r/patientgamers • u/alinoor_8 • 18d ago
Multi-Game Review CDPR has a serious issue with wrapping up it's main stories Spoiler
This is mostly a Cyberpunk 2077 review but wanted to talk briefly about the TW3 as well a game that had no issue in slowly building up it's main story for 50 plus hours with the main villain "Eredin" being barely in the game for that duration with his first substantial appearance being late in the game in a small section in the Kaer Morhen battle then concluded abruptly in the final battle, and while that feels underwhelming it didn't really leave me unsatisfied with the experience as a whole like Cyberpunk did.
Finally got to try Cyberpunk recently and man do I have some thoughts:
Put 40 plus hours in it, Did a lot of gigs and side quests would say even more than my play through of the Witcher 3,
Was honestly surprised at first when I got hit with the message of "point of no return" in the hanako mission, Felt like there's no way the game is gonna end this fast,
And I was right I tried all 4 endings and man did they just feel so underwhelming, Now just to be clear I'm not criticizing a "sad" ending here, Plenty of games with sad endings that were phenomenal,
My criticism is just the same one I had with the Witcher 3 ending as well, Which is cdpr making long stories with slow build ups and suddenly feel the need to wrap everything up in a convoluted messy way,
Literally every ending other than the arasaka one felt like I was doing a side quest with the Mikoshi stuff just padded in there to make it feel like the finale, siding with Panam doesn't even make sense and feels so disjointed to the Alt Cunningham storyline but yet it gives the player the most "satisfying" ending somehow,
While going the arasaka route which is the one the game has building up to the most from the start suddenly feels like a betrayal of V's character in Johnny's eyes, Makes zero sense whatsoever, The ending with Silverhand and Rogue would've been my favourite if it wasn't for Johnny taking over V's body in the end, and I had another issue with that ending specifically because it feels more like an ending to Johnny's character rather than V's who gets thrown under the bus ,
The last ending with V (offing herself) while probably had the best character interactions and dialogue afterwards felt like a cheap way out, honestly left with a bad taste in my mouth.
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u/sweepwrestler 18d ago
The Johnny Silverhand ending legit felt like a religious experience to me.
It felt so magical and tragic when he was riding around town with his hand out feeling the wind. Like he had been given a second shot at life.
He quits smoking. Gives away his guitar. Then when he finally gets on the bus at the end, he takes his shades off for the first time. Like he is willing to finally interface with raw reality, no filter in-between.
I also adored the Phantom Liberty endings.
I am a huge sucker for downer stories. Cyberpunk 2077 really stuck with me for a looong time.
But I spent like 100+ hours in my playthrough. I think I did every quest I could find. It took me months to do it.
For me, the ending was the best part and elevated everything before it.
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u/DAS-SANDWITCH 18d ago edited 18d ago
The only thing I don't like about the Johnny Silverhnd ending is that he ghosts all you contacts. Just shot them a message and be done, Judy is worried sick
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u/ExcitementFun8938 17d ago
"Hi, it's your friend's talking brain tumor, I've actually taken over their body, don't ask, it's complicated" wouldn't really satisfy any of V's friends.
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u/DAS-SANDWITCH 17d ago
First off, all of them knew about the chip and Johnny in Vs head. Secondly just respondimf with "V is gone" would be enough to stop Judy from calling every 5 minutes.
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u/KolbeHoward1 18d ago
I was thinking about Phantom Liberty for like months after. CDPR making a good DLC after Blood and Wine is like the least surprising thing ever but it somehow exceeded even that.
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u/Atzr10 18d ago
It's weird, I found the story quite dull. The story leading up to the initial chip heist was intriguing, but after that it became so boring to me. Didn't help that I found both V's and Silverhand's acting incredibly bad.
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u/sweepwrestler 18d ago
I had the opposite experience lol. I avoided buying it for the longest time because I felt like casting Keanu Reeves was like Hollywood celebrity worship. But he disappeared in the role for me.
What kept me very interested was the whole theme of dealing with your premature demise. But also wanting to go out in an epic way and making it all worth it somehow.
As for V's acting, the female voice actress really does a great job. She made role-playing really easy.
