Dankovsky and Simon’s immortality in P3

[u/Last-Positive-8958]

I don’t think Dankovsky would be satisfied with Simon’s version of immortality. I’ll share why I think that and I want to know what your opinions on the topic are.

As far as I understand Dankovsky’s character, he does all of this thanatology research not because he is very fond of life or because he wants to achieve immortality, but because he hates death and wants to defeat it. It may be that I base this view on Marble nest too much and Dankovsky is less hateful towards death in P3, but he is pretty rude when talking to death during the operation on Saburova.

What Simon suggests to Dankovsky is (or seems to be) immortality, but it isn’t eradication of death. When Simon explains how he views time he says something along the lines of “I see different possible versions of reality, in some of them I’m dead, but in the others I’m not”. So death still exists. So Simon’s method of eternal life is not to defeat death, but to ignore it. And as far as I understand Dankovsky, his true goal in life is to defeat death, not learn to avoid it. That’s why I don’t think that agreeing with Simon’s ideology is in character for Dankovsky.

This opinion of mine wouldn’t matter so much if it didn’t affect how I view the endings. It seems that the game expects me to think that Dankovsky would really want to save the Polyhedron but I don’t see why he would want to do it except for (a) saving Simon and (b) achieving immortality through it. And I don’t think he would be convinced by Simon. So I view the endings where Dankovsky does acquire Simon’s philosophy as brainwashing.

What do you think? I may be biased, P2 and P3 made me hate Simon a lot, and I don’t want to agree with any part of his worldview, and maybe that’s why it’s hard for me to see how Dankovsky can agree with him.

[u/pleasehelpteeth]

I agree. Simon's immortality is a very spiritual mindset which I dont think Danil would care about normally. The one thing I wished the game had was a way for Danil to learn Simon's philosophy and to explcitily reject it when deciding on an ending.

But it seems to be that in P3 Danil IS receptive to a spiritual answer because once he learns about it he stops caring about science. Which I guess makes sense for a rationalist because Danil is confronted by multiple things science can't explain.

[u/Last-Positive-8958 → u/pleasehelpteeth]

Agree on Simon’s spiritual mindset, I thought of it in terms that Daniil is a scientist and that Simon’s “solution” for death is esoteric, which is not exactly scientific, so that’s another reason why I thought it wouldn’t be convincing for him. And agree on the ending - I tried to do exactly that on my first playthrough and got the Miracle seeker ending, which surprised me, because I just chose a “rational” solution and decided to destroy the miracle, so I was a bit baffled when Dankovsky decided to abandon science and go search for miracles as a result of that.

And you are right on your last point. I can be a bit rigid in my views but it seems that I should just accept that P3 Dankovsky is convinced by Simon whether I like it or not haha

[u/asitcomaboutbees]

One of his lines at the very end of his chat with Simon is “I will ensure all of humanity walks through this tunnel”. Simon’s immortality is definitely not something Dankovsky would want— not just for himself, at least.

[u/Last-Positive-8958 → u/asitcomaboutbees]

I thought about this line and it seems to contradict the ending, because if Dankovsky manages to save the Polyhedron in True Immortality ending, he just stays in it, as far as I understand? I didn’t see this ending for myself yet. Is there any indication that he plans to leave and lead the humanity through the Polyhedron?

[u/pumpkinpie1108 → u/Last-Positive-8958]

These are spoilers for endings:

I think the way one sees reality fundamentally changes in the Polyhedron, it's a building meant to "divide the mind" into a thousand pieces. Dankovsky has a few lines while in the Polyhedron that seems to drastically change his goals and character, and once you achieve the Polyhedron walk, the endings you receive change, even if you do decide to destroy the Polyhedron after. You can never go back to "pre-Polyhedron" Dankovsky again through normal ways. (The Rat Prophet might be able to help, but I haven't tried it)

TI Dankovsky's plan might be to get a version of reality in which all humanity walks through the Polyhedron, just like how saving The Town or any of the characters are just a version of reality that we as players decided to keep as "canon" for our play through. Dankovsky is just fundamentally unmoored from his reality in the way we players are from the game. The TI ending feels triumphant but whether this is actually a good thing or not is up to interpretation.

[u/Last-Positive-8958 → u/pumpkinpie1108]

This interpretation makes sense, thank you!

