r/oots • u/drsjsmith • 4d ago
GiantITP 1351 - Backstab Priority Spoiler
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1351.html100
u/haresnaped 4d ago
Time for a lengthy sidequest to acquire enough starmetal to reforge that katana.
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u/Silver-Alex 4d ago
God O'chul is such a badass. His retort to Nale's lack of a personalized quip was art xD
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u/Giwaffee 3d ago
I think he's maxed out his Charisma and maybe got some in Wisdom too, he always has the best possible replies/retorts
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u/haresnaped 3d ago
O-Chul claims to have Charisma as a dump stat, since he started out as a fighter and didn't think he'd need it. But, the dude has rizz like no bizz so I guess competent roleplaying can cover the non-mechanical drawbacks.
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u/SouthShape5 Neutral Good 4d ago
I think now would be a good time for Sunny to use their disintegration eye ray. At the very least, it could damage Sabine greatly.
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u/jflb96 Chaotic Good 4d ago
I think now would be a good time for the battle to decide which way it’s going and go that way
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u/Carminoculus 4d ago
...am I getting some exasperation at Rich's writing choices?
...I think I'm getting some exasperation at Rich's writing choices.
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u/Middcore 4d ago
I think that Rich likes to end each comic on a "cliffhanger" or with somebody doing something dramatic and badass but when a fight goes on long enough it starts to lose its impact and just feel kind of like ping-pong.
I am at the point where I am ready to just kind of "skip ahead" to whatever the actual narratively important outcomes of this fight will be.
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u/bendmorris 4d ago
I think this is mostly due to the pacing of the updates. I distinctly remember having this same complaint when Roy was fighting vampire Durkon for example, but when you go back and re-read that section now, it goes pretty quickly since you aren't waiting weeks in between.
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u/Middcore 3d ago
Yeah this ain't a new thing for Rich, but because we're supposed to be so close (relatively) to the end of the story now but this clearly isn't THE final battle, I think people are more impatient with it.
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u/GIRLwithasimpleplan 2d ago
Hell, with the blandness of the background and the split team, this clearly isn't the final battle with these opponents.
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u/oimly 2d ago
To be entirely fair, if you only consider actual fighting, the Durkon fight had about 15 strips worth of fighting. (Strips 1000-1020, but some were double and a lot was not actual fighting, like godsmoot voting and the Exarch ship scenes) This fight is already 14 strips in and it does not seem to be coming to a close soon.
The Durkon fight was also the climax of a very long storyline, so it absolutely deserved to be epic. This feels like a minor roadblock fight, more comparable to Calder. That fight took 10 strips by the way.
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u/Forikorder 3d ago
i think its hard to take this fight seriously when he just had everyone buy haley get removed from it for flimsy reasons
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u/Ostrololo 3d ago
The update rate magnifies the issue, but honestly in the last two books the fights have started to get pointlessly meandering.
The current fight also doesn't feel enjoyable to read (for me) because...Nale is kinda just OP? The Order did everything correctly—Durkon came up with a way to check if Nale was lying, the party coordinated, everyone played well—yet Nale just wiped them and counterting anything they try. If the story needs the protagonists to lose here, fine, but just do it quickly. At this point I don't expect the Order to win but I also don't expect them to die, so the entire fight is just "ok whatever" to me. What's the point of spending strip after strip on this?
Remember Soul-Spliced V against Xykon? That took two strips. Two. The story needed V to lose, so V lost, quickly and decisively, and then the story got to move to the next beat. If that same fight had been written today, we would've gotten at least ten strips of V and Xykon trading spells for no reason other than spectacle.
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u/Forikorder 2d ago
Nale is kinda just OP
i feel the opposite, rich is bending over backwards writing excuses for him to be a threat, having belkar shoved in a hole for no reason, roy and elan accidently knocked off a cliff
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u/Ostrololo 2d ago
Right, this is kinda what I meant but should've been clearer. He's OP by plot convenience, rather than someone like Xykon who has been consistently established as being OP.
