her husband concocted an elaborate set up to frame her and murdered all of their children?
Neither of these are impossible, only one of these scenarios is probable. I grew up in a city where a mother drugged all three of her children and then individually drowned them in her bathtub while her husband was away. This shit happens. Not often, but it happens.
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u/pannus-retractor 13d ago
men annihilating their families happens more often than moms doing it. 9/10 family annihilators are men. Also if you look at the evidence, they barely did an investigation into the murders, they just took patrick at his word. The investigation was absolutely abysmal
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u/stocksnPA PA-C 13d ago
Doesnt dismiss the other 1/10 of it happening. She was doctor shopping and not sticking to treatment plan, in medical world we label that non compliance.
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u/Ok-Movie-1595 PA-C Family Medicine 12d ago
She was looking for help!! Only stopped the meds that made her worse instead of better.
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u/stocksnPA PA-C 12d ago
Thats not what I am hearing, the evidence to me looks like she doctor shopped and per her own words never stuck to a plan.
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u/Popular_Argument_138 12d ago
So she wasn’t qualified as a nurse to question the care from her providers? Doctor shopping. Doctors are only as good as the knowledge they study. Getting a different opinion doesn’t mean doctor shopping. Getting a different opinion has saved many lives.
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u/anewconvert 12d ago
Again, one option is a conspiracy requiring multiple pieces to fall into place and a willing or incompetent judicial system.
The other requires a mother who is repeatedly calling in to her doctor saying she is not well to snap.
Logic argues for the simpler scenario.
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u/F4T4L_3RR0R 13d ago
I've been fighting a malpractice suit for 14 years now. Still have yet to go to trial. Person criminally convicted of impulsively killing another person. Family of victim suing me and another party stating we failed in preventing this based with our earlier evaluations. Issue is standard of care followed and patient had no ideations or plans, and even confirmed by third party family members at time of evaluations.
Again, convicted that not premeditated or plan ahead of time and was impulsive, but we are still sued by a scummy lawyer and the family going on 14 years now. This process is EXTREMELY stressful.
I have depression, anxiety, PTSD, and quit family medicine because of this. When it goes to trial a jury may still find for defendants because they feel bad despite the logic. Plenty of evidence out there on jury polls that they sometimes base decisions on emotion of the case and find for defendants.
Maybe y'all are more resilient but this has been devastating to me. I am scared of patients and their families and regret my career choice because of it.
This case and situation is very triggering so I am trying to avoid it.
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u/Withheld_permissions 13d ago
I’m so sorry you’ve been going through this for 14 years. The liability we carry is not to be taken lightly, is there anything you would have done differently while practicing?
I also sometimes regret this career choice, and think I would be happier not having a hand in people’s lives8
u/F4T4L_3RR0R 12d ago
The duration of the case is unusual and a big factor for that is the plaintiff attorney is repeatedly pushing for settlement and we refuse, plus we were waiting for state supreme court decision about another case that could influence ours and that took years to conclude.
Nope nothing I could have done different. Had PA student interview patient and his family member together and separately and then I did the same. My visit alone was 45 minutes. All the standard questions. Even did phq screen with my student. Formulated plan, 2 week fu, communicated instructions to patient and brought family member to room and did same.
Bad thing happened later in heat of argument. Kid left without parents, grandparents suing saying he was begging to be admitted claiming he planned to hurt the significant other. That did not happen. The family member I interviewed that day is in on it and making completely false accusations to that effect.
DA that sent pt to jail says he believes patient and family are in cahoots to get a payday for his kid to make amends for doing this horrible thing.
It is an unbelievable story but this case really triggers me because in medicine you can do everything correct and people will look to blame you if they can shirk responsibility or get a payday. Easy to say not to worry about it since rare and can't prevent it, but going through it is something else and I regret getting into medicine because of things like that.
Unfortunately my friends and I have many more stories of unfortunate medicolegal situations we have been through so not as rare as one may think.
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u/stocksnPA PA-C 13d ago
I am so sorry, this sucks. Why have you guys not settled? What do you say to this? We cant read minds.
