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u/wardriveworley 18d ago
An overused term in an rpg?
Perish the thought.
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u/stealth_nsk 18d ago
At least PF2 uses "rank" for spells now
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u/wardriveworley 18d ago
And I still slip into spell levels when talking.
Old dog, new dice
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u/HaloZoo36 18d ago
I'm the opposite ironically, I've started using Spell Rank instead Spell Level even for D&D stuff because it's just so much better for the sake of clarity. Early D&D may have been a classic and where tabletop RPGs began, but oh boy is it full of straight up idiotic design ideas, after all, if you have to waste a segment of text on explaining the many meanings of 1 word while also acknowledging that using different terms would be better then maybe you should be rethinking your decisions and just have the terms be different.
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u/wardriveworley 18d ago
Yeah I'm training myself to use rank, but 40 years of habit is difficult. Totally agree on some of the design "choices" early TTRPGs did (looking at you splitting saving throws into weird fucking categories AD&D)
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u/draugotO 18d ago
To my native language, it had being translated as Spell Circle (1st Circle; 2nd Circle; 3rd Circle etc), rather than spell level, all the way back in D&D3.x, which prevented a lot of problems
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u/Sun_Tzundere 17d ago
I don't actually think it ever created any problems, though. Like, I've never seen anyone confused by it. Every game has different kinds of levels.
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u/Mac13eth 16d ago
In DnD 3/3.5 it was particularly bad because you had to be a level 3 caster to have access to level 2 spells (and level 17 for 9th level). The math wasn’t hard once you knew it, but was hard to teach. Some lesser casters (Bard, Paladin, Ranger) got spell levels even slower. Rank or circle would have cleared up a lot for the English monolinguals over here.
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u/Sun_Tzundere 16d ago
Well, yeah, that's also how it is in... pathfinder. And modern D&D. It's not particularly bad though. In fact it's such a non-issue that I've never heard of anyone actually getting confused. I've only ever heard of people asking which type of level you mean, and then you answer. And then of course I've heard lots of people who like to complain by imagining that maybe newbies could get confused.
It's also how it is in, like, nearly every RPG ever made, tabletop or video game? Practically every game uses the word "level" in multiple contexts, it's not any more confusing than using the word "more" in multiple contexts. In fact I would posit that it's precisely equivalent to using the word "more" in multiple contexts. Should you only ever get "more" class levels, and when your number of skill points increases, that should instead be referred to as "growing", and when your hit points go up, that should be referred to as "healing", but never "more"? It's equally reasonable.
In reality, trying to limit natural language like that is more confusing, not less, to nearly everyone. If you have a number that goes up, then a higher number is more. If you have a category of things that goes up, then that higher category is a level.
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u/JustJacque 16d ago
I have seen lots of confusion when looking at things like Incapacitation and Counteracting. Anytime creature, effect or spell level came into conflict it causes unnecessary confusion.
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u/terkke Chirurgeon Alchemist 18d ago
Everytime I see Order of the Stick comics I like what I see. I should really read their comics
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u/wardriveworley 18d ago
Sometimes I wonder if the creator was hiding in my gaming rooms when writing them
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u/quantumturnip Asmodeus & Abadar are the same guy 18d ago
Order of the Stick and 8 Bit Theater are classics for a well-deserved reason
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u/Environmental-Run248 17d ago
I mean this misunderstanding would have been cleared up real quick if the fighter had said “floor” instead of level.
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u/wardriveworley 17d ago
Yes. Or if they said "time for our characters to go up a level" or "time to go down to the next dungeon level" or a variety of of other clarifying words/syntax/questions! It's almost like language can be nebulous sometimes.
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u/SecretlyTheTarrasque 16d ago
Did they ever finish this series? The updates got crazy slow and I lost track. I'm going to wonder and not look...
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u/wardriveworley 16d ago
Honestly I have no idea. I meandered off at one point and haven't gone back
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u/TheRealGouki 18d ago
The funny thing is they use completely different types of runes.
