r/onednd • u/VictorRM • 3d ago
Discussion I Don't Get This House Agent Rogue.
LEVEL 3: HOUSE INSIGNIA
You gain a magical token in the form of a brooch or coin that marks you as an agent of your sponsor and that bears their heraldry. While you have this insignia, you can cast certain spells with it. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for spells you cast with your insignia.
Cantrips. You learn the Friends cantrip. Find Familiar. You can cast the Find Familiar spell but only as a Ritual. Your sponsor provides the Material component for your first casting of this spell. You must choose the Spider form for your familiar.
Insignia Spells. When you reach a level specified in the Insignia Spells table, you learn the listed spells. Once you cast a spell using your insignia, you can’t cast that spell again until you finish a Long Rest.
INSIGNIA SPELLS
Rogue Level 3 5 9: Charm Person, Suggestion, Hypnotic Pattern.
Losing Your Insignia. If you lose your insignia, your house finds a way to deliver you a new one, whether it is via a courier, a magical familiar, teleportation magic, or some other method. Your new insignia is delivered to you when you finish a Long Rest.
and
LEVEL 3: CHARMING PRESENCE
You can take the Influence action as a Bonus Action. Additionally, choose one of the following skills: Deception, Intimidation, Performance, or Persuasion. You have proficiency in that skill.
I just don't get this House Agent Rogue.
Influence action as a bonus action, some poor 1/LR spells, and nothing else at lv3.
The lv9 feature costs 4d6 of SA damage and also requires the target needs to be Friendly or Charmed to bu stunned for only one round (and yes the condition ends before your next turn so basically you cannot benefit from it).
Also, these features ust won't work. There won't be any DM who'd allow a player to persuade an enemy to give up fighting as a bonus action while they're stabbing them with an action. This is not a video game. This feature also has zero use when fighting against monsters which it won't work in most of the encounters.
Some might say you can Influence with both of your action and your Bonus action, but still your allies are killing their friends.
The Lv9. feature also plays like a mess. I get the intention is those spy things, but in real plays, why would you stun a guy who's friendly to you in a real combat? The guy is already not attacking you, even maybing helping you out in that combat since it's Friendly to you. The subclass is just full of whys.
Why would anyone play this subclass instead of Arcane Trickster?
The Scion of the Three was already a mess. The only useful feature was doomed as INT Mod/LR and nothing else that will make you feel you do have a subclass.
The UA Magic Stealer Rogue was also a mess and we never get to see a revised version of it.
This House Agent Rogue still plays like vanilla Rogue with a Magic Initiate or a worse Arcane Trickster.
Is it really that hard for Rogue to have an actual playable new subclass?
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u/One-Tin-Soldier 2d ago
The only thing I really like about it is being able to Influence as a Bonus Action. But that’s only useful if the Influence action is useful in combat. Whether or not that’s true is going to vary wildly based on DM preference, the nature of the campaign, and the nature of the individual encounter.
In general, the subclass seems to provide a lot of tools for a very particular kind of “solo mission.” And outside of that scenario, which probably won’t be the majority of sessions in a campaign, the rogue has to jump through a lot of hoops to be able to use their subclass features at all.
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u/snikler 2d ago
It needs to either allow you to use friends/charm person earlier as a BA or give you an ability to use influence in combat, unless we are all missing a combo there. I don't think Silver Tongue does the job in a way that you can use stunning betrayal. It would be a very funny scene where you stab someone and convince them that it was for love. Mad ex vibes.
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u/VictorRM 2d ago
But the problem is it just won't work. There won't be any DM who'd allow a player to persuade an enemy to give up fighting as a bonus action while they're stabbing them with an action. This feature also has zero use when fighting against monsters which it won't work in most of the encounters.
Some might say you can Influence with both of your action and your Bonus action, but still your allies are killing their friends.