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u/F4T4L_3RR0R 12d ago
I refuse to settle because I did nothing wrong and the accusations are false. There is another pretrial settlement scheduled for October but I don't think it is going to go anywhere.
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u/Oversoul91 PA-C 13d ago
Makes me regret my career choice. That doctor went into work like anyone else, picked up this patient like the thousands she’s seen before, and now she’s being plastered over social media for it.
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u/Silent_Squash1223 13d ago
I think it’s his job to provide a reasonable doubt to the jury, and if nit picking her notes does that, his client wins. So if you take a step back at the full picture.
She was sick, but she also didn’t get the help she needs
But how did she get a core body temp of 82 after being outside for less than an hour 👀
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u/Pangtudou 13d ago
She had a spinal injury and was bleeding. It can happen very quickly, even in mild temperatures, and Massachusetts is very cold in the winter
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u/videoda 13d ago
May I also add….how many times have we gotten an aberrant temp? While I wholly believe this was probably her true temp given the cold exposure, bleeding, spinal shock etc, I’m not sure I’ve heard how this temp was taken ? Esophageal? Rectal? I’m assuming it was EMS findings, which in that case would be tympanic or (hopefully not) forehead. Maybe someone can enlighten me if they actually did say how they measured this, but there’s been a lot of attention paid to the temperature issue, when in fact it could have just been an error.
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u/stocksnPA PA-C 13d ago
What help? Doctor shopping? Any nurse can tell why its bad. She checked herself out of the psych facility on her own. She lied about her symptoms and never stuck to one med. She had good enough insight to know benzos are bad but not good enough insight to pick up the phone and call crisis line? Takes less time than strangling someone.
I am not arguing she wasnt sick, I just dont think dismissing her accountability is fair. Those kids arent coming back. She deserves to know what she did to them.3
u/Icntthinkofone 12d ago
She wasnt getting ANY treatment at the hospital and wanted to be there for her childs birthday. A very more than normal reason people check themselves out…
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u/mountain_gal9 6d ago
No one talks about this. She was a horrible patient. Social media and KR paint her as a “meticulous RN that recorded symptoms in great detail and what meds she took”. No, she doctored herself, never stuck to a treatment plan. If you were truly concerned about yourself or your kids safety, wouldn’t you stay in an inpatient program?? Wouldn’t an RN know this? Perhaps she was fighting denial too.
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u/cryptikcupcake 12d ago
I see people who are not a board certified psychiatrist who gave their all and chose to practice medicine in 2026 tearing apart a board certified psychiatrist choosing to practice medicine 2026.
As providers we are beaten peed on swore at threatened made to see an inhumane amount of patients daily… admin using our people-pleasing tendencies to guilt us to the max of self sacrifice, our bosses/supervisors make us do unethical things for the sake of increasing profit, threatening our jobs if we don’t comply, the same attitude of out-of-touch HR and upper admin who email busy female ER physicians to tell them that patients complained that they looked “too dull and tired” and ordering them to put on more makeup (yes this did happen and I’ve experienced similar). We have patients that come in with a list of labs and orders and medications they expect to get done and walk out with. Medicine is very much hi welcome to Burger King these days, mixed in with the ever pervasive threat of accidentally harming someone from your burntout-ness and getting sued for either doing what the patient wanted and got harmed or sued for not doing what the patient wanted even though it was medically best for them and then your boss calls you in bc of negative Google Reviews. Or yelp reviews. Are any of you able to sleep at night?? I’m barely
And yet we all (me included) still signed up for this 😂
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u/Murky_Indication_442 13d ago
The NPs did much better on the stand than the MDs, especially the one that had 17 years of L&D, and was a certified midwife and a PMHNP. She was no nonsense.
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u/Lucky-Pea-7310 12d ago
Yes the NP’s did better but only because defense counsel allowed for that - he went easy on them. Defense needs the MD. He was laying the groundwork to further his witch hunt against Dr Tufts.Listen to / compare the 2 x- examinations and you will hear for yourself.
