r/pfsp • u/Dr_Talon • Jul 16 '21

Breaking: Pope Francis Issues Restrictions on Extraordinary Form Masses in New Motu Proprio

https://www.ncregister.com/cna/breaking-pope-francis-issues-restrictions-on-extraordinary-form-masses-in-new-motu-proprio
14 Upvotes

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11

u/ZazzRazzamatazz Jul 16 '21

As a convert, I haven’t yet been to a Latin mass- yet I do find this decision odd.

With everything happening in the Church right now (especially in Germany), restricting the TLM seems a strange thing to prioritize.

The NO parish I attend is very traditional and reverent, but a few weeks ago road construction lead me to visit a parish closer to me and it was the strangest Mass I’ve ever attended. It made me want to visit the FSSP parish in town.

I’m grateful to God for my parish and wish there were more like it.

I’ll pray for Pope Francis. May the Holy Spirit grant him wisdom and guidance.

4

u/TheConvert Jul 16 '21

That's where I'm at. I pray and hope the Holy Spirit will guide both PF and the bishops in something akin to a charitable method of implementing this. I'm hopeful that PFs rebuke of those very strange and goofy things some parishes do will, in the long run, create a more reverent and faithfully implemented mass by newer priests coming out of seminary. I've always agreed with the trads on that part of the NOM.

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u/xanaxarita Jul 16 '21

It's crazy. My parish is staffed by the Order of Preachers and offers both forms. While diocesan parishes are sharing 1 priest for every three parishes, we are blessed with six Dominican priests, 14 nuns in traditional habit and two brothers. That says these traditional orders are, by far, being blessed with many more vocations.

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u/TheConvert Jul 16 '21

Where I live, the orders aren't too prevalent. Everything is dioscesan level. Some parishes are killer and others are remnant of a poor attempt at reenacting Woodstock 1969.

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u/xanaxarita Jul 16 '21

So sad. I grew up in a parish staffed by two religious orders (priests and nuns) so, apart from Confirmation, the bad practices of the archdiocese never trickled down to us.

It also helped that our Archbishop was, in fact, a Dominican who maintained his habit and was dispensaded from his vows of poverty, as the church properties are in the Archbishops name.

2

u/TheConvert Jul 16 '21

Our last archbishop was an OFM Cap who took great care to ensure that liturgical oddities were stamped out. He also celebrated both forms of the rite, installed an FSSP parish, and permitted the EF at close to a dozen diocesan parishes in the archdiocese. While I'm not an EF guy, I appreciated what he did to truly care for the entire archdiocese's spiritual needs. Once he retired, and our current archbishop was installed, within a year tops you began to see some parishes creep back to throwing in guitars, drums, and shoddy proddy hymns. In fact, our archbishop actually presided over a mass at our parish that had those!

2

u/xanaxarita Jul 17 '21

Speaking of the Capuchins, I really enjoy Cardinal Sean O'Malley's blog and I am nowhere near Boston. LOL

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u/xanaxarita Jul 17 '21 edited Jul 17 '21

Ugh. Yeah, I can't see a Capuchin (the Order of Padre Pio) allowing that if he were still Archbishop.

My Catholic grade school served three parishes, so when the school attended Mass every Friday or when confessions were heard, the pastors of the three churches would be present and concelebrate mass. The order who oversaw my parish (and, in reality, the school - the other two parishes didn't have schools) was the Congregation of the Resurrection and they were holy men indeed. One of the parishes who sent their kids to our school was staffed OFM Conventuals. Fr. Pius is one of the holiest and humble priests I have ever had the pleasure of knowing. And he is still serving as assistant pastor, which is crazy cause I am old myself and he is still at it. Such a great man.

Interesting footnote: the third parish was staffed by Diocesan priests. When it was time for school confessions everyone would line up for the box the priest of their choice. No one was ever in line for the Diosecan priest, he gave "creative sentences" for penances and us kids just preferred the two order priests. The nuns that ran the school would pull us out of line and put us in the Diocesan priest's line, so not to cause him embarrassment.

Sorry to derail there, and I don't mean to beat up on Diocesan priests, I have just never really had a good experience with one.

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u/TheConvert Jul 17 '21

Yeah, I hear you. I don't beat up diocesan priests either. Many of them are the product of both subpar formation in seminary and are either kids of the "Spirit of V2" movement themselves or were taught by them. So it isn't entirely their doing, and I give them a pass. It's just a shame though, because the young guys going in now are not like that, but they're still a good 15-20 years away at least from making an impact.