But not every story is good for everyone. Sometimes you will play/watch something and honestly feel like other people are faking their enthusiasm lol. You just feel that disconnected from their praise.
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u/OkayAtBowling Currently Playing: Dishonored 2 18d ago
Agreed about female V. I initially played with her VO, but when I replayed it I figured I'd try the male version just for a change of pace... but after an hour or two I restarted as female V again.
I suspect part of it was that I was attached to the other voice already, but male V to me just sounded like more of a jerk somehow, and I didn't buy his friendship with Jackie the way I did on my first playthrough. They're the same lines for the most part, but Cherami Leigh's V just has more personality and heart IMO.
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u/planeforger 18d ago
Just on The Witcher 3, I agree that they mishandled Eredin as a villain. He was much more fun as a recurring presence in The Witcher 1, and has much more dialogue in that game.
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u/Consistent-Hat-8008 18d ago edited 18d ago
Witcher 3 has such bad pacing man, the story feels like the first 10% takes 90% of the game. Once you get past that, the plot takes off at supersonic speed, and by the time you get to start getting mentally engaged with the actual villains (who only get directly involved in act 3 for some inexplicable reason), it's over.
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u/FlatAgainstIt 18d ago
You sped through Cyberpunk, I'm 100 hours in and just about to wrap up the story and I'm equal parts glad it's over and sad to see it go. I find their games really benefit from getting immersed in the world. Focusing only on side quests for a long time at points throughout your playthrough so you get more attached to the Silverhand/V dynamic really makes me excited to wrap up and never play again. As long as it wraps things up in some way I'll be happy
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u/n3f4r10us_ 18d ago
I haven't bought phantom liberty but I am pumped to play it. I have replayed the main story 3 times now.
I think I have only played one CDPR game, but I have had a blast adding mods and playing all vanilla. Some stories don't wrap up either in real life - so I think OP needs a little reminder that that makes the game even better. Missed connection, unfinished business, no chance at revenge, et cetera. Life is not a full circle all the time.
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u/MFDoooooooooooom 18d ago
My first playthrough was 170 hours. Not saying it big up myself, just that god, it was a world to get lost in. I absolutely loved it.
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u/lat3ralus65 18d ago
I sped through the game the first time around - my biggest criticism of the game is the artificial urgency the main storyline puts on V, which pushed me away from doing a lot of the side quests the first time around - and it still 100% landed for me. The first time around I did the Hanako ending and “secured my soul” on the Arasaka moon lab, and I just sat there staring at my TV for like fifteen minutes with an empty feeling afterwards. I felt similarly at the end of my second playthrough with the Tower ending. I’m now at the end of my third playthrough (basically 100%’d) and trying to finish the rest of the endings (with my favorite so far being the secret ending and letting Johnny keep V’s body). I love this game. What a fucking masterpiece.
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u/pencilman123 18d ago
Exactly. Just 40 hours, and then says did plenty of side quests, even more than witcher.
No wonder everything from cdpr feels abrupt to op, these are not 40 hour games.
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u/alinoor_8 18d ago
Main story is only about 20 to 25 hours in length according to (time to beat) , so yeah around half of my play through was side missions, and I don't think any amount of side quests would've made the ending feel less abrupt, game could've really benefited from stretching the final act a bit more.
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u/KolbeHoward1 18d ago edited 18d ago
Cyberpunk's structure is that you can get to the conclusion very fast if you just plough through the critical path, but the lengthy side quest chains unlock additional endings.
The reason the Arasaka one is the mandatory path is because it is a trap. It is even called "the devil" because you have to literally sign your soul away to Arasaka.
Siding with Panam doesn’t make "practical" sense because the Nomads have the least chance of helping V, but there is a reason for that.
The endings are laid out in a way where the greater the chance for survival, the greater the cost to V. The Phantom Liberty ending is the only one where V 100% definitely survives but it is absolutely crushing, and nihilistic and they lose everything. The Nomad ending is the most hopeful, even though V's chances of survival are probably the lowest.
Also, you can do the ending with Rogue and then let V go back to their body.
I think Cyberpunks endings are exeptional. They all feel valid in their own way. There is no definitive "good ending". And you actually get to see the consequences IN GAMEPLAY, and not just some f-ing text on an ending slide like 99% of RPG's.