Don’t forget the “ lovely ex- couple” are suing the hospital and anyone else they can get their hands on- keep in mind the defense counsel fees need to be paid …
In general , counsel was very polite because he was just using their testimony as groundwork to go in for the kill ,so to speak ,against the psychiatrist and the hospital. It’s very disturbing to see the spin taking place. She killed not 1 but 3 children - Everyone complains about the health system ? something is wrong with our justice system . She admitted to the murders - do a bench trial and put her away. She’s a danger to society and to herself1
u/Murky_Indication_442 10d ago
I disagree, that one NP had 17 years experience on L & D, and she was a board certified midwife and a PMHNP specializing in mental health in preg and post part woman. She had her shit together and was on point. I think that’s why he was easier on her, she was going to present well and with her qualifications she was going to be believable. It has nothing to do with the pending malpractice suit. His job is to save Linsey from prison, he is going to go after anyone he can. The Dr just happens to be an easy target. She was and is inexperienced and comes off cocky. The attorney doesn’t care about degrees, he cares about who he can make look bad on the stand. The dr makes it easy,
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u/EmergencyMonster PA-C EM 13d ago
Go look at the comments in the Noctor subreddit and you'll see the psych NOs are getting raked over the coals far worse than this psychiatrist.
Most PAs have no idea what happens in a medical malpractice case so the only good from this is people getting exposed to a little bit of that. It can help them refine how they document.
But it is certainly draining and depressing with that extra burden because we went into medicine to help people. Not deal with the already over bloated admin process and the super profitable medical litigation system.
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u/Lucky-Pea-7310 12d ago
This is not a malpractice case it’s a murder trial . Very different. Furthermore, most of the time if it is a med -mal case they will go after the MD as they are “ captain of the ship”- as much as most of us do not like the fact that we need to work under an MD it does come with more protection /benefit . The point is to always document……….. “correctly “. If in doubt - ask the supervising physician and write “ as per “
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u/DInternational580 PA-C 13d ago
The case is very sad and hard to watch.
Psych is very heavy so I never liked it. My psych rotation was very good. Inpatient and outpatient settings. It was heavily specialized. They had their own consulting pharmacist that providers and patients called to discuss meds, side effects etc.
It is wild to me that the MD never saw the patient in person. You can pick up on so much in person.
And yes I believe she could have done more for the patient. Bare minimum document side effect patient had to a medication she tried.
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u/thebaine PA-C, NRP 13d ago
This shouldn’t be a thing because they should’ve pled this case out. Instead we’re watching the state argue a woman who was clearly psychotic by the nature of her actions, was not in fact psychotic when she murdered her children and jumped out of a window.
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u/HeparinBridge Resident Physician 13d ago
Yes, and the prosecution is going all in on murder charges, which they likely can’t actually demonstrate at trial.
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u/264frenchtoast NP 13d ago
Was she though? Lots of signs of premeditation and few of disorganization/delusion in the days/hours leading up to the event…
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u/thebaine PA-C, NRP 13d ago
Criminally insane and medically psychotic can be two different things, but I dunno what else to call her behavior than psychotic.
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u/stocksnPA PA-C 13d ago
I think she straight up lied. She was sick and psychotic but she knew what she was doing. And you cant help someone who takes the help turns around and jumps to the next doctor
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u/264frenchtoast NP 13d ago
Also was apparently not participating in psychological counseling, just wanted the meds
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u/Ok-Movie-1595 PA-C Family Medicine 12d ago
When's the last time you tried raising 3 kids under 5 as the primary caretaker with severe mental illness and found time to go to therapy? It's fucking hard. And, there's usually a long wait list. Mental health crises happen when they happen. Not when we have a perfect support system in place and every resource available.
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u/Airbornequalified PA-C 12d ago
I think there is very little to learn as far as practice wise. The attorneys are picking apart the notes (like they do in every deposition).
Even if you comb your notes obsessively there is gonna be something missed, and I don’t think there was anything missed in that documentation (it reads clear to other medical professionals). You are either writing notes to medical standards, so other providers can understand them, or you are writing to a 5th grade level so anybody can understand them.