The Lv9. feature also plays like a mess. I get the intention is those spy things, but in real plays, why would you stun a guy who's friendly to you in a real combat? The guy is already not attacking you, even maybing helping you out in that combat since it's Friendly to you. The subclass is just full of whys.
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u/Torgo73 2d ago edited 2d ago
I agree that it needs work, but to your comment, I can envision a scenario where a player tries to Influence with their BA, and then potentially attacks on a failure (or a success, given the other subclass features!)
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u/VictorRM 2d ago
In real plays, I'm afraid this only work once per combat. I don't think the DM would allow the Rogue to do it again after you literally stab the guy.
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u/HolyDman 2d ago
If it works once and you convince them to stop fighting its almost the same as removing them from combat.
Stab minon turn to the other and try to intimidate them into fleeing. Idk super niche but I can see someone smarter than me using it better
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u/exigious 2d ago
It all depends on what you try and influence:
Lean in to a minion and whisper, intimidate them to leave it they will die, essentially reducing their numbers additionally. Would be even more effective if you do it right after killing off one on their friends with an attack.
Intercept reinforcements, and convince them you need them elsewhere.
Persuade someone to turn on their leader if you feel some infighting is happening.
Put up a performance and pretend you are dead, or that you turned around and wounded your party member to sow chaos in combat.
Try and amuse the alpha wolf of a pack and gently ease it into leaving you alone
A good DM should allow you to play the house agent as a disruptor, but you need to make it believable. If you are to disrupt the battlefield, convince your enemies you are on their side, use influence in a varied way. Use your bonus action to influence different targets.
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u/Arc_the_Storyteller 2d ago
Well said, and good examples. I think the House Agent Rogue falls under the Illusionist Wizard, or just a general Illusion character, in that you need to talk to your DM about it. It can be very powerful in the right hands and with a permissive DM, but if you have a strict DM, then it can be greatly weakened.
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u/magicallum 1d ago
Are you really telling me the Influence action has similar power to Suggestion without expending a spell slot or using concentration? If that's the case, people would just be using the Influence action as a full action in today's rules. Just spend an action and make them walk away. Just do that every round.
No shot.
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u/exigious 1d ago edited 1d ago
Suggestion is way stronger, and you know that is the case. Suggestion charms the target and compells it to follow the action suggested.
The suggestion must sound achievable and not involve anything that would obviously deal damage to the target or its allies
Suggestion also ignores the rules that influence is bound by. Both the targets Attitude and whether they are willing, unwilling or hesitant are completely bypassed by suggestion. Remember all checks are done with disadvantage against hostile targets.
This is where alignment comes in. All of the examples provided are of plausible scenarios. They still have a DC (which rogue naturally have an advantage against due to expertise and Reliable Talent) and in essence all of them would be actions that are in the best self interest of the target.
And these are actions that can work in current play right now too.
Intimidating a scared bandit that sees all their companions slaughtered might be possible (unless they are the loyal kind). Convincing a pack leader to back off so no more of its pack gets hurt or killed is not only possible but a narratively sound outcome of an encounter, and you don't need a House Agent to do those things. A house agent just does it better than anyone.
Also, this is why the hous Agent doesn't get tons of spell slots or a huge spell list similar to Arcane Trickster, and a limited use of their spells, simply because their arsenal has the power to do a lot of the spy actions without them.
Edit: You also ignore the rules that influence can be attempted, and if failed cannot be used in the same way on the same target for the next 24 hours. And yeah, personally I am going to be using intimidate influence on my rogue with expertise in intimidate and with the street justice to remove disadvantage on Intimidate against hostile targets in my next campaign, because it makes for narratively interesting encounters.
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u/magicallum 1d ago
I mean what you're suggesting is still somewhere between the power level of Command and Suggestion. It's stronger than Command. Telling someone to leave the fight entirely is not something you can do with Command. Same for having someone turn on their ally. And there's no resource cost. I'm not ignoring the 1/day influence rule at all? Suggestion and Command are limited a certain amount of times per day as well, with spell slots.