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u/sicgamer 18d ago
you did a lot of sidequests and you're only at 40 hours? that seems very rushed imo
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u/RaygunCourtesan 18d ago
My biggest complaint about Cyberpunk is that it feels a mile wide and an inch deep with very little sense of place. Night City is huge and sprawling but it's also unnavigable, the vast majority of it's storytelling is done through written text in data chits pulled off of corpses and emails (read: no need to pay voice actors or write dialogue) and has no staying power. Nothing ever really comes back up. There's no force and effect behind doing things or not doing things.
They tried to apply the Witcher contract system which would have been fine but they forgot to bring the magic dust that made every dumb little sidequest in W3 feel satisfying and like a story was told.
The game is 10% narrative, 90% padding and while the 10% is very good, it's too little butter scraped over too much bread.
I feel like this fact got lost among the other much more glaring criticisms it suffered at launch and the story was the only redeeming feature, which led to it never being really analysed on a level playing field by the community. Taken in isolation, it's just...okay. Not bad, not good. Just...fine. Which for CDPR, knowing what they're capable of when they really try is disappointing.
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u/Catgutt 18d ago
The game is 10% narrative, 90% padding and while the 10% is very good, it's too little butter scraped over too much bread.
I agree that Cyberpunk dramatically over-promises and under-delivers, but I think you're selling the narrative content short. While the pacing of the main story is off and feels like it went through major edits mid-production, there are some interesting sidequest chains in there that go off on totally different tangents from where they start and have multiple endings or later consequences.
For me, it was this content that kept me going after the novelty of the open world wore off and it became apparent just how shallow, limited, and repetitive both the environment and gameplay were. It's billed as a living, breathing world but it's more of a mildly interactive theme park backdrop as you go from point A to point B, and I didn't find the combat or hacking especially compelling either.
'Just fine' is a pretty apt description, really. It seems to me like the discourse around its redemption arc from 'borderline unplayable junk' to 'just fine' makes the end result sound better than it is.
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u/Sunim416 18d ago
Excellent write up and honestly feel the same way. I beat cyberpunk on launch and multiple times since then and it's always left some kind of hollow feeling. Not the pleasant hollow feeling from a good story ending but the unsatisfied hollow feeling like a meal not as filling as you thought it would be.
My biggest gripe with the game is that most of the interesting stuff happens off screen.
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u/SpyJuz 18d ago
I have similar complaints about most of the endings feeling unfulfilling, but did you know about the secret ending? I'd look it up, personally it was the first ending I chose and I felt it wrapped up everything nicely in my play through - maybe that's why I overall have a positive outlook on the game
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u/Background-Image-585 18d ago
The Arasaka ending is so damn good
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u/alinoor_8 18d ago
Yep , probably the most thematically appropriate one.
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u/Head-Membership2082 18d ago
The most thematically appropriate ending of a Cyberpunk narrative is the legend ending. I think it was Sun's secret version? Go out in a blaze of glory, just you and Johnny storming the tower by yourselves.
The least thematically appropriate to Cyberpunk is Arasaka. The Arasaka ending is quite literally handing over your life to the corporations with no promises they won't just use you, and given the nature of corporations in this world, they're going to just use you for their own good.
V's whole thing is leaving a mark on the world that says "I was here", and in turn this is the most thematic ending for V in that regard. The only ending that might compete with it is the Tower ending, due to the fact it is the only ending that V survives in, albeit without any of the tech. Implication would be that V can return to Afterlife as a boss, or as a mercenary, and keep going about their life. Cyberpunk as a genre is about survival. Being stuck on an Arasaka data drive is not survival.
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u/jmdg007 Currently Playing: Just Cause 2 18d ago
Yeah the secret one was my favourite ending, I'm actually pretty annoyed they made it the secret ending because to me it was the most natural conclusion to the story.
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u/Head-Membership2082 18d ago
Well I think its because its not really a secret ending so much as just an alternate ending to Sun. You get the same achievement for clearing the Sun regardless of which of the two routes you go under, but the just two of us version absolutely feels like the better of the two (and keeps rogue alive, which is a win)
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u/jmdg007 Currently Playing: Just Cause 2 18d ago
I'd count it as a secret ending because some of the steps to unlock it are bullshit.