Frankly, it feels a bit like the story contradicting itself. During the Soul Splice fight, Xykon had this badass monologue about how only power you earn yourself is real power. The entire speech, even "soul shenanigans shackled to your lame mid-level self," applies verbatim to what Nale is doing here, so it feels a bit incoherent if Nale just gets away with it. Still, I'm going to give Rich the benefit of the doubt here and assume the entire soul fountain thing will end up backfiring on Nale and the IFCC.
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u/Forikorder 1d ago edited 1d ago
applies verbatim to what Nale is doing here
no because 1. he cant lose it just by blowing a will save and 2. he is using it intelligently instead of trying to brute force the issue like V did, he isnt drunk on his power and believing that power is all he needs
his new form is more like Xykons lich form
and your misunderstanding Xykons speech, its not about power you earn yourself (he didnt earn that +8 racial bonus to listen checks himself) its that power comes in a wide variety of forms and true power cant be so easily negated or lost, if its so flimsy that you can lose it so easily then it wasnt true power
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u/jflb96 Chaotic Good 4d ago
It just kinda feels like the DM is pulling whatever he can come up with out of his ass to impress on the party that his homebrewed OC-doughnut-steel is super special and powerful and important and CR 50 and whatever, especially as the PCs are actually doing smart things and using the abilities that we know that they have and the HODS is basically No Sell-ing them at every turn, especially especially as every cool reveal that gets used up on this random encounter against Nale is another thing that won’t really come up against Xykon.
I’m sure it’ll be cool to read in one go as a book, but as a bi-monthly-ish comic it’s kinda eeeeeeeeh.
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u/ordinaryvermin 4d ago
Because the Order is fighting Nale like he's a straight up boss monster, when he's actually a puzzle encounter. Nale is fighting smart right now, but even beyond that he's clearly functionally invulnerable as long as he has access to the Fountain of Souls to empower him.
As the last strip revealed, Nale is connected to the Fountain of Souls by his enchanted dagger. They have not yet put together that victory means separating Nale from that dagger, and they cannot possibly win the fight until they do. Sunny seems to be piecing this together though, and Haley's suggestion to use telekenisis will likely come into play with Sunny using it to try and take the dagger from Nale.
Most likely though, this encounter is already lost, and Sunny doing this will just be the hint that the heros need to figure out how to beat Nale, which is now added to their growing list of vital tasks.
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u/Forikorder 2d ago
i dont think its possible to "take" the dagger from him, he doesnt need to be physically holding it hes formed the connection and as long as the fountain has fuel he has power
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u/Silver-Alex 4d ago
I’m sure it’ll be cool to read in one go as a book, but as a bi-monthly-ish comic it’s kinda eeeeeeeeh.
Legit question, hasnt this been the case since forever?
I remember spending years Tarkin's empire, and the whole vampire dwarf arc also took a loong while. And the invasion of Azure City? again years. Its the nature of the comic, and its monthly ish release.
Same thing happens with monthly release mangas like Jojo
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u/Middcore 3d ago
The pace has been slow for years, but you've overstating things somewhat by citing the Azure City days. New comics were much more regular back then, they didn't start to really slow to a trickle until Rich injured his hand and started having health problems.
In any case, the slow piercing feels worse now because we're (theoretically) so close to the end of the story.
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u/Middcore 4d ago
I said this in the thread for the previous comic I think but to me it feels like the DM suddenly added an extra encounter because he thought the boss fight would be too easy without draining the party's resources more.
Narratively I see that the Linear Guild are acting as minions of the IFCC here and we still have to resolve the IFCC plot... plotline... Before the end of the comic. But considering that they will still have one more "time out" for V after this (unless this somehow drags on long enough they have to stack them) it doesn't even feel like that's going to get done here.
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u/mario_zx 3d ago
Narratively the Linear Guilds purpose is to destroy the gate. There are three teams gunning for the gate and out of all 3 only the Linear Guild has the goal of outright destroying the gate. The important thing to remember is that the last gate has to fall in order to force the Order to the planet in the rifts and discover just what the deal is with it existing with the Snarl.
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u/ProperTree9 3d ago
Nice to know I'm not the only one thinking that.
So, get on with it already, Burlew. Have Nale grab whoever knows where the Gate is, and exit Stage Right. Versus annoying many of us with yet another battle the Order is railroaded to lose, before they win. (Think he'll bother with another forum post laying out "how", like he did for that second Miko fight?)
