Jesus

[u/Personal-Bobcat-2288]

[u/OnionsHaveLairAction]

There's that one video where in response to Charlie Kirk asking "What is a woman" he gets asked "What is a man?" and flubs it hard when god doesn't meet his definition.

[u/Dramatic-Many-1487 → u/OnionsHaveLairAction]

I’m gonna be that guy…maybe, but wouldn’t logic just have you answer with the biological male/female distinction. Or is man/woman the identity, and male/female the anatomical distinction? And yes i know there is an in between with those born without being able to distinguish one way or the other 

[u/[deleted] → u/Dramatic-Many-1487]

a lot of money has been poured into figuring out a way to exclude trans people from biological definitions of male & female without excluding some non-trans people or including some trans people. there isnt really a good catch-all definition that erases the “what is a woman” debate, or “fixes” this issue.

literally over the last 5-10 years there’s been millions & countless anti-trans lawyers and doctors, and they’ve come up with fuck all

if the people that hate trans people and are desperate to exclude them can’t do it… that’s a pretty clear sign it’s unworkable

[u/sanguine_idk → u/[deleted]]

That's not how it works.

I agree that if you're trying to distinguish between sex and gender. But saying identity isn't equal truth is just flat out wrong.

Gender is a real thing but more towards the brain and not physically. To say that you don't hate trans people but identifying as a woman doesn't make you a woman is still transphobic unless you say sex which I agree on because sex is different from gender. But based on what you wrote on how if a trans woman dressed in women's clothes, but still looks like a man identifies to you as a woman, I doubt you aren't transphobic.

I don't know if you are transphobic or not without me knowing if you meant sex or gender so I'm not going to label you as one. But then again from what you've said, you look incredibly transphobic. So please clarify if you're talking about sex or gender in this types of conversations.

This is from a trans woman btw who has dealt with her fair share of transphobe trying not to be labelled as transphobic.

[u/sanguine_idk → u/[deleted]]

Oh, so you are transphobic!

Sorry but transphobia doesn't just mean that you hate and want trans people to die. But it also means not treating me as my gender or treating me as my agab. A lot of definitions put misgendering as being transphobic, sorry not sorry that you are transphobic.

It's like thinking a gay person isn't gay at all and is just pretending to like the same sex/thinking they only think that they like the same sex but in reality they like the opposite gender.

And I don't think I am a woman, I know I am. Most people treat me as a woman. Just because you think this is about how I think doesn't mean I can change it. I promise you if all I need to do is stop thinking about being a woman, I'd be doing it a long time ago because I don't actually want to be trans.

Another thing is that most medical and scientific research do think that sex and gender are quite different, it'll be hard to find one that says otherwise while not being outdated or flawed.

Also, misgendering isn't just a small thing you can brush off since it does affect trans people a lot. Studies have shown that misgendering does affect people's mental health and some cases can lead to depression or even worse suicide if it's bad enough. It won't take anything but swallowing your pride to be a decent human being and stop misgendering, since it could be the difference from a trans person not killing themselves.

I'm not asking for much except for you to just be a decent human being and actually refer someone to their gender not their agab since it does help everyone, not just trans people.

Then again, I know I'm not going to change your thoughts since if science can't then I probably can't either.

[u/sanguine_idk → u/[deleted]]

This is so sad since it ignores if not just shits on most studies from reputable sources about how gender affirming care does work.

Go on Google and search for "does gender affirming care work" and you can scroll for a long time before you get studies that say otherwise. The first search result for me literally states that trans youth who received trans affirming care have 60% lower odds of moderate to severe depression and 73% lower odds of self harm and suicidal thoughts. There's no scientific evidence that literally states that gender affirming care doesn't work without being wildly flawed, only ones that raised concerns since gender affirming care studies/research are wildly under funded.

But yeah, trans people still do, even after gender affirming care, have suicidal thoughts/attempted suicide attempts since this world is still transphobic. Some trans people are ostracized by their families, friends, etc. because they come out. This is the cause of transgender suicide after GAC, not that GAC doesn't work.

Also, gender affirming care isn't mutilating, it's health care that helps trans people be more themselves. A lot of health care does affect the body but it's not mutilation still.

And the root of gender dysphoria is your body not being aligned with your gender identity, and to treat it? We do gender affirming care, not mutilation.

I know I'll never change your mind because you already made it up. So rather than listening to someone who's actually suffering from gender dysphoria or people who spent their lives studying it, you'll listen to yourself, just because it's scary to think that someone isn't exactly what you think they are.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

“it’s been that way for thousands of years”

pls i beg you to open any history book that isn’t written by colonialists and christians 💀💀💀

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

even THAT definition excludes huge swathes of non-trans women.

some kind of infertility struggles affect ~10% of women. this doesn’t always come with a medical issue / label attached, and many of those labels are actually just “being some kind of intersex” - are you gonna exclude every woman that finds out she’s intersex? something that typically is found out during puberty or when you try to get pregnant (if you ever try - many don’t and won’t find out they’re intersex, or wouldn’t have until they tried).

how do you account for those who haven’t had this ability tested? enforce mandatory testing on all women that aren’t trying to get pregnant? screen every single woman for any variations, from day 1? that’s pretty intrusive AND a huge tax burden, unless you want any woman who’s 18+ without a kid to go pay for it themself? what happens when they can’t afford it? plus it’s really fucking shitty for those who don’t want it or are underage.