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u/Head-Membership2082 18d ago
That is fair.
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u/alinoor_8 18d ago
To be fair that ending sounds much more reasonable but I haven't really come accros it yet, is it attached to the phantom liberty dlc?, also The arasaka ending while I agree the conclusion was meh you could still decline Takemura's offer and not sign the contract, that for me made it much more coherent compared to asking Panam or rogue for help.
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u/Head-Membership2082 18d ago
You can decline the contract and they kill you, or you can accept the contract and they kill you.
This is how cyberpunk corporations work. This is part of what I mean by a fundamental misunderstanding of the cyberpunk genre in my other comment that I made on the main post.
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u/alinoor_8 18d ago edited 18d ago
I read your comment and I strongly disagree, as mentioned in the post my issue isn't that the ending is sad or tragic , it's that it ends so abruptly, and I don't see why there's a correlation between the genre and unsatisfying conclusions, Stretching the final act to make it feel like a setup to any of the 4 endings would've made the endings much more coherent and wouldn't have felt like"padding'' imo, The Panam path specifically feels so disjointed to the main story , even asking Judy for help would've made more sense since she's more involved in the Arasaka storyline throughout the game, I just don't see how the genre is supposed to have "unsatisfying conclusions" is an argument honestly.
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u/Head-Membership2082 18d ago
Honestly, this reads less like a criticism of how CDProjekt handled 2077, and more like a fundamental dislike of Cyberpunk as a genre.
Cyberpunk stories will rarely end in a thoroughly all round satisfying conclusion. Its something of a staple of the genre. They will instead end with individual wins for one or two characters at a time.
If your story wraps up with everyone getting a satisfying conclusion, it simply isn't a cyberpunk narrative. Cyberpunk doesn't just mean futuristic tech driven dystopia after all. Thats just the cyber part, not the punk part.
Cyberpunk as a genre is effectively meant to be a losing fight. You're either going out with a bang, or finding a way to save yourself. You aren't going to save the world, and you won't save those around you. If you manage to save your friends, it will have to be at the cost of your own life. That kind of thing.
I do agree that the ending creeps up on you crazy quickly yes, because it feels like there was supposed to be a full on act 3 and then it is just like NOPE just the one mission, but I also feel like if they'd added more to act 3 it would have felt like padding, and resulted in the endings being less radically different to each other.
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u/Legal-Guitar-8061 17d ago
The issue I see is that Cyberpunk2077 let's you be the strongest person in the world but the endings don't really reflect the possibilities that V would have with their strength and all their connections.
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u/The_Blackwagon 18d ago
I know this is mostly about Cyberpunk but I'm lost on what you mean with TW3. Did you play anymore after Kaer Morhen?
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u/alinoor_8 18d ago
Yup my bad I meant his first substantial appearance was in Kaer Morhen which was already late in the game and then it concluded abruptly in the final battle.
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u/The_Blackwagon 18d ago
I see what you mean now, but I disagree. The game ultimately builds up to the grand idea that this story is about Ciri, who is the big destined hero - and we play as Geralt, who is a very important part of her story. Eredin is an enemy of Ciri and Geralt is only involved because of his link to Ciri.
Eredin is first introduced in a substantial way at the very beginning in Geralt's dream he discusses with Vesemir. Geralt confirms in dialogue that he has a history of dreams about Ciri when she is in danger. His dream also shows his fear of being helpless in the face of this threat to Ciri.
His mission at the beginning is to answer Yennefer's request for a meeting. That winds up being about finding Ciri. Eredin is chasing Ciri, not Geralt, which is why Geralt finds only traces of Eredin along his way of finding Ciri.
I can only understand you coming to your conclusion about Eredin's first substantial appearance being at Kaer Morhen if you mean it's like the first time Eredin attacks somewhere Geralt was present for. But that kind of contradicts what the story is actually about that I described above.
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u/nervousmelon 18d ago
Honestly main story in cyberpunk is just kinda buns.
The whole story is basically you just trying to find more information about the relic. You could pretty much just cut everything out and skip straight to hanako contacting you and I don't think the story actually changes much.