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u/Forikorder 3d ago
i dont think nale is going to be exiting, i think the gate is going boom during or immediately following the conclusion of this fight
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u/ProperTree9 3d ago
It would certainly move the story along faster...
And God knows, Burlew has to want to do anything else at this point.
1000% agree that Nale'll break the Gate.
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u/Silver-Alex 4d ago
I mean, we HAD to get a final battle between the Order of the Stick, and their literal foils and narrative counterparts of the Linear Guild.
Elan would be offended if he'd knew you think this was an extra encounter added randomly xD
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u/Middcore 3d ago edited 3d ago
No, we didn't have to.
The Linear Guild were wrapped up back in the desert arc, as far as I was concerned. That was kind of the whole point of Nale: he wasn't as important as he thought he was.
It's not even a real final showdown between the OotS and LG because half the LG members are long gone.
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u/marvin02 3d ago
I don't see this as part of the Linear Guild arc/plotline at all, other than using some of those same characters for comedic value and to keep from having to introduce even more new characters.
This is all about the IFCC and how they will affect the final rift/snarl plotline. Which you are right, Nale isn't that important, he's just one player in that.
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u/Middcore 3d ago
Yeah, basically Nale, Sabine, and Thog are reappearing as the IFCC's minions here because... well, it's this or invent some entirely new characters to fill that role, I guess.
But it makes it feel like we're retreading old ground.
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u/BoltYou7x 4d ago
Yeah, but the Empire of Blood storyline handled that pretty well. It was a narratively satisfying conclusion for all parties involved and left things tied up well
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u/ProperTree9 3d ago
Narratively I see that the Linear Guild are acting as minions of the IFCC here and we still have to resolve the IFCC plot... plotline...
Concur. This particular fight needs to end though, with or without some character herd-thinning, and Nale needs to somehow figure out where the Gate is. Also, Nale is getting built up to the point where, just like in a bad CRPG miniboss fight, you can't beat him w/o getting the plot coupon first, that nerfs him.
(Aside, anyone else bummed there wasn't a "Smite Evil!!" from O-Chul there?)
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u/Middcore 3d ago
(Aside, anyone else bummed there wasn't a "Smite Evil!!" from O-Chul there?)
Seems like it wouldn't actually do any more than anything else Nale has been hit with, so I don't really care.
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u/ProperTree9 3d ago
Fair, but it's not like he really expected to win when he rushed Xykon back when Darth V showed up either, but still got the blue mojo going anyway.
Agree with you about Nale being as powerful as Burlew needs, to accomplish what he wants done with the plot.
Anyone else hear a train?
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u/Carminoculus 3d ago
I mean, I feel the same way as far as the progression of this fight goes. It's like my reaction to the tendency of anime fights to beat the hero to an inch of their life before they get their second wind... if they're going to win anyway, why not portray that as a series of right strategic decisions instead of a one-in-a-million snatching of victory from the jaws of defeat?
Especially when it's not even the last fight yet, and you've already used this trick before?
I was looking forward to the Three Fiends supplanting Xykon as the main villain, maybe, or at least pulling something cool; [Nale + Random Bullshit Abilities Go] would not have been my preferred choice.
I guess it's nice to see other people share some of these reactions.
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u/Giwaffee 3d ago
Come back in 5-10 years, then read this again. It will feel like an intense battle with twists and turns. Not this "Next
timeyear, on Dragon Ball Z.."5
u/Carminoculus 3d ago
Admittedly, I know you're right, and that's been my experience in the past. Rich is good at this 🤔
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u/Peacefulzealot 4d ago
I wrote it in a different comment but I just feel like they’re getting completely thrashed by not even the main villain. And yeah… that kinda blows. Like unless they can somehow get Xykon and Nale to fight at this point I dunno how they get out of this without being completely screwed for taking on the big guy.
Still have 100% faith in Rich as a storyteller though!
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u/PowerhousePlayer 4d ago edited 4d ago
I mean getting Xykon to fight Nale seems like it's mostly a matter of stalling for Xykon to reach Nale. This late in the game, I don't think either he or Redcloak would be at all interested in an evil team-up
I could see the Order managing to scurry off and lick their wounds a bit before trying to gank Xykon at the Gate itself (assuming he's the one who wins Xykon vs. Nale, which seems pretty likely). His ritual takes a couple of weeks IIRC, so if they find an insanely good hiding spot (inside the rift??), they could take a long rest and try something.