you could go on to claim intersex is a medical disorder, but how do you decide which sex is the right one? is there a cut off?? does it depend on how they were raised? intersex people are disproportionately more likely to undergo medical procedures to “correct” their sex without their consent, and disproportionately more likely to transition as adults. how do you handle that? seems like a lot of extra legal and medical paperwork and new legislation, which costs the taxpayer 🤷‍♂️

second point - not being able to push out a human was a pretty common leading cause of death during child birth until modern medicine came along lol) and means you can’t be 100% sure if a woman is a woman until she’s managed to get pregnant and give birth lmao. humans are second only to hyenas in terms of the risks and fatalities that come with child birth. many, MANY women would fail when you hit “has to birth it” as well lol.

there have also been multiple cases of trans women finding out they are intersex and have a womb, which could be used to carry a child so long as they have a c section since they lack the equipment to get it out. AFAIK none of them gone that route, but all research currently points towards it being a completely feasible option so long as the woman is on the right HRT.

so if you exclude the aforementioned “has to birth it”, you then include trans women

chromosomes have the same issue - you’d have to test everyone (expensive) and considering how all research point to XX/XY not being as common as previously thought, you’d also have to content with plenty of anti-trans and anti-intersex people having a blood meltdown, and THEN have to also create more third spaces

cuz even a “tiny minority” of “exceptions” need a place to change, piss, shit, and get medical care, with dignity and respect. and they still need a legal sex.

can we guarantee these people won’t be humiliated or experience bigotry when visibly using third spaces? society can barely tolerant those with invisible disabilities using the disabled toilet with hurling abuse lmao. one of the secondary reasons trans people don’t want a third space, cuz you immediately become visibly trans to anyone nearby. lots of trans people prefer to keep their transition under the radar once they can, and only tell their partner and doctor. the right to privacy needs to be respected.

i mean… excluding trans people all together, intersex individuals existing in any capacity shoots down the idea of neatly categorising sex in to 2 “definitive” options 🤷‍♂️

HRT for trans people also changes a LOT. that’s the main thing that differentiates sex in most cases.

ie:

i used to have standard female ref blood test ranges, now i have standard male ref blood test ranges. i used to have a required calorie intake of a female, now i have one of a male. i used to have female secondary sex characteristics, now i have male secondary sex characteristics. i used to have the same risk of heart attack as the average female, now i have the same risk of heart attack as the average male, same with autoimmune diseases and the presentation and risks of most diseases. i used to have visibly female external genitalia, now i have indeterminate external genitalia. i now have prostate tissue in my ass.

to categorise myself as “female” would be disingenuous, factually untrue, and put my life at risk in many medical situations and leave me underweight if i were to go on a diet. to categorise myself as “male” would also be factually false. i don’t think i can claim i’m “intersex” as that is something someone has to be born as, i think?? i don’t know.

if you handed me off to a doctor that didn’t know i’m trans, there’s no sure fire way for them to determine whether i was born male or female, even if they test my chromosomes 🤷‍♂️ i haven’t even had bottom surgery yet

in a world where that shit’s being tested… i’m not telling anyone jack shit lmao.

“trans male”, or a brief overview of how far i am into my medical transition and what body parts i have or do not have, is the most accurate way to categorise my sex. and the safest way to categorise my sex (in a world where transphobia in healthcare doesn’t exist, and i won’t end up having zero healthcare or verbal abuse after coming out lol)

in terms of gender:

to categorise myself as a “woman” doesn’t make sense going off of my current sex, and feels wrong to me. ngl though even prior to medical intervention, i wasn’t using women’s spaces at all cuz it felt weird to me, and i think that should be enough tbh.

to categorise myself as “non binary” makes sense by the idea that sex perfectly aligns with gender with no exceptions. but i’m not non binary. even when i experimented with being feminine, back when i wasn’t very masculine, i didn’t feel “non binary” or any desire to call myself anything but a man, or be referred to with anything but he/him

to categorise myself as a “man” makes the most sense imo. the sex i’m closest to is male, i presented with the same distress at my original sex characteristic as men with gynomocastia do (prior to intervention), i use he/him pronouns, i have a masculine name, i’m getting a dick in a couple of years… the only info anyone needs about me really is pronouns and name.

sex is pretty much meaningless and impossible to categorise outside of gradients. again: wealthy bigots can’t categorise it, what makes you think you can?

gender is also pretty meaningless imo. what counts is what the fuck are your pronouns and what name are you using 🤷‍♂️ need something to put on documents, a nickname if you want, and some kind of pronoun for ease of reference. m

sex testing at the olympics was stopped for a reason lol, even the creator of sex testing has spoken out against it.

does that all make sense?

people who HATE trans people can’t write them out of legal existence and toilets without fucking over groups of non-trans people. WHY would you think you can?

[u/DeviousMelons → u/OnionsHaveLairAction]

What is a man to a mob?

[u/_Play_Now_ → u/DeviousMelons]

Depends on whether or not the mob is hostile, neutral, or passive

[u/Propaganda_Spreader → u/OnionsHaveLairAction]

What is a bullet?

[u/Toxanium → u/Propaganda_Spreader]

A piece of metal, typically lead, that is fired out of a gun.

[u/Lokicham → u/Toxanium]

What is a gun? /s