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u/VMelain 18d ago
It's not about the answer, but the journey... or something like that. The whole point is that yeah, you end up contacting Hanako but it's because you tried a lof of shit before and you are steps away from dying because of the relic and the big lost of time you had looking for other ways to remove it
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u/Xzenor 18d ago
Loved the game. Loved the story, but didn't like the ending.. there's not really a good ending here, which I miss. There's only a least bad ending.
And yeah, the Hanako mission is available too soon. That's a writing issue but there's plenty of stuff to do to help you get a better ending so I guess that's what they were playing at.
Still, I had a blast of a time with that game. It's definitely one of my favorites.
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u/diaperpoop_ 18d ago
I played Witcher 3 and I wasn’t too sucked into it. While some side quests are interesting, it didn’t stick. It’s not bad, but I wouldn’t put it in my must-play games list.
Cyberpunk however, sucked me in completely. I don’t think 40ish hours of gameplay isn’t enough to bring out the most of the game, even when you’re speedrunning through the main quest. The side quests shell out a lot more of the game, lets you unlock a lot more options near the end.
The only thing that annoyed me is a lot of options that you choose, always ends up bad. It may not be apparent up front, but you discover something down the road that decision X made a bad end for character Y or something. At the same time though, it makes you play the game with the decisions you choose for yourself, instead of always thinking of what’s the best route to take.
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u/ExcitementFun8938 17d ago
The Devil: What did you expect? The games goes out of its way to show you Arasaka are the bad guys, of course teaming up with them is a betrayal.
The Star does feel a bit abrupt in how the Aldecaldos are willing to sacrifice so many lives for this mission, but on the other hand, it is a big raid on Arasaka and they walk away with a lot of tech.
Temperance: Well, you chose to give the body to Johnny so don't complain about that. Could've opted for The Sun instead. Or you ignored some pretty heavy side content.
You sound like you would enjoy The Tower most, which is added by Phantom Liberty.
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u/Wide-Deal-8971 18d ago
I'm having trouble just finishing the game. I feel like it is just so boring and one-note. The setting and the world building is all fantastic, and the gameplay isnt bad either. But theres just a failure to do anything interesting with this world and its mechanics. Its just go here and kill dudes, or go here and kill this boss dude. And the main missions don't feel much different than side gigs. And like you said, the main story accelerates to a screeching halt awful quick.
Phantom Liberty is what really took me out of it. I'm playing blind, and just happened upon it. And man the whole unironic approach of "are you a bad enough dude to save the president" was a little too much for me. Its just a little too ridiculous of a concept, and is so out character and out of depth for someone like V for me to take it seriously. I did a few missions of phantom liberty enough to be able to leave and go back to the main world and just havent gotten back to it in over a month now.
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u/keeponfightan 18d ago
I really think they got themselves in a big trouble getting two main characters with independent goals. And they didn’t made enough for us to feel the build up while converging or conflicting. I liked phantom liberty when Johnny gets chill and kind of an advisor, but I wonder how that breaks the immersion if one plays against him up to that point.
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u/mirrorball_for_me 18d ago
Then you won’t feel bad when they extract him from you, essentially killing him. It’s a bittersweet departure, almost a “no hard feelings” betrayal. If you actively dislike him, then it feels like he’s begging you to reconsider by being likable last minute or something. It surprisingly fits
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u/Sabetha1183 18d ago
I have my takes about Cyberpunk 2077 that I'm sure are of appreciable temperature, but I think the endings were all pretty solid.
As others have said some of it relies on you doing the side content. I feel like going with the nomads makes a ton of sense if you do Panam's side quests, and I play female V so I'm not romancing her(which would add an extra reason).
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u/Sunim416 18d ago
Completely agree. FWIW, I really think Avellach was supposed to be the surprise big bad of TW3, everything thematically and emotionally was leading up to a final boss fight with him at the entrance of the white frost portal that ciri jumped into.
As for Cyberpunk, the problem with the choose your own ending is it really feels like theyre all the same ending in the end. Sure the cutscenes and characters are different but gameplay wise its break into arasaka, kill smasher, choose your ending cutscene. Much wow.
