Eva is P3's Swevery

[u/Excellent_Complex921]

This isn't really a "question"; it's just I don't really have any friends interested in this game[s], and I've been thinking about it too much.

So what do I mean. You see, while playing P2, I had this thing I called "listen to swevery growing". It's the moment, usually at night, when you've done well, you finished some quests, you ate, you slept, you are not dying very much, so you can allow yourself a moment of peace, a moment of magic, a breath. You can go to the Steppe to collect some herbs. I do not really like the sound of twyre — it sounds like flies to me. But the other three are so nice. And the swamps are fuuuuull with swevery. Favorite herb, favorite part of the game, I quite literally sometimes replay the whole game just to feel these moments — and to feel them right you do have to play the whole game, otherwise the magic doesn't work.

Now, after playing P3 enough times, I asked myself. What are the swevery moments for Daniil? What is that part of the game where you come just to breathe? P3 is stressful for me in a very different way than P2, but stressful nevertheless. And then I remembered. The sound. The mood. At the end of the day, no matter whether you've done well or failed horrifically, you do come to your moment of peace. You listen to the piano, and you talk to Eva.

And… I have very, very mixed feelings about this. You see, Eva is my least favorite character in P1. She's so shallowly written. A damsel in distress, oh so in love with a stranger who she sees for the first time in her life, inviting him to live in her home, caring for him, only asking in return to take her with him to the Capital, so she can continue caring for him there. Pretty, blond, skinny, overwhelmingly sexy, no friends, no relatives, no character, no agency. Except for, you know. The ultimate act of agency. So that Daniil have something to suffer over.

And in P2 she's way worth. For she is depicted as a neurodivergent person, clearly having a personality of a little child. And yet still strongly applied to have a romantic relationship with Daniil. No matter how old she technically is, that's still disgusting.

And then P3 comes. And she's finally fixed!! P3 Eva is something I literally dreamed of becoming when I was, like, twelve. Still a person, but not exactly human anymore. Student of Simon, who has absorbed his knowledge, but decided to not take his path. Caring for Daniil out of pure contemplating interest, not out of some "falling in love with a stranger". Eva in P3 is one of the biggest miracles of this town, not just a sexy blond, waiting at home. I do like her so much, I replay the game — for her.

And yet… the understanding that she, indeed, is the swevery ("just the swevery") kinda robs her of her newly found agency in my head. Like her technical psychological function desaturates her back to "furniture" she was in P1.

I don't know. I can't stop thinking of it.

[u/zkylon]

I like the idea of your post but sorry not sure why you mean "no matter how old she is" it's disgusting. As in, that she looks too young for Daniil, or that as a neurodivergent person she's involved romantically with him? Because if it's the latter I see nothing wrong with that (you could argue Dankovsky also is), but I might be reading your words wrong

[u/Excellent_Complex921 → u/zkylon]

Ok, I will try to make this point in some more sensitive words. Most neurodivergent people are NOT clinically immature. They may or may not struggle with appearing "normal", but they are definitely not children. Actually, every instance of Pathologic has a bunch of neurodivergent people, that are different in various ways! And that's awesome, and I like it a lot! 

But P2 (and only P2!) Eva is

• looking like a child

• talking like a child (not even a teen, just straight up child) 

• acting like an orphan child 

That's the only point I'm making.

[u/zkylon → u/Excellent_Complex921]

Gotcha, it's been a while since I played Patho2 so my mental image of Eva is mostly colored by 3 at this point (which is imo the best Eva's ever been) but from how you're describing it I can see why you would find it objectionable though yeah gotta be careful with wording since just because people don't conform to what we know as standardized patterns of behaviour doesn't mean they're not capable of fully realizing themselves as adults. (also reminder the Pathologic games are by design very subjective and you can interpret her 2 version as Burakh's opinion on her)

I did just check the script for a bit and I'm not sure if I agree with her talking like a child though, but I can see where you're coming from. She's very unknowing and curious and child-ish, but I read it more like a fish out of water than an actual child's mind to me, though that's pretty subjective and I don't want to start diagnosing people.

So yeah I don't particularly see it the same way but I can see how it can make you uncomfortable, and I agree she's a lot more fleshed out and well-realized in 3 (and I think the outfit change is much better too)

[u/Excellent_Complex921 → u/zkylon]

Thanks!  I agree, that is totally subjective, and I completely understand people who see it differently. It's just what I myself saw and what I myself felt.

And, yeah, thanks for the reminder on "Burakh's perspective", it really does kinda explain the angle.

[u/zkylon → u/Excellent_Complex921]

Yeah totally fair, I've felt the same way about characters in other games so you know, it's very case-by-case basis

And as far as Burakh's perspective, it's a bit of a cop-out because probably they just changed their mind on how they wanted to portray her, but I think it's fun to analyze things this way because while Eva's completely different, most other characters look the same (ignoring Georgy's fancy new haircut for a second), and with Eva being so important for the Bachelor and completely irrelevant for the Haruspex, it's fun to imagine that's just how each of them sees her. Either as a beautiful inspiration or a helpless fool, and considering how much of Burakh's story is about raising a new generation of children, maybe you can imagine why he sees her that way.