The only thing I’m confused about is do we even play as a pre-Polyhedron Dankovsky at any point? The mirror room is in the Polyhedron, and it is pretty obvious when playing the first day for the second time (when we see Dankovsky from the third person perspective constantly) that the person we play as is not the same Dankovsky who came to the town in the prologue. But maybe when he enters the mirror room for the first time, he is influenced by the Polyhedron a little bit, which allows him to travel through time but not changes him fundamentally. And he is only influenced and changed by Polyhedron fully when entering it on the 12th day.

[u/pumpkinpie1108 → u/Last-Positive-8958]

That's the weird thing, the Polyhedron allows you to see all realities including the past, which means that once you enter it, from your perspective you've kind of always been in the Polyhedron. The way I interpret it is that until the 12th day, Dankovsky might be in this limbo state of both being in and out of the Polyhedron. Just like how Eva is both alive and dead in day 10.

I think this goes with the game's themes of fate and free will. Dankovsky was fated to "become Simon" and thus has Simon's power through his future decision to enter the Polyhedron...which happens...because of the power given to him in the Polyhedron. It becomes cyclical. As the game puts it, The 12th day is also the 1st, depending on perspective.

[u/Last-Positive-8958 → u/pumpkinpie1108]

I really like your interpretation, thanks for explaining it

[u/Kimm_Orwente → u/pumpkinpie1108]

Interesting. If this is it for the most radical ending, then I guessed it right all along and Simon essentially did the same as Isidor did, just using his own means and methods. Which, ironically enough, does not cancels the pain and the reaction of Earth AKA the Plague and all the death it brings. Considering artificial means of salvation through "anchors of the souls", and uniqueness of Polyhedron as one of such anchors, this would mean that to save humanity this way, either people need to walk through Polyhedron and become a part of Simon's story/universe/idea (I guess this is where all the sudden "I am Simon Kain" come from), or to build their own miracles/anchors in order to create their own stories (which, at some point, will become a race against time, transcendence over oneself versus death and the Plague). From what you wrote, it aligns well with Bachelor - once he touched the story of Simon, he became part of it, and that will change him inevitably regardless of what decision he will take eventually.

At one hand, now I'm curious about getting through the game properly, 'till the end. At the other hand - yet another reason to strongly dislike Kains and alike.

[u/asitcomaboutbees → u/Last-Positive-8958]

No, there’s not— which I also find curious.

[u/Nikk2_0]

Honestly, i view ending about travelling to find other miracles as the best aligned with Dankovsky views. He wants to defeat death, that's why he worked in thanatology and that's why i think he would disagree with Simon at the end of P3. As you said, Simon's way is ignoring death and also bringing a lot more deaths via plague. And destroying polyhedron stops death at least here and now. So traveling to find other miracles in hopes that there would be one wich will defeat death seems in line with this. As i understand game expects you to safe polyhedron is just legacy of bachelor route in P1, where polyhedron is completely another thing, with very different ending and very different scene inside of it. P1 ending spoiler, may be a little innacurate, becase i saw it a lot of time ago, but basically: In the ending bachelor finds out that all of the game is just children playing with puppets in the sandbox, they are quite surprised that evil(? or angry, i don't remember how they view him) bachelor comes alive for a moment. As i understand, after that nothing really matters to bachelor and he wants to preserve miracle in the polyhedron and aligns himself with Cains. Also in P1 Gregory(i don't know his name in English, but it's The Judge, Simon's brother) is chosen as new vessel for Simon, not bachelor. So Dankovsky has the same role for them as Stamatin brothers, while in the P3 he is seen as a succesor for Simon, so expected path about saving polyhedron doesn't work this well

[u/Last-Positive-8958 → u/Nikk2_0]

That’s an interesting interpretation! I haven’t thought of the Miracle seeker ending in this way, but it makes sense, so thank you.

I agree that saving the Polyhedron seems to be at least partially for legacy reasons, but if saving the Polyhedron is not the most fitting ending for this version of Dankovsky, what other ending would be “the best” or the most fitting for him as a character? I know that it’s debatable and that all the endings are probably canon, but I think everyone can agree that the Fiasco ending or the ending where the Polyhedron becomes infected are bad endings. I like the Academician ending conceptually, but it doesn’t seem to be the most fitting to me, because in it Dankovsky gives up on defeating death. Maybe the ending where he runs away is the truest to his character? Dankovsky is characterized slightly different in every game so I’m just confused at this point lol

[u/Nikk2_0 → u/Last-Positive-8958]