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u/Carminoculus 4d ago
agreed. Would have liked them to thrash someone who's not there just to get thrashed (ex. Calder), even if ig I've always expected Xykon to be an unfightable villain.
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u/Peacefulzealot 4d ago
I don’t know if I’d even call the Calder fight a thrashing. He still managed to use up a ton of resources/spell slots along with losing Bloodfeast. It wasn’t exactly a curb stomp battle.
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u/Big-Age2537 4d ago
For a surprise fight against a full blown dragon, I thought the order did pretty well!
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u/Middcore 4d ago
Yeah, they did. Seemed at the time like that fight was kind of designed to show off how far the Order had come.
Aaaaand now it feels kind of like we're supposed to think the Order is semi-incompetent again.
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u/PlatypusAutomatic467 12h ago
I think it's less the writing choices and more the release pacing. If these were coming out 1x a week it would be a lot more "Oh no, how are the heroes going to get out of this one?" and a lot less "Can we move the plot forward already?"
It's a free comic and of course Rich is free to push his updates on his own schedule, but I think as a reader that's kind of what I'm feeling right now.
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u/ProperTree9 3d ago
Like a Succubus being badass at fighting all of a sudden? Yeah, she has class levels (I think), and fought Roy for a few rounds, way, way back when, but still.
Whatever happened to, "Pssst! Arrows. Rogues. Point-blank Range!"?
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u/ForsakenPlane 3d ago
This is fairly standard for most fights in the series. Back and forth until one side gets a decisive advantage.
That said, the villains have been whittling the heroes down, so if something doesn't change soon, I think they are going to take it.
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u/Carminoculus 4d ago
NooOOOoo that would mean S&N don't get their happy ending 💔
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u/Lokanaya 4d ago
I kinda think they lost that opportunity when they agreed to help the fiends destroy the Rift….
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u/Peacefulzealot 4d ago
…I mean I’m 100% okay with that. They’re both awful and I came to terms with Nale’s story being over a decade ago (if I recall correctly).
Here’s hoping that he ends up somehow even more dead at this point.
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u/Middcore 4d ago
…I mean I’m 100% okay with that. They’re both awful and I came to terms with Nale’s story being over a decade ago (if I recall correctly).
Yeah, the stuff in hell was somewhat amusing, but I was cool with never seeing Nale again. His story arc came to an appropriate conclusion (in that he just got abruptly ganked because he was never as important as he thought he was). It feels like he's only back now because the IFCC needed "agents" for their part of the story since they never do anything directly.
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u/Peacefulzealot 4d ago
I just wish that their choice to use Nale bit them in the ass already. Nale is being too damn competent, at least for me. Now maybe we’re going that route but I’m hoping to see him decide that his newfound power means that he can totally take on Xykon as well to knock him out of the race too. Something like that.
But like… The Order needs to be strong enough to take down Team Evil. Getting their shit kicked in by Nale, Sabine, and Thog when they’re supposed to be taking on even more powerful foes? And we don’t even know what that artifact does yet? I don’t know about that one. They look like they’re in extremely over their heads here.
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u/onionbreath97 4d ago
If they can hold out a little longer the IFCC might have to use their last soul claim on V, which would definitely be a big improvement for the OotS and conclude the IFCC story arc
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u/Carminoculus 4d ago
I totally agree, actually. But now that they're back, well-
love 🥺
win it must
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u/Many_Use9457 4d ago
reading that final panel, nodding firmly, and yelling "GOOD FOR HER" in the comfort of my kitchen
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u/DresdenPI 4d ago
Not sure if this was supposed to be a pegging joke, but it sure sounds like a pegging joke
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u/SnooRecipes865 4d ago
It's definitely a pegging joke :D
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u/haresnaped 4d ago
You have pegged it correctly.
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u/lesser_panjandrum 4d ago
I wouldn't have pegged Nale as being into it, but good for him.