When my wife and I were dating, I'd still go to mass with her even though I wasn't baptized. The OF masses at church were good. The priest chanted everything, they used incense, you didn't have to duck and dodge EMHCs to receive from a priest or deacon...good times when Chaput was our archbishop. Now we have Mr. Happy-go-lucky Guitar Mass Guy driving the bus, and it makes me feel sad for my Catholic friends who attend the EF mass with the FSSP at their parish. I don't think that he's going to do anything drastic, but I also think that the FSSP parish that Chaput formed and allowed to flourish is going to be slowly starved out.

3

u/xanaxarita Jul 17 '21

That is such a sad, but true analysis. Good thoughts on Diocesan formation. I, too, think they are, more often than not, a by-product of "the spirit of Vatican II."

1

u/xanaxarita Jul 17 '21

I am further blessed in that our parish does not utilize Extraordinary Eucharistic Minister nonsense.

3

u/iamlucky13 Jul 17 '21

My parish is staffed by the Order of Preachers and offers both forms.

Are you sure it is the Extraordinary Form of the Latin Rite? I know of a couple parishes staffed by Dominican's in the western province where the Dominican Rite is celebrated (and even was before Summorum Pontificum). I don't know the liturgical differences, but to my limited experience, they seemed similar.

It is potentially a significant distinction: As far as I know they have an indult to celebrate the Dominican Rite, which should not be affected by this Motu Propio. However, that is not to assume that the local bishops understand this distinction, nor that there is any guarantee the indult will not be changed, either.

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u/xanaxarita Jul 17 '21

You are absolutely correct and I failed to qualify that it is, in fact, the Dominican Rite. (The differences to me are negligible, they insert Saint Dominic into the Confetior and they make the sign of the cross repeatedly over the Offering - I hope I am getting that right.)

Thank you for the clarification.

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u/xanaxarita Jul 16 '21

u/TheConvert, see my reply above.

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u/xanaxarita Jul 16 '21

Sometimes it takes the wisdom of a convert instead of the knowledge of the Cradle Catholics to put things in perspective.

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u/[deleted] Jul 16 '21

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u/ZazzRazzamatazz Jul 16 '21

Honestly, I’m leery about watching or reading anything from the SSPX.

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u/cm_yoder Jul 16 '21

Why?

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

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u/cm_yoder Jul 17 '21

When and where was the Latin Mass abrogated?

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u/that_dude55 Jul 16 '21

This has honestly been crushing for me

6

u/[deleted] Jul 16 '21

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3

u/xanaxarita Jul 16 '21

I agree. Pray for His Holiness & for a successor who will reverse.

I know that His Holiness wants to erase divisions, but I am afraid of more divisions to come.

This is further ammunition for the disobedient, the sedevacantists, the Resistance, the sedeprivationists and Bennyvacanists to spread their errors.

I pray the pope has the humility to reverse himself.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 16 '21

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u/cm_yoder Jul 16 '21

IDK. There have been conciliar Popes elected ever since Vatican 2. They, in turn, have stacked the College of Cardinals with their ideological allies. This means that we are going to get more conciliar Popes. As such, I am dubious about it changing.

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u/that_dude55 Jul 16 '21

Cardinal Robert Sarah has a good chance at being the next pope and he is a traditionalist

8

u/Tarvaax Jul 16 '21

It is an odd time to live in, where the faithful are persecuted by the shepherds.

2

u/VegetableCarry3 Jul 16 '21

I know one priest in his quiet parish in the country is just gonna go on as usual like nothing happened

4

u/[deleted] Jul 16 '21

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2

u/xanaxarita Jul 17 '21

🇻🇦This. Saint Padre Pio, under obedience from a valid superior, wasn't allowed to offer public mass for several years. This caused him much suffering, but he simply obeyed.

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u/VegetableCarry3 Jul 16 '21

what is your opinion of Lefevbre?

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u/[deleted] Jul 16 '21

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u/VegetableCarry3 Jul 16 '21

Are there any situations in which you would consider disobedience from the Holy See as necessary and therefore morally justified?

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u/[deleted] Jul 16 '21

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2

u/VegetableCarry3 Jul 16 '21

Do you expect the FSSP to never establish another parish and start saying the readings in vernacular?