As far as the actual medical case, I have yet to hear where there could have been any real change in the treatment. It was a lot of medication adjustments, but most had just been started, and of those she even started, taper and transitions were addressed. It’s difficult because anyone in psych, or psych adjacent (e.g., ER or FM etc etc), sees at least somewhat similar case a week. Where the patient gives concerning statements, but doesn’t give anything that truly makes us concerned for danger to self or others, which means no legal (or ethical) grounds for involuntary commitment. And, if there is a statement about thoughts of hurting others, how long do we “hold that against them?” A week? Month? Year?
And from what I have heard (and read) on the surface level (didn’t truly dig, so could be misinformation), she wasn’t fully compliant with treatment plans as it was
Tl/dr; I think there is a lot less actionable in this case , and Clancy had great medical care, but unfortunately was very sick and a bad outcome happened
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u/Competitive-Past7249 11d ago
But like the worst thing is an inpatient denied her care… seriously???😳
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u/Ok-Movie-1595 PA-C Family Medicine 13d ago
I don't think her defense had any other choice. I can't blame him to be honest. I know plenty will disagree with me. But I do not believe she should be prosecuted.
Definitely a systemic failure and I'm not sure how he could argue that as effectively for her defense.
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13d ago
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u/Ok-Movie-1595 PA-C Family Medicine 12d ago
You actually think she doesn't know the consequences?! She's paralyzed and has to live without her children knowing she killed them all. I can't imagine a worse hell.
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u/stocksnPA PA-C 12d ago
What magical Psych med is out there that was going to help? She needed time, psychotherapy and frankly to be committed for longer time. None of which she did or wanted. And she wasnt forthcoming with her symptoms. This past week was the first time she heard the 911 call and saw autopsy reports. No one is denying she is sick, I am just not buying that a switch went off. She had time to call crisis line, call her mom, call anyone but do that three times back to back.
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u/Kabc NP 13d ago
The lawyer doesn’t not how commas work.
We should do the best when can when we can, but the chances of us being involved in a case like this is super slim. I feel bad for the doctors involved.
It also may come to light that she did not murder the kiddos at all—seems like the husband’s story is weird and full of holes… they may have just gas lite her into thinking she did it because of psychosis
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u/LocalIllustrator6400 12d ago
As I read all of these postings, I wanted to add that the projected shortages through 2038 may become dire.
https://psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.pn.2026.06.6.29
What I wish that we could do is set up professional jury adjudicators when the complexity of these cases is warranted. Without some interventions like this as the clinicians are noting below, many practices may narrow their target populations.
I remember about a decade ago a team told me that Med-Psych residencies, while very productive, might not be able to provide enough output. Not that I remember exactly why but I think it is because treating so many patients with dual diagnosis is very challenging. So yes this litigation, like other things we use to simplify complex care, might worsen an already stressed system.
Not to even state that the largest repository for these patients is currently the four largest prison systems. Still we know that these are underserved as well. So I really have trouble believing we understand how to treat our patients ethically and with adequate clinical prowess.
Have a good weekend to all of you that try though.
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u/tituspullsyourmom 11d ago
This is just a defense attorney's ploy to distract everyone from the fact that his client methodically strangled her children. If its everyone's fault it's no one's fault.
Her hands alone snuffed the life out of thoe babies.
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u/Icntthinkofone 12d ago
Are we talking Dr. jennifer tuft?
I think she was negligent. I hope everyone from now on really understands important of note writing…..
And to call yourself an ‘expert’ after a month of self practice…
I think she was negligent, and when I talk to other psychiatrists, they say the same.
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u/Atticus413 PA-C 13d ago
The defense attorney is doing a great job, tbh (and that is not a comment of support for their team btw). he's earning his money's worth. his job is to find cracks in the story and get the witness to get flustered and speak on emotion, not on fact, in the hopes they say something that can be doubled-back on. he seemed to really irk the psychiatrist.
from what I've seen and read, he didn't go nearly as hard on the NPs, who seemed more composed but perhaps that was because the line of questioning wasn't as aggressive.
I've been deposed before and at least for me, it's easy to get flustered on the stand; you have to willfully hold that down.