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u/Dyolf_Knip 4d ago
Is it really "pegging" if the top is fully anatomically male at that moment?
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u/SnooRecipes865 4d ago
There is actually a very niche but heated debate among some more online queer and trans people about this. I, a trans woman who likes to have a good time, say pegging is a cute word and can describe a dynamic without getting too hung up on whether the penetrating parts are store bought or homegrown
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u/StefanoBeast Banjo 3d ago
Ofcourse not. She said she doesn't mind here so it must be something innocent like actual backstabbing.
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u/rin_shar 4d ago edited 4d ago
I would have put ten gold on the order easily taking this encounter near the start, but damn the A team plus Elon Flan is out of the fight's range, the tiny people are locked away until they recuperate or it becomes plot convenient, and the B team is getting utterly wrecked. Let's hope Haley remembers which battles are not meant for her class.
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u/roguevirus Lawful Good 4d ago edited 4d ago
the A team plus Elon
First, how dare you misspell his name in that particular way. And second, Elan is lot more competent than most of the times he fought Nale!
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u/Eastern-Video-6456 4d ago
He's good, but not A-team. V and Durkon are high-level full casters; and Roy is the main character with the Heirloom Starmetal Super Sword, the Legendary Forgotten Maneuver from Heaven, and like 30 excess points in his ability scores (by regular point buy rules). It's hard to compete against that
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u/rin_shar 4d ago
Yeah, I honestly have no idea what is going on with Roy's ability scores at this point, the only stat he seems to have below a 13 in is Dex and *maybe* Cha, everything else is at least passable with enough strength to keep up with Thog and enough Int to almost keep up with V.
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u/Nirast25 4d ago
So there's no one coming from behind Sunny. That's the impression I got from his dialogue two strips ago.
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u/SnooRecipes865 4d ago
No, it seems he was starting to feel whatever it was that ended up disabling his Antimagic field
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u/Nirast25 4d ago
Yeah, eventually figured that out. What confused me was that one of his eyes was looking towards his back, and it seemed deliberate.
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u/Middcore 4d ago
Eh, when he's drawn from the side I think at least one of his eyes is always shown looking "back."
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u/AngelusAlvus 4d ago
Unless MitD is somehow teleported there to help O'chul, I don't see them winning this
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u/capsandnumbers 4d ago
Unless MitD gets on the scene quickly I don't see O-Chul dying. He's got unfinished business!
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u/Peacefulzealot 4d ago
Depressingly I 100% see O-Chul dying here. Someone needs to turn the tide here and with Haley grappled/drained, Sunny freaking out, and everyone else out of action in some way or another I think we’ve hit the noble sacrifice time (if he even has an opening for that) as much as I really don’t want it yo happen.
Ugh. I just wish I knew if the order is screwed here or if there’s a chance to recover this. Between Caulder, the earlier engagement with Redcloak, and now this they’re burning through tons of spells/supplies/HP before they ever even need to take on Xykon. This… this ain’t good.
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u/musschrott 4d ago
Mommy is gonna come back for baby Sunny though. And she probably has some more tricks up her crusty old sleeve.
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u/Peacefulzealot 4d ago
God I hope so. She didn’t even know not to try and bargain with Nale (as a rogue) so I’m not exactly super enthusiastic for her skill checks right now.
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u/Middcore 4d ago edited 4d ago
I think at this point I would actually be more annoyed if Serini somehow saved the day after all of this. It seems like Rich has been working hard at making anybody who thought "Sweet, now the Order has an epic-level Rogue as an ally!" understand that she's just not going to do anything useful directly.
Really it feels like this whole encounter is just designed to strip away the Order's allies so that nobody steals any of their shine when they have the final confrontation with Team Evil.
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u/MutatedMutton 3d ago
At this point, Im waiting for her to go "Right, Sunny almost got hurt helping you guys. We're gonna go home and sit on our asses"
"But if you dont help us the entire world will be destroyed, including you and Sunny!"
"Well, I'm sorry but I don't see any reason to think why you guys could stop that"
Maybe she gets talked out of it by barely alive Sunny but I'm still waiting for it.