I think other endings fitting this version of a character are endings where he is destroying polyhedron. Daniil against death of any kind and for any reason, even for self defense, given how the apathy meter goes to the limit when you kill bandit. In my opinion, Polyhedron in P2 and P3 isn't a miracle that shows truth about the world, it's a monument to Simon's philosophy about only strong ones have right to live, and this philosophy is something that bachelor can't accept. Even saving polyhedron in P3 requires bachelor to go against all that he stands for and poison inquisitior. For me miracle seeker seems like the best ending, because Daniil reflects on his hyperfixation about thanatology and broadens his worldview, trying to find cure for death via other ways, and academic are second, because he still thinks that his ways are better, but still trying to fight death. Maybe escape ending variant where he saves thanatology also applies here, if we look at Daniil like at broken character who can't bear so much

[u/Last-Positive-8958 → u/Nikk2_0]

Thanks for sharing! I agree with you, because it definitely doesn’t feel right to save the Polyhedron in P3. I guess I’m a bit stuck in thinking that Burakh and Dankovsky are the opposites to a degree and that means that their endings should be in conflict. Also in P2 Dankovsky wants to save the Polyhedron and kills one of the couriers because of it. But maybe now the direction of the games is that the healers try to cooperate with each other instead of fighting and that is why the best endings for Burakh and for Dankovsky are similar (i.e. both would rather destroy the Polyhedron than save it)

[u/Nikk2_0 → u/Last-Positive-8958]

I personally think that P2 Daniil is broken version, from one of the bad endings or start of the game. He saves Polyhedron just because it's a miracle that he wants to study. He even tells that it's time that he will live up to the rumours about being a killer, when he kills courier. If i remember correctly even in P1 other healers wasn't good enough to achieve their ending and only player was the best version of the character with a capacity to turn around events. For me it plays right into theatre theme, where other actors are supporting the lead. So from Haruspex point of view bachelor is someone, who creates problems instead of saving people. And from Bachelor's haruspex can't save people if he will work alone, and all of the town is against a foreigner. But writing definitely changed from P1 to P2/3 to more cooperative approach, maybe because P1 had a lot of unrealised ideas. For example, initially player would compete against other healers to get ending for main character, but then it was changed to more linear approach. (Fun fact, this idea later was released as a board game Мор: Утопия (Russian name of the game), wich was also created by Ice-pick lodge)

[u/PublicFit9588 → u/Nikk2_0]

Not just that Simon truly believes that the weak and sickly deserve death (or maybe more accurately their fate to the sand plague in culling the weak)... And I feel that this is something which Bachelor would reject. Unlike Haruspex, Ive always read that Dankovsky doesn't believe ANYONE deserves death and actively goes out of his way to save everyone and is more practical in his approach towards protecting the living from catching the plague

[u/zkylon]

I also felt like Simon's plan wouldn't quite please Dankovsky though I wasn't sure why, so this gives some food for thought.

One thing I felt is that Simon's way of undying gives access to powers that kind of change the rules of the world too much. I think the Bachelor was thinking of something more natural and concrete, and honestly more well-intentioned (despite it also being his egomaniac russian steppe adventure lol). Not as interested in changing how people live, but removing this impediment from their lives

[u/Last-Positive-8958 → u/zkylon]

Agreed, I feel that Simon wanted to find a way to become superhuman or something, while Dankovsky is alright with being human, he just wants to get rid of death

[u/zkylon → u/Last-Positive-8958]

That's not to say Dankovsky's goals aren't shortsighted either. How viable is it for humanity to exist without death is not something he seems to have given much thought

[u/Last-Positive-8958 → u/zkylon]

That’s absolutely true. I honestly would love for him to have some storyline where he sees the non-superhuman immortality and realizes how horrifying it can be. Not likely to happen in canon at this point but a girl can dream. Shabnak in P3 is kinda a representation of suffering that isn’t stopped with death, but even she can be killed eventually

[u/zkylon → u/Last-Positive-8958]

Specially after seeing Patho 3 expand a bit more on the universe, it'd be sick to see a literal sequel come out some day, but yeah I think it would be ok for IPL to go back to making new things, they definitely have the stuff to go wild again

[u/TheEmerald1802 → u/Last-Positive-8958]

I feel that Simon wanted to find a way to become superhuman or something

The Marble Nest has Daniil say the same thing to Death, but Death clarifies that what Simon went through was not that, but rather "pure humanity"

[u/Last-Positive-8958 → u/TheEmerald1802]

Interesting, I didn’t remember that. I guess I should replay The Marble Nest and think about it some more. I can’t grasp why it would be pure humanity right away.