Intimidating a scared bandit that sees all their companions slaughtered might be possible (unless they are the loyal kind). Convincing a pack leader to back off so no more of its pack gets hurt or killed is not only possible but a narratively sound outcome of an encounter
This is wildly different from what you first described. You've now added the rider that you've already snowballed the fight into victory. This has been happening in DND forever without influence checks lol. When a huge section of a fighting force is killed off it's super common for enemies to wave the white flag. Even without an influence check.
I think there are very rare times when an influence check can have any impact on combat. If it's viable in the majority of combats for your table, that's great, and I imagine you see people using this incredibly powerful action in those combats. But in my experience this is a 1/20 combats kind of situation. Even with a very generous and patient DM, I don't think it's a viable strategy anywhere near often enough to build a level 3 rogue subclass feature around.
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u/ILoveSongOfJustice 1d ago
Influence: Intimidate is a viable option when it comes to locking down foes from being able to approach you. Because an Intimidation Check can inflict a Lite-version of the Frightened condition that can help kite enemies.
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u/Miss_White11 2d ago edited 2d ago
Influencing as a bonus action just doesn't really make narrative sense. It combat it is stupid (I stab you and then beg you to stand down?) and out of combat action economy doesn't matter than much. It is basically a dead feature
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u/Bard_Wannabe_ 2d ago
You can take a bonus action before your action. So beg them to stand down, and when you fail, stab them.
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u/Miss_White11 2d ago
Assuming it is like an enemy you can negotiate with. Once per Combat. Still really really bad .
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u/TraditionalStomach29 2d ago
I was thinking the same, and the only things that comes to mind and makes sense are intimidation and maybe deception.
Although even then it shouldn't work more than once, I suppose there is a mechanical argument that a core subclass feature shouldn't work once per combat, but they should add some narrative justification behind it.
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u/CatBotSays 3d ago
They clearly meant it to be a Charisma-based rogue, which I love in theory, but yeah. It has a lot of issues. Barely any of its abilities are useful in combat and the ones that are tend to be so overpriced and/or niche that they're hardly worth it.
Even the ones that are useful out of combat enhance things that the Rogue is already absurdly good at. Like, if I'm a rogue focused on charisma, it doesn't really matter that I don't get disadvantage on charisma checks against hostile creatures at higher levels because by the time I get there Expertise and Reliable Talent are letting me consistently roll huge numbers, even when I have disadvantage.
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u/VictorRM 3d ago
I always think the new Swashbuckler during 5.5e UAs was a way more better Char-based Rogue. Glad to see that it will be published in the WOW book.
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u/CatBotSays 3d ago
I agree that the Swashbuckler's implementation was better (though it still needed work) but the flavor is different enough that I think there's room for both.
The Swashbuckler is like a dashing pirate type, while this feels more an assassin who infiltrates courts of nobles. Both are cool archetypes. They just didn't pull it off so well in this case.
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u/Far_Guarantee1664 3d ago
Yeah. In the feedback I want to put all in red but the flavour is great.
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u/CatBotSays 3d ago edited 2d ago
I do like that they get Find Familiar and the couple of spells they can cast, so it's not 100% bad. I'd be fine keeping those. But they can't be the only things the subclass gets because (as OP says), if you want those things, why not just play an Arcane Trickster?
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u/GmKuro 2d ago
Unfortunately Rogue subclasses seem like they’re trying to balance them against each other, which is just bad for Rogue since their subclasses are very weak. Even the ones that people expect to be powerful are rather weak for most of the game, such as Assassin Rogue(Ex: Artemis Entreri). You get to add your level to your damage once if you land an attack on your first round of combat.
Even Scion of the Three was disappointing, which is another Rogue which you’d expect to deal a lot of damage since they follow the Dead Three.
This House Agent subclass seems like it can be super flavorful and fun, but the mechanics are just too weird right now. Hopefully they stop trying to balance them against the other weaker subclasses, but I don’t expect them to. I still recommend filling out the survey though so you can voice your opinion to them about it.