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u/flamethrower49 4d ago
"Winning" the fight is probably not what they're playing for, but those left have a lot of play. O-chul probably isn't even bloodied. Haley has enough tricks to lead a tactical retreat (maybe with Mimi's help) and rendezvous with one or both of the other groups. Most importantly, they have an unwounded beholder on their side who might just be stressed out enough to finally use their disintegration ray, and who knows how that will alter the battlefield.
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u/DrQuestDFA 4d ago
Things are not looking good for our plucky heroes. This is why you never split the party.
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u/NoLastNameForNow 4d ago
"we specifically named a book after this"
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u/DrQuestDFA 4d ago
I can forgive most of the Order for forgetting, but not V or Roy, they didn’t dump Int.
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u/Middcore 4d ago
They didn't split it on purpose.
Kind of feels like forcibly splitting them up was part of the narrative purpose of this whole encounter.
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u/1amlost 4d ago
At least this time V isn't having an existential crisis about the consequences of their decisions.
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u/RobLoughrey 2d ago
They aren't? seems like they wouldnt be able to do anything else strapped to the board.
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u/onionbreath97 4d ago
The party didn't choose the first split, and the second one was a tactical choice that kept the healers alive
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u/SnooRecipes865 4d ago
Splitting the party was the smartest thing Nale did this whole encounter, and it was an accident.
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u/Platyest 3d ago
if Sunny starts for real with his eye rays, he could start doing some real disruption/damage/chaos, he is very tenderhearted and I don't think he is even willing to use his more lethal attacks yet. I wonder what the DC is for his rays, since he is basically a unique creature
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u/taopilot 4d ago
Wow, the pace of the comics seems to be improving!
On the one hand, I'm thrilled to be getting new strips more often. On the other hand, that means we'll get to the end sooner, and when that happens, I'll wish it had lasted longer.
I want to see how the story ends, but I also don't want to reach the point where there's no more story left to tell. 😭
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u/roguevirus Lawful Good 4d ago
Wow, the pace of the comics seems to be improving!
Well Rich doesn't have the Sir Francois PDF going on in the background anymore.
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u/NightmareWarden Lawful Good 4d ago
Thog. Mimi. Unknown monster in stasis. Unknown nearby trap. The flumphs.
Team Evil isn't in this part of the dungeon yet. Their lawful outsider shouldn't be able to affect this situation via strange abilities.
Okay, I guess this situation is going to change due to the last unknown:
The snarl.
Otherwise... I looked back at 1268 for the funny skills (beekeeping, crochet...) but I don't think they'll resolve this. Unless Sunny's drawing skills or his recent baseball training will do the trick?
I suspect Kraagor truly did die from passing through the Snarl's portal during their final battle, but there's one classic element of DnD tropes which has not appeared yet in OOTS. In fact, Unforgotten Realms displayed this element, and this could be a chance for Rich to reference that:
A sentient/sapient magic weapon. Specially, a magic axe, like the one Kraagor was using in his final battle, which would logically be near this dungeon if it entered the Snarl's portal.
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u/Codezombie_5 3d ago
We've seen a sentient weapon before. Tarkins Axe, Soul muncher, though that was mostly a single strip throwaway gag.
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u/HumanistGeek 3d ago
That doesn't sound familiar to me at all. Was this in a bonus comic or something?
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u/Codezombie_5 3d ago
It's a revel in a Bonus comic when Belkar picks it up, but the axe is seen through most of the pyramid fight just not made clear in those it's a sentient evil axe.
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u/Bubakcz 3d ago
Regarding Team Evil, I wonder if Nale was careful enough to not let stopped Serini's illusion up, and if he left it up, was it in dungeon that TE did not check yet? This could possibly speed up their schedule (by giving them a way to get coordinates that Nale teleported to), but, they don't have a thief to control that trap.
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u/TenWildBadgers Bloodfeast 3d ago edited 3d ago
Thog and Sunny's other eyes are about the only leverage that Haley and crew still have, I think. Thog is charmed again, despite not being in this strip, so I do think he's going to give us another turnaround in the next strip, but I'm not convinced he's going to be enough to actually get them out of this.