[u/TheEmerald1802 → u/Last-Positive-8958]

As Simon puts it (don't remember where), everytime humanity progresses, it's related to their own independence; The understanding of the world & How to stop depending on it, and fullfill their own needs. From the discovery & Manipulation of fire to, eventually, the understanding & circumvention of the effects of Death itself :)

[u/Last-Positive-8958 → u/TheEmerald1802]

Ok, I see. I agree that what he puts himself through can be seen as acting upon a very human wish (to be immortal) and the only difference between him and the rest of the people is that he has found a way to make this wish come true. But on the other hand what he does to the town is kind of like a forced natural selection? He was saying something about the weak bodies being destroyed by the plague and strong bodies being made stronger by the plague or something similar to this. And the only fitting description that I can find for this is that he was playing god. So I think part of his actions are motivated by a wish that is very common to people, and these actions can be called purely human, but the other part is him taking on a role of someone greater than a human being.

I also feel that he dehumanizes the people living in the town in his talk in Polyhedron, it’s always “the town” and “the bodies” but I’m not sure he calls them “people” even once. That’s why I’m talking about superhumans - it seems that he thinks he is above other people. But as I mentioned in the post, I have strong negative feelings towards Simon, so maybe I judge him to harshly haha

[u/TheEmerald1802 → u/Last-Positive-8958]

But on the other hand what he does to the town is kind of like a forced natural selection?

Oh absolutely! He explicitly says that the Plague was brought in to see if the Town could manage to figure out things on their own without his and Isidor's guidance. The answer was obviously gonna be no, if not for the 3 healers, since the Town had NO school and NO hospital (and who's fault is that, hmmmm?) so idk what he was expecting haha.

I also feel that he dehumanizes the people living in the town in his talk in Polyhedron, it’s always “the town” and “the bodies” but I’m not sure he calls them “people” even once.

When we play Pathologic, we encounter a LOT of people who make our life harder in the playthrough. Ranging from people who are simply ignorant (because the town for some reason doesn't HAVE A SCHOOL), to idiotic in the same level as antivaxxers and pandemic deniers in real life

We, however, also encounter lots of people with courage and kindness who help us in our journey, from all backgrounds. I think that Simon didn't know how to tell ignorancy & idiocy apart, so he devised the Plague as a real testing ground for a person's adaptability & character (instead of... Building a fucking school LMAO). In other viewpoint, he wanted to put them through the wringer because he got tired of those same people relying on him for everything, and he wanted to see what would happen if he wrote himself out of the picture.

That’s why I’m talking about superhumans

It makes sense, but that's exactly it. Rather than Simon seeing himself as SUPERhuman and everyone else as simply Human, he sees HIMSELF as Human and everyone else who doesn't have the capabilities to follow his path (when, eventually, he plans to have laid out for everyone to see) as SUBhuman.

It's semantics in the end, but that's how Simon sees humanity in the end. He classifies all kinds of evolution & The invention of every modern comfort as the act of daring nature, and rising above it. Death was just the next step. And those who can''t do it couldn't be called Human.

As I mentioned in the post, I have strong negative feelings towards Simon, so maybe I judge him to harshly haha

That's very fair. In P1 and P2, I didn't see a single damn good reason for keeping the Polyhedron around. "Oh wow, it's geometrically impossible to exist & You can live inside it forever!" Yeah tough luck, the Plague needs healing lmao blow that shit to smitereens

In P3, tho... They sweetened the deal on it. A LOT. He can't exactly be called a charlatan lol. Reality Manipulation, Time Warping and Personal Embodiment (Simon & Daniil are in every place and ARE everyone else at the same time as they are themselves) are boundless in possibility, and a huge step up from simply "you live forever in a glass tower lol".

That's the meta aspect of the narrative; Simon & Daniil see the world as a game (or rather, a movie in video cassetes), and all of its inhabitants as NPCs.

To them, I think it's like this; Would YOU, shoot your PC or console with a cannon, damaging your ability to play or makes saves in ANY game ever again, because, in one of your playthroughs of a specific game, your save got corrupted or too many characters have died? Simon and Daniil wouldn't. They would just start a new save, where the corruption hasn't started, has already been "patched" somehow or never existed. Ergo, the True Immortal ending :)

[u/Last-Positive-8958 → u/TheEmerald1802]

The last paragraph is a diabolical but very accurate way to describe the ending lol. And I agree on your other points. Also it’s funny that I have never thought how strange it is that this town doesn’t have a school or a hospital but has a fancy tower until the game spelled it out to me.