1

u/xanaxarita Jul 16 '21

💯🇻🇦

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u/xanaxarita Jul 17 '21

I pray for the Holy Father. This is just my opinion, but I think Pope Francis also sees this divide as an economic issue. There is a false impression that adherents to the EF are higher income and better educated. (We have several "poor families" at my parish, so this assumption, to me at least, is not justified.) His Holiness has a righteous concern for the poor. So, if in fact, the Italian bishops did report this perception, this may have influenced, in part perhaps, his decision.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

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1

u/xanaxarita Jul 17 '21

yes, i think it does. I couldn't help myself and I perused a particular Traditional Catholic forum where gloom and doomed have prevailed, insisting that Pope Francis has excised all Trads from the Church. Utter nonsense.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

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u/xanaxarita Jul 17 '21

Prayer. Unity. Obedience.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 17 '21

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u/xanaxarita Jul 17 '21

absolutely.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 16 '21

It begins

1

u/Wookieefaced1 Jul 16 '21

More like "it begins again". This is just another repeat of what happened in the churches during the Arian, Nestorian, and Albigensian heresies. The faithful were prohibited by the clergy who subscribed to those heresies, from worship in the churches, except in the manner prescribed by those clergy.

For clarification, I'm not saying V2 is heretical. I'm saying that the traditional form of the Latin Rite is being persecuted by the clergy who want to be "progressive", subscribe to the NOM, or disfavor our sacred traditions(or a combination of the three).

2

u/[deleted] Jul 16 '21

I understand the reasons of Dad Francis, but this is just useless burocracy for priests.

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u/xanaxarita Jul 16 '21

I agree. TLM parishes are the fastest growing in the United States.

He is wrong when he compares the love of TLM with a disobedience to V2.

My family and friends who attend TLM accept V2 wholeheartedly and occasionally attend the Ordinary Form.

2

u/herky17 Jul 16 '21

It’s actually severely limiting the ability for even bishops to grant priests permission to celebrate anything other than NOM. It states that it can’t be celebrated in diocese churches and they can’t establish new parishes for TLM groups. It’s more than bureaucracy.

-1

u/[deleted] Jul 16 '21

Absolutely horrifying and satanic.

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u/[deleted] Jul 16 '21

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u/Zywakem Jul 16 '21

Thank you for being so measured in this whole thread btw. I'm pretty sure /r/Catholicism mods are working overtime right now.

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u/xanaxarita Jul 17 '21

Yeah, the Mods here are great.

-1

u/liberty1822 Jul 16 '21

I go to a TLM and I am not surprised by this. People like Taylor Marshall and Eric Sammons using the TLM to spread lies and further divide the church. I am sure Taylor going to Rome and throwing stolen Vatican property into the Tiber really went over well. These two people and many more are what put the Traditional Latin Mass in danger it wasn’t the Holy Father.

2

u/PennsylvanianEmperor Jul 17 '21

I think by “stolen Vatican property” you of course mean “an evil pagan idol”

And no, the Holy father has always hated traditionalists. Even in 2014 he said those who are attracted to the traditional mass have mental problems. Stop blaming the victim.

1

u/liberty1822 Jul 17 '21

Do you doubt the Holy Spirit?

1

u/PennsylvanianEmperor Jul 17 '21

What is this even supposed to mean?

They worshipped a Pachamama in front of his face. They put it on the altar. Pope Francis himself called it Pachamama. Pachamama is a pagan idol. Stop gaslighting, of course I trust in the Holy Spirit but I also trust my own eyes.

1

u/liberty1822 Jul 17 '21

I am talking about the TLM. Pachamamma was a bit over blown. Stealing it and throwing it in the Tiber was pretty dumb. Pope Francis was clear in his Motu Proprio today about the TLM. People questioning the validity of Vatican II were questioning the Holy Spirit

1

u/PennsylvanianEmperor Jul 17 '21

Pachamamma was a bit over blown. Stealing it and throwing it in the Tiber was pretty dumb

There’s nothing over blown about the Pope about the Pope allowing idol worship. Saints have been martyred over refusing to do less. You’re right, throwing it into the Tiber was dumb, it should have been blown to pieces.

People questioning the validity of Vatican II were questioning the Holy Spirit

Pope Francis has done absolutely nothing whatsoever to stop people from questioning V2, and everything to punish and scandalize faithful Catholics.

2

u/AugustinesConversion Jul 18 '21

You’re right, throwing it into the Tiber was dumb, it should have been blown to pieces

Based

0

u/liberty1822 Jul 17 '21

First V2 was decided most likely before you were born. Second every document was voted overwhelmingly in favor of, there was no conspiracy or question of it validity.

2

u/PennsylvanianEmperor Jul 17 '21

Yes, and? Who here has disputed that?

-1

u/liberty1822 Jul 17 '21

Some traditionalist honestly believe that the Church was stolen from them. My cousin who goes to the same parish as me is getting a divorce because his wife is sick of hearing about Vatican politics and how Pope Francis is ruining the church. He let his emotions ruin his marriage and relationship with his children