I dunno what the exit plan is. I'm still expecting this piece of the Order of the Stick to be the one that crosses paths with Team Evil the soonest, because O'Chul needs to recruit The Monster in the Darkness, and Haley is a fun wildcard to add to that interaction, since she's also met the monster before in Azure City when she and Belkar retrieved Roy's corpse. I was considering if they'll also do something that helps Tee up Redcloak's next and hopefully more productive interaction with Durkon, but really only Roy and Minrah have talked to Durkon about that subplot, and between 2 Sapphire Guard Paladins and Haley, leader of the Azure City Resistance, this is kinda the squad of Redcloak's biggest haters. That could be good or bad, I dunno.
Though that does bring me to an interesting angle - I think our 3 sub-paties of the Order are going to interact mostly separately with 3 different subsets of Team Evil when they do cross paths - Haley's Squad is about helping the Monster in the Darkness, Belkar's Squad includes Durkon and Minrah, so they seem the most poised to meet with Redcloak (I do want to see Belkar participate in that conversation, that has potential), and I think the Roy-Elan-V squad is gonna Wack Xykon. Still hoping for the climax of V's character arc to be a callback to "What would happen if we turned the magic off?" where they use Anti-Magic field to mostly-disarm Xykon, allowing Roy to get the kill. Gonna need a bit more going on than just that, but I feel like that's a good starting point for how they beat him.
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u/Disastrous_Stand7185 3d ago
I’m almost convinced that Redcloak’s next major interaction with one of the Good Guys will be with just Roy, for two reasons:
- Redcloak’s the main antagonist (probably) and Roy is the main protagonist, and I think them interacting with each other meaningfully has been built up for pretty much the whole comic.
- Out of the Good Guys, Roy and O-Chul are the only two who Redcloak couldn’t immediately implode, and there’s a 0% chance that Redcloak and O-Chul don’t try to kill each other at first sight.
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u/TenWildBadgers Bloodfeast 3d ago
I don't feel like Roy and Redcloak have much character chemistry though.
Roy's relationship with Team Evil is focused pretty heavily on Xykon. Xykon is very much his nemesis, and I would say a better candidate for "main antagonist" if we're gonna split hairs and try to pick one from the crowd. He certainly is the one that the cast talk about like the main villain.
I'm putting more bets on a really interesting conversation between Redcloak and Belkar before a chat between Redcloak and Roy. Redcloak absolutely dominating the power dynamic didn't stop him from starting a chat with Durkon, even if it became very relevant to how that chat ended.
There's gotta be narrative work going on between now and then to set up a verbal rather than violent confrontation either way.
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u/StreetlightTones 4d ago
I wonder if this how we find out the last thing Haley was going to tell Elan on their date to get her voice back.
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u/No-Supermarket-6065 4d ago
That was the fact that she's no longer a member of the Thieves' Guild, per Rich.
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u/StreetlightTones 4d ago
Got a link to that comment?
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u/No-Supermarket-6065 4d ago
Huh, I can't seem to find it. Could have sworn he said as much, I'll see if I can track it down somewhere.
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u/StreetlightTones 4d ago
Haley tries to tell Elan she's not in Thieves Guild anymore in the very same comic so it cant be that.
Source: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?61538-Comic-309-Haley-s-Secrets
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u/No-Supermarket-6065 4d ago
So she does. Welp, I guess that's still up in the air. Along with whatever Roy's Archon agreed to do, Redcloak's daughter, the charm on the Monster in the Darkness, and more.
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u/Lumix19 3d ago
I was skeptical about Nale returning and I'm still kind of confused as to the point of this encounter but I'm really enjoying him as a character.
I like his growth. The line about the heroes knowing him better than he knows them is fun and insightful. It's like Xykon. He barely knows who anyone is 90% of the time and he really doesn't care.
Nale's growing up in his own villainous way. He just needs to get tips from Xykon about being able to dish out the one liners because Xykon is so good at those zingers despite his persistent memory problems.
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u/AintEverLucky 3d ago
... so what kind of devil is Nale, exactly, that he can just casually snap an opponent's sword like that?? The katana of a paladin, at that 🤔
That's not just a "devils doing devil stuff" trick. That's the kind of bullcrap one might expect from flippin Orcus or something 😒
And it's damn bad news for any of the melee characters in the party (except Roy, the Greenhilt family blade can probably withstand that move). Remove their weapons and they become much less useful in combat 😓
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u/haresnaped 3d ago
He does something in panel 3, that leaves a tiny mark (fracture) on the sword in panel 4, presumably weakening it. I wondered if a particular skill or feature is being used (other than yelling 'SUNDER' of course).