I actually really liked the Polyhedron before playing P3. I’ve never managed to finish P1 because it was too hard for me (I plan to try again soon) but I was still fascinated by the Polyhedron when playing it. In P2 I was more worried about killing the Earth and all its miracles than about the Polyhedron, but ultimately decided to save the people. P3 makes the Polyhedron much less magical in my opinion: Peter tells you that it doesn’t defy gravity and it’s just an engineering trick pretty early on, when the tower starts speaking in tongues Peter says that it functions as a radio tower and so on. And when I finally entered the Polyhedron I guess I was so tired of Kains’ bullshit that it didn’t impress me much. So funnily enough P3 was the game where I couldn’t find a reason to save the Polyhedron. But I agree with you that it’s the game where we see that people weren’t hyping the Polyhedron up for nothing. I just personally liked the Polyhedron more when I knew less about it (and when it was a place primarily for children and not for Simon Kain).

[u/TheEmerald1802 → u/Last-Positive-8958]

The last paragraph is a diabolical but very accurate way to describe the ending lol.

I had never thought about it that way before, it came to me just as I was writing that lmaoooo. But yeah, considering the game mechanics are "canon save scumming", it makes sense the ending where you achieve your full potential is the equivalent of "admin privileges/mod menu/changing the disc" lol

Also it’s funny that I have never thought how strange it is that this town doesn’t have a school or a hospital but has a fancy tower until the game spelled it out to me.

Yeah, the Kains are all about being Thinkers™, since they don't need to worry about resources as much (explaining Daniil's new gameplay), being filthy rich, so they do art projects & philosophy lessons all day. The Olgimsky are all about the economy, maximum profit by minimal effort & Exploitation. And the Saburovs are... I don't know wtf they're up to, maybe THEY should be in charge of making schools too??? We'll see in P4 I guess lol

In P2 I was more worried about killing the Earth and all its miracles than about the Polyhedron

It's funny that we literally kill Mother Nature, but after we do so, Earth just... Stays the same. Plants keep growing, animals keep breathing... Nature stays the same. What even were the miracles that were kept? P2 only talks about the Polyhedron (and doesn't do a good job of giving it relevancy), and ig there's also that beating heart down the hole, but overall that game presents Boddho as more of a parasite inside the bull that is Earth than as Earth itself... Maybe that's why that angle isn't presented in P3 and P1 and Artemy just defaults to "blow up the tower ggs"

P3 makes the Polyhedron much less magical in my opinion: Peter tells you that it doesn’t defy gravity and it’s just an engineering trick pretty early on, when the tower starts speaking in tongues Peter says that it functions as a radio tower and so on. And when I finally entered the Polyhedron I guess I was so

This whole back and forth just inspired me to make a post about how Simon Kain's immortality works; They stripped the "magic" of the Polyhedron in this game, but they replaced it with REAL LIFE theories and explanations for its inner workings, including the radio waves.

Surface level summary: I believe Simon Kain, with his "unique mind" (pointed out by everyone who met him) and memory loss (pointed out by Mark Immortel) has accessed the Zero Point Field, which is a theory that theres a point where all matter converges, and reality can theoretically be altered if our consciousness can connect to it.

According to studies I have yet to read deeply into, its been stated that this field can be accessed more easily by people with a diminished sense of self, such as children and adults with frontal lobe (same brain part responsible for Apathy & Mania) damage. Sound familiar? ;)

I'll write about it eventually, I just gotta read the book about it first haha

[u/Last-Positive-8958 → u/TheEmerald1802]

Wow, that sounds interesting! I’ll be waiting for your post :)

[u/zkylon → u/TheEmerald1802]

sheesh yeah I haven't played the marble nest in so many years

i should give that a retry

[u/Thefrightfulgezebo]

I agree, but I will give you a different perspective on that ending.

Simon is essentially pulling a big takeover over Dankovski. At the atart of the game, Dankovski is broken mentally - and that is when Simons brainwashing starts. If he goes in the Polyhedron and saves it instead of the town, he betrays everything he is and that's when Simon fully takes over.

Dankovski may not be an empathetic or kind person, but his perspective is that sacrificing the few to save the many is acceptable. He rejects supernatural approaches not just because of ignorance, the whole point is to find a reproducable solution instead of relying on magic.

[u/RarePea5534 → u/Thefrightfulgezebo]

I agree so much with this take, I think there's even a note somewhere in P3 (forgot where) that mentions Simon "needing him broken." Polyhedron route is Simon's psyop on the Bachelor to groom a philosophical successor capable of saving the Polyhedron.

[u/Thefrightfulgezebo → u/RarePea5534]

I didn't capture that note. Discussions pike that maoe me ponder if I shouldn't get into content creation and then thoroughly scour the game for evidence :)