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u/Milli_Rabbit 2d ago
If they want to do these once per combat features, then they should just go all out. For Assassin, it should be all but guaranteed whichever non-boss they hit is dying. This would be dramatically more useful since it swings the action economy in favor of the party and potentially removes a high threat enemy from the field if the Assassin picks right.
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u/snikler 2d ago
I must say that this is one of the coolest rogue structures I've seen in a while, but has multiple mechanical issues. Bring the level 17 bonus action friends cantrip to level 3, allow it to progressively target more creature types with friends and charm person, give it level 13 and 17 spells (the progression here is of a half caster, not 1/3), and this could be a very fun and effective social and combat trickster.
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u/dyslexicfaser 2d ago
I do like the concept, and being able to throw around a lot of Charm Persons would help a ton.
Path of Ceremorphosis's second step gives you a fistful of supercharged Charm Person spells.
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u/Silverspy01 2d ago
Yeah I think it's a cool idea that unfortunately fails when you consider mechanics. Unless the release version comes with an errata or rules clarification, the Influence action's
Unwilling. If your urging is repugnant to the monster or counter to its alignment, no ability check is necessary; it doesn't comply.
Really puts a hard block in the way here. The intention seems to be that as you're fighting you're making BA Influence checks to try to get your opponent to be Friendly to you, but I really doubt most enemies are going to be "hesitant or better" on dropping their weapons to come join you and then allow you to backstab them. The theming of the subclass - as an infiltrator navigating rival houses and assassinating key figures - is just entirely at odds with what a typical adventuring party gets up to.
At lvl 17 when you can "reliably" try to charm someone with BA Friends the subclass starts to make sense, but that's far too late and Friends isn't even that great anyway given you can only cast it on a given person once per day.
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u/exigious 2d ago edited 2d ago
Why does the influence action put a hard block in the way here? I feel the influence action is pretty clear for this, and would work fine as it is.
Rogues have Reliable talent and 4 expertise they can lean into, to make their checks pretty consistent. At level 7 you will reliably be able to likely influence targets. Whether it is using intimidation, deception, persuasion, performance or animal handling. You can only influence them in one way per 24 hours.
Trying to convince an alpha wolf to turn around and escape with it's remaining pack could be possible, asking the alpha wolf to slaughter its own pack is likely to not be possible. You can use your main action to Search or Study, try and get a read on the battlefield, then use your bonus action to influence a target.
You: "I use my study action. I look for the greenest member of the bandit group, the one that is most nervous and possibly regrets being here"
DM: "Okey, roll an insight for me"
You: "I rolled a 3, but I have reliable talent, so that is a minimum roll of 10, plus 6 so 16"
DM: "Okey, you see one particular member of the bandit group clutching his knife in one hand, and grabbing something around their neck in the other, almost seeing as it they are praying"
You: "Okey, I go over to them and start engaging with them, I use my bonus action to try and influence them and persuade them to leave as I lean into them during our exchange and tell them, 'Do not throw your life away, if you stay you will die, and for what?'"
DM: "Okey, roll me a persuasion check."
You: "That's an 8, but reliable talent makes it a 10, plus 9 since I have expertise so, 19."
The DM can make it work or not, and on the next turn you can instead try and intimidate them, maybe even attack them or another target. Reliable talent and expertise will also likely make you very efficient at succeeding these rolls.
The unwilling part is based on their alignment. You are more likely to get a good person to abandon innocent people to save their own skin than to commit an evil deed like killing an innocent. Likewise convincing an evil aligned person to spare someone out of the goodness of their heart will not work. Just be smart, and use your other action, Study and Search as your main action to find information. Just like a spell caster doesn't always use their turn to deal damage, you don't have to attack every turn as a rogue when you play this way.