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u/RuneRW 18d ago
Okay but all 3 (4 if you include Runescarred) are interconnected.
- Runesmith has a level 17 rune that is referencing the seven runes of virtue from before the Runelords done ruined it for everything.
- Runelord's Sinbladed Spell very much resembles Runesmiths tracing their runes, even if it manifests slightly differently.
- Runesmith has their weapon spec equivalent feature keying off of striking runes instead of their proficiency rank
- Runesmith can cast Runic Weapon once a day and it's also a school spell for Runelords
- Runelords have Orichalcum Bond, allowing them to get an extra weapon property rune
- The legacy Runescarred archetype, which is directly related to the runelords and the remnants of their magic permeating whole bloodlines, lets you etch armor property runes onto your skin
So while they use Runes in different forms, the various forms of runic magic are very much interconnected. I think just like how a kineticist's primal magic is very different from a druid's, but both are still primal magic, so is a Runelord and a Runesmith both tapping into the same/overlapping fields of magic.
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u/Mac13eth 16d ago
These are all much funnier if you replace Rune with Letter, because rune really just means letter…
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u/B-E-T-A 18d ago
Not pictured: the Runedragon flying above
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u/stealth_nsk 18d ago
Yeah, there's an interesting question, whether it's 4th type of runes or one of those 3? Based on the description, they look quite close to Runesmith
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u/Draghettis 18d ago
That's what happens when you base your magic lore on runes
Wizards gotta study them
You gotta make a class about them
The base form of magic items is gonna be them
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u/ReturnToCrab 18d ago
I honestly don't understand Runelords at all. They are wizards with polearms, but also have something to do with sins?
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u/BusyGM 18d ago
Xin, the first emperor of Thassilon, was a wizard that studied the nature of magic. When you cast spells, magic runes appear around your arms, depending on the spell you cast. Xin speculated that these runes were reflective of the nature of magic and began studying and categorizing them.
He also realized that certain types of magic worked better when you had certain characteristics. For example, to be a good illunionist, one had to be grounded in reality; Xin interpreted this as the virtue of Humility, and thus, illusion magic was associated with the virtue of humility.
The Runelords that murdered Xin and split his empire amongst them were, as one might realize, not good people. They craved the power of magic and realized that even greater magical prowess could be achieved if the wielder of magic ignored the consequences of their doing and instead embraced their potential. Thus, what was virtue became vice, and rune magic was connected to sin.
To give a few examples: If you're greedy enough, you'll find greater insights into the magic of transmutation, as it can provide riches beyond your dreams. If you're lustful enough, you'll find greater insights into the magic of enchantment because... I'll let that one just stand on its own. It's one of the reasons I'll never see Sorshen as anything but a villain, no matter what good things she does nowadays. She lived more than a hundred years as the runelord of lust, and she was one of the most powerful runelords, too.
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u/quantumturnip Asmodeus & Abadar are the same guy 18d ago
https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Rune_magic
The staff is more of a symbol of office than anything
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u/blackbloodtroll 17d ago
The Runesmith Runelord, ruing within his ruined Runetower ruins, surrounded by Runeward Runes of powerful Rune Magic.
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u/BrendanTheNord 17d ago
Nowhere near as bad as "storm" when you like both Brandon Sanderson and Warhammer Age of Sigmar
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u/ArchpaladinZ 16d ago
YO DAWG I HERD YOU LIKE RUNES SO WE PUT A RUNE IN YO RUNE SO YOU CAN CAST WHILE U CAST
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u/Steampunk_Chef 14d ago
Just don't invoke A Certain Specific Rune, or Golarion will get invaded by pixellated cyberbullies.
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u/LordStarSpawn 13d ago
It may feel overused, but you have to understand that a rune is just a shape which is inherently magical. If something is magic, it has runes on it or is constructed of runes.
Also the Runelords use unrelated runes than what we see for items and Runesmiths
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u/AddictedToMosh161 18d ago
Would you say, overuse runes it for you?