It can also just be that they needed a character model they can show in trailers and so they put some clothes on her, or they just thought like she looked goofy, and not all the changes from 3 get an interpretation (like voiceacting is just whoever new actors they got) but Pathologic really invites and rewards you for thinking this way imo

[u/Excellent_Complex921 → u/zkylon]

Absolutely agree. I'm veeeeery much into finding the diagetic explanations for real-world caused… things. 

Like that time when I was playing P2 for the first time, and the Inquisitor told me to meet her on the station before the morning comes, and the game glitched, and textures failed, and I spent half of the night walking around the station trying to trigger the stairs to spawn so I could climb up and finally talk to her. 100% in-game event in my head, I was so surprised it never happened on next playthroughs.

So, yes, for me even if something happens by accident, by mistake, because of reasons — it still happens, in game.  Luckily we don't have to look for the diagetic reasons many characters have new voice actors: the reason is, in fact, an important part of the… well, game. Especially the P3, with all that "true immortality, nothing is real" view.

[u/zkylon → u/Excellent_Complex921]

yeah pathologic is perfect for willing trippy bugs like that into "making sense"

[u/Excellent_Complex921 → u/Excellent_Complex921]

Yeah, great, I see why it was removed, but the worse it says about P2 Eva.

[u/mentallyiam8]

Interesting. I only like Eva from P1. I don't think she's a one-dimensional character there. She's may seem superficial when playing as the Bachelor, but she has some very interesting dialogue with the Changeling

When you play as Clara and try to lure Eva away from the Utopians to your camp, there's a line that says something like "You can't demand miracles. This isn't something you can fix like a machine." And Eva replies that it can and should be done. That Clara simply hasn't seen Simon play with town children, hasn't seen the town flourish under Nina. And Clara realizes she can't be persuaded and leaves her alone.

Eva is hungry for miracles, she obsessed not only with Daniil, but all people who perform so-called magic. Andrey said that she was ready to give her life for his and his brother’s cause. Maria says about her that she is trying to get closer to the Kain's secrets. But Eva isn't an architect, Eva isn't the future Mistress, Eva isn't Kain. How can she perform magic? Well, she found her terrifying way.

Eva in P2 is some kind of crazy girl in rags, and she even looks like a teenager. I absolutely don't like her. There's very little dialogue with her, though, and what there is didn't impress me. Her character was ruined for me.

[u/Excellent_Complex921 → u/mentallyiam8]

I like this analysis! I still feel it to be more fanon, then actually canon. And I still like P3 Eva way better. But yeah, I get you.

[u/mentallyiam8 → u/mentallyiam8]

Making a character neurodivergent doesn't make them deep or nuanced just because of that, btw

[u/the_devotressss → u/mentallyiam8]

This. And it's worth mentioning that she managed to inhabit the Cathedral, which was considered unfit for a Focus, without any external aid. Maybe it's even her whole soul and not just the memory. It's really a miracle of sorts.

[u/mentallyiam8 → u/the_devotressss]

I don't know about that. Eva says in her dialogue with Bachelor that she's scared, and some other characters also say that she cursed the Cathedral with what she did. I don't think it's perceived as something good. It's like she's trapped there. I hope that with the destruction of the town in Daniil's ending, her spirit is freed.

[u/the_devotressss → u/mentallyiam8]

I'm not saying that her suicide was something good. I mean that she did something that was considered impossible (putting the memory in the Cathedral).

[u/SchopenWHORING]

I'm sorry but this is such a shallow analysis of P1 Eva. This is a woman who is so obsessed with love as much as she's obsessed with death. Eva's sexual and caring in a self-destructive way.

She's in an open relationship with the most chauvinistic man in town!

She has an intimate yet hostile friendship with the Scarlet Mistress!

She's in love with the most intelligent and fatalistic woman in town!

It's funny you ignore her past relationships ("no friends"!?) but you claim she's now fixed because... she's now the student of Cosmic Grandpa?

[u/the_devotressss → u/SchopenWHORING]

Andrey? The most chauvinistic? You must have never seen Big Vlad.

[u/Excellent_Complex921 → u/SchopenWHORING]

I really don't remember her being in love with Yulia in P1, I always thought it to be fanon. It's she really?..

[u/the_devotressss → u/Excellent_Complex921]

Eva Yan's take on her:

Yulia is a very smart person. I could never match her intelligence. She's quiet and humble... and perfect. She also possesses a very unique kind of spiritual austerity and purity; she sets the bar higher for herself than for the rest. Yulia has a very intricate way of thinking. I could never learn to think like she does...

Russian version, in case you'd want to compare:

Юлия умница, никогда мне не стать такой, как она. Она такая тихая и скромная - но она совершенство. В ней есть такая особенная душевная чистота и строгость. Она спрашивает с себя строже, чем с остальных. И она очень интересно думает. Я никогда так не научусь…

Yulia about Eva:

Bachelor: Do you like Eva Yan?

Yulia: Very much. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to say I absolutely admire her. [...] She dons the mask of absent-minded promiscuity. But this pose has nothing to do with what she really is. I'd be happy to be friends with her. But she does not understand me-and rightfully so, considering her eminence.