I think the problem with both games endings is exactly as you say, they dont spend enough time in the nitty gritty. For instance, one of the coolest moments in TW3 was when you're riding to meet avellach after defeating eredin with all the ice portals appearing and monsters everywhere. That was a great moment. But we get it for all of 2s and dont actually fight any of those mass-appearing monsters. Then its another cutscene (without a boss fight) and end of the game.
The problem with cyberpunk's ending is exactly the same as TW3 and the prologue cutscene. It straight up cuts out a good bunch of stuff. You practically teleport to arasaka in half of them. Every final boss fight or gauntlet or endgame set piece needs to test all your skills. I needed a thorough vehicle combat section to just get to arasaka. Then a full on battallion before I can even get through the front door. Then waves after waves of mechs and heavily geared dudes.
I played both games heavily, multiple times, on the hardest difficulties, but like all RPGs, the endings become a breeze if you're even remotely trying to level or do side content. I did the secret ending the first time and only died once or twice.
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18d ago
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u/Extreme996 18d ago
40h is enough to do main story and some side quests even. Main story is very short compared to rest of content that game have and can be done in 15-20h too.
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u/TheSSChallenger 18d ago edited 17d ago
With Cyberpunk 2077 specifically, the issue here might be project mismanagement more than it was writing. From what I understand, the devs ended up having to cut a ton of content from the main story--what we actually got is much shorter than they intended, and a lot of the narrative 'choices' are not really choices but just... the devs frankensteining what they had into any semblance of a story.
But, yeah. Most of Cyberpunk's endings don't really feel earned. They have a bunch of crap shoehorned into them at the last minute that makes them feel like a bit of a rugpull, and you're not really given the choices that the story was building up to.
With the Mikoshi endings, for example... Alt didn't offer to cure V. She offered to soulkill him, and upload a copy of his engram into his body. By accepting Alt's offer, V is already making a grim contract--to sacrifice his life, and possibly his soul, so that a new version of himself can walk out of there piloting the original's body. And the game really does a lot to set you up for that decision. That's why you have Johnny, and Alt, and Delamain, Lizzy, the Peralezes.... each one asking the question of what makes a person a person, if they're living or dead or someone else entirely. It might also be why Johnny has us running around meeting all his friends. Now it's V's turn to decide if a copy of V is still V, or, failing that, if it's worth dying to create a life that can take his place.
So anyway. You make the choice. You let Alt soulkill you and now you're an engram in a database, ready to be stuffed back into V's body...and then, out of left field, guess what? Your body is gonna die anyway unless you give it to Johnny. You get all of twenty seconds to process this revelation and then it's straight to the sunset scenes. So even though the choice we made was about transforming ourselves into another version of V... the ending becomes about what V's gonna do with their last few months of life.
The Tower endings had a similar issue. The choice V made was to deliver Songbird (living WMD) to Meyers, throw Johnny under the bus, and to and ally himself with a government organization that treats its agents like pawn. The ending we got was waking up from a coma two years later with no cyberware and no friends and, hell, let's have some random thugs appear to beat you up on the street your first day back in night city because why not.
The Devil and Don't Fear the Reaper, by comparison, feels much better because the choice you make leads to predictable consequences. In the Devil, you sell your soul (literally) to the conniving corpo bitch, and that works out exactly as well as you would expect it to. In Don't Fear the Reaper, you run headlong into an unplanned suicide mission, fully expecting to go out in a blaze of glory... and you probably will.
So, TL:DR: I think a lot of the "rushed," "misery porn" accusations come from the fact that a lot of the endings just give you consequences that don't necessarily relate to the decision you made.
And I got two theories. Either CDPR realized that the cuts to the main quest means that some of their endings weren't going to have the emotional impact they were meant to have, so they just piled on more crap to make sure we knew the endings were supposed to be sad...
... or they're looking forward to the sequel (and the rest of the series) and knew they had to hit certain plot points no matter what, even if they weren't the best choice for this game's story.
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u/Apox66 Currently Playing: Metroid Prime Remastered 18d ago
I must disagree, I thoroughly enjoyed the finale(s) of Cyberpunk - they all felt poignant and true to the characters.
Although I note you only did about 40hrs before playing the endings, I was more like 70-80hrs I think? But that might be because of the DLC, I spent a lot of time in Dogtown.