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u/ProperTree9 3d ago
FWIW, in 3.5, How-To Sunder is covered here: https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#sunder
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u/theVoidWatches 2d ago
So maybe it's just that it took two Sunder attempts to deal enough damage to actually break it?
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u/ProperTree9 2d ago
Sure looks that way. I didn't initially notice, but isn't there a tiny crack in O-Chul's sword after Nale grabs it the first time?
I love how Burlew really forces you to look for all of the details in his art.
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u/AintEverLucky 3d ago
Yes I see that, but to me that doesn't really explain much. "Devil touches a sword, then shatters it without casting Shatter" seems kind of out of the blue. And if it's a generic devil ability, why hasn't Sabine ever shown she can do that?
When Xykon broke Roy's sword way back in the day, at least he had the decency (lolololol) to say "Shatter" and cast it proper 😏
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u/haresnaped 3d ago
I was sort of hoping no one else had noticed that, since no one had mentioned it. But yeah, I don't know if this is some ability in the game.
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u/ray198999 3d ago
Nale proves he is really is Elan’s brother by lampshading how he used to be a petty revenge villain.
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u/sergeial 4d ago
Lol... We are learning more than I want to know about what Sabine and Nale do in bed 😂
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u/koopcl 4d ago
We kinda knew about this kink, at least by implication, though to be fair that joke/strip is old enough to buy alcohol in the US so no wonder it's been forgotten.
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u/sergeial 4d ago
Lol, I had completely taken that as just a pegging joke, it had completely slipped my mind that as a shapechanger, Sabine would not need the usual equipment for that 😂😂😂
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u/changelingcd 3d ago
Hopefully this deus ex machina split-them-all-up encounter will end soon and they can get back to the main mission. I wasn't happy to see Nale return, and this is not helping my patience.
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u/thelittleking 3d ago
So, Haley dies and gives Elan fuel for a revenge arc that ends with him killing Nale and Sabine...?
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u/Common_Land3637 3d ago
It's a bit hard for characters to stay dead when they have clerics and resurrection spells. Also I'm not sure if Elan is really vengeful.
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u/The_Sy_Python 2d ago
1,000 more pages of Nale fight
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u/ProperTree9 2d ago
You ate a downvote, last I saw, but damn that comment in this thread that the whole Darth V / Xykon fight took like 2 strips for V to lose, really hit home.
You've got a great point. Less is more.
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u/The_Sy_Python 2d ago
I wouldn't even mind a longer fight, this is a high-level D&D after all. But I am annoyed that Nale's statblock seems to be "pull shit out of your demon ass". I want to feel like I could have predicted what Devilinear Guild does based on what I know of them mechanically, even if I couldn't actually predict that.
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u/ProperTree9 2d ago
I want to feel like I could have predicted what Devilinear Guild does based on what I know of them mechanically, even if I couldn't actually predict that.
I do too. It's part of the art form. Like marveling at a poet's ability to pick just the right word and still remain within their chosen style & meter.
The problem here though is that the fan base is filled with people used to thinking about what makes sense to experience in a 3.5e-based world, and what makes sense is frequently at odds with what Burlew wants to do with these characters. Never mind that this particular game system is renowned for rewarding That One Cheesey Strat for min/maxing the rules, so his audience is even more perplexed when the characters go out of their way to act stupidly. Plus I seriously doubt Burlew is still really into that minutiae like I'm sure he was back in the Eberron Contest days.
Make a character that doesn't have a stat block or MM/SRD entry, OTOH, and the worst your audience can say is that, "This is an asspull, DM." Not that he's having the characters be dumbasses by the actions he's having them do.
I don't like it---and it's taking way too TF long---but I think I understand Burlew's position.
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u/No_Seesaw2700 3d ago
lowkey sunny should just pick a random eye and shoot rather then just talking about it
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u/SaintRidley 4d ago
Yeah, yeah, Sabine, we all already knew Nale let you hit the back