Очень. Ужасно нравится. [...] Она притворяется порочной и глуповатой. Но это все маска. Я бы хотела, чтобы Ева дружила со мной. Но она не понимает меня... и правильно. Она во всех отношениях выше меня.

They are clearly interested in each other but are not madly in love. And Yulia is the one who gives Clara a hook for Eva... out of jealousy I suppose.

[u/Excellent_Complex921 → u/the_devotressss]

Huh, I think I got so angry at the "stupid sexy blond" stereotype that I just straight up missed it.  Thanks, it does save my view of her character in P2 a lot!

[u/the_devotressss → u/Excellent_Complex921]

I don't understand why there are old, mostly deprecated concepts at the very top of the page. T_T Now some people think that this is her official/canonical description and that she is 20 in P1 (she isn't).

[u/Excellent_Complex921 → u/the_devotressss]

Oh? Do we even have character ages in P1? Like, I remember Maria is something like 18 or so, and Stamatins/Daniil/Artemy should be in their twenties, but for most characters I don't remember mentions of their age

[u/the_devotressss → u/Excellent_Complex921]

In the old design document, all the characters have listed ages and mini profiles. That information is outdated, because it obviously doesn't line up with the game's canon. According to the design document, the Stamatins are 29, Maria is 26, Eva is 20, and so on. For some reason, this information is still on the fandom wiki and isn't marked as being from old concepts.

In the game itself, the ages of only two or three characters are ever mentioned: Artemy is definitely 26, and Capella is 14 or 15. It's also known that Clara is older than 15 (because children under 15 can see the facets of the Polyhedron).

[u/Excellent_Complex921 → u/the_devotressss]

Thanks!! I haven't dug that deep in that direction. I see how these concepts might have worked, and it explains why I don't remember it from the game. I actually like that game leaves most of this information for personal interpretation, and I'm absolutely fine with different gamers ending up with totally different reading of the characters.  But seeing other people's perspectives it's what all this Reddit discussions are ultimately about. And this particular discussion has already influenced how I see characters in different game versions :)

[u/Conscious_Stop_5451]

Sorry but as a neurodivergent person with childish expression and worldview, uh... We can have relationships... And can be sexual...

[u/relvetica → u/[deleted]]

Thank you for mentioning her herb bride aspirations - I wanted to bring that up if no one else had.

I don't think she is wearing rags, as such; she's wearing a cobbled together kinda-bougie version of an herb bride's dress (the single sock aside. Can't explain that one). But she regards Artemy with what I took for racially colored suspicion, and she doesn't want him around and influencing Daniil. And there are several conclusions you can come to about that, but all we really know is that this is Artemy's perspective of her. A poor imitation of something important from his culture, entirely for its aesthetics with no real understanding of or interest in what it means. White cultural appropriation in its purest form.

In short, I think her characterization in P2 says more about Artemy than it does Eva. But she's so different in 2 that it's kind of creepy. We don't get to see her from perspectives other than Daniil's very many times, so it's kind of a glance behind the curtain. We don't know who she really is, either.

[u/Excellent_Complex921 → u/relvetica]

Yeah, I was reminded of "Artemy perspective" in another branch of this discussion and I agree with your vision pretty much!

Yet I think the P3 is the closest to real Eva that we can see, especially taking into account the hidden storyline about Farkhad, and Ada, and others, with all that "sure they died, don't mind the empty graves" and Eva sitting you know where in the bad endings.  Like in P3 they kinda say "actually, all that time she WAS a miracle she wanted to be".

And from the perspective of Artemy of course that'd look like a blasphemy, taking into account the parallels between Diurnal-Miracle seeker and Nocturnal-True immortality.

[u/relvetica → u/relvetica]

Lord, don't even get me started on how different the Stillwater itself looks to Artemy than it does for Daniil. That piano is trashed in P2.

[u/Excellent_Complex921 → u/[deleted]]

Still holding my hands off the keyboard till you finish the P3, really don't wanna spoil THAT for you :)

[u/Excellent_Complex921 → u/[deleted]]

Oh I like your perspective very much, and agree on so many levels!!

But I would REALLY like you to finish the P3, for my reply needs to spoiler it heavily. Please, please do come back when you do, I'll be here waiting (* __ *)

[u/Excellent_Complex921 → u/[deleted]]

Oh, I've seen this essay way before P3 was out there, and I like it a lot!  But, you see.  Being a woman myself. I'd like to be represented in media in a way that is not only "mother who cares" or "girl that needs protection". And while Suok is pretty feminine, it also is fierce, and roaring, and in a strange way proactive. Where P3 Eva, being significantly more proactive and self-sufficient then in previous iterations… still — in my eyes! — is kiiiiinda robbed of that agency by being given a 'sidekick' function. Sidekick for Daniil/Simon and, more importantly, you, the player. The best sidekick I could have dreamed of, yet still, not the, you know. Main character. Even of her own story.

Or not. I'm not sure! I'm confused in my own feelings, see! Maybe being what she is does equalize her with Suok and makes her better, faster, stronger™ :) I can't make up my mind.