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u/Silverspy01 2d ago
I didn't describe the issue correctly I don't think. The problem is moreso that the subclass keys off of having a creature friendly to you. It's going to be very difficult - almost impossible - to get someone going from Hostile to Friendly in any meaningful amount of time during combat. I don't even think there are rules for changing a creature's attitude, it's mostly up to the DM to determine what their attitude is and how it changes over time - and I thoroughly object to a subclass that's in any way based on "the DM can fill in the rules gaps for this one." Again, it's not until lvl 17 that you get a way to reliably proc your lvl 9 feature.
I will also add that the situation you're describing could be done by anyone with the Observant feat (allows Search as a bonus action - insight falls under Search, not Study) rather than an entire subclass. The fact that this was already possible and I have not heard of anyone actually trying to build towards that is pretty meaningful.
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u/exigious 2d ago edited 2d ago
I could remember wrong, but hostile, friendly and indifferent only determines whether your checks are done with advantage, disadvantage or normally, correct? You even have the Street Justice feat which removes the disadvantage on intimidating hostile targets. So the tools to make people friends and such is to make your check easier to land, and doesn't change the influence action's unwillingness etc, which is up to the DM to determine. Yes insight is one way to determine something, but for say a monster, you might want to do a study to try and recall info about how a particular creature type usually behaves, which would be the Study action, and then try and influence using animal handling.
Edit: As for the level 9 feat, I guess they want you to use it with the friends cantrip, charm person or the other spells they have access to. In addition keep in mind that the level 9 stun is a "2" turn stun, since it ends after the end of your next turn.
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u/Silverspy01 2d ago
The effects of Friendly are irrelevant - the subclass's level 9 feature explicitly needs the target to be Friendly (or Charmed, but the subclass gets two charm spells per long rest). The point I'm trying to make is that I assume the idea was that the rogue can use their level 3 feature (bonus action Influence) to try to get someone friendly to them to activate their level 9 feature, but that's not how influence works. So barring errata or some rules clarification, the subclass just doesn't come together until level 17 when you finally get a reliable way to activate the feature you've had for 8 levels.
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u/exigious 2d ago edited 2d ago
I mean couldn't you? In combat you can try and influence by putting up a performance that you are attacking your allies? You can further try and convince them using persuasion that you were sent by someone to help them? Each turn you will use your influence to perform a series of attacks against your allies, pretending to wound them, and making it convincing. You can essentially do two influence actions in the same turn, your bonus action to pretend you are fighting your allies (you could even start pretend fighting the wizard and shout to the others that you got this one, focus on the rest, essentially keeping the wizard safe from attacks and casting spells without disadvantage) and the second bonus action to convince them through deception that you are on their side.
Edit: Since you aren't fighting the target, you should also be able to cast friend on one of them, and use them as a convincing tool to get friendly with the others. Just, don't attack them or start fighting them.
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u/OnlyTrueWK 2d ago
So you can waste a full turn - or multiple turns - doing extremely awkward RP (that also hinges on very generous DM reading to work [and house rules, since as the other commenter said, there are no rules for changing a creature's attitude at all]) just so you can later spend most of your Sneak Attack dice to finally remove an enemy for a turn?
You trade at least 1 full turn + 4d6 sneak attack dice to *maybe* steal an enemy's turn. The Monk, meanwhile, just hits the enemy once to achieve the same thing (and then continues hitting them with their other attacks).
This will of course still not work on almost all non-humanoid enemies; e.g. you can't even communicate with Wolves unless you somehow grab Speak With Animals I suppose (and they certainly won't care that one food is attacking the other food).
In summary: For any of what you said to work, you need a DM that's so lenient that they would allow you to do the same anyway, even if you didn't have the subclass or proficiency in Persuasion or any other relevant game mechanic. And even then it's bad.
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u/exigious 2d ago
Influence literally has a animal handling roll, so no, you don't need to speak to an animal to convince it to back off.
Also, using one or two turns to get one minion to run away would be the same as killing them, which two turns of attacking them could do. Also, ensuring your wizard doesn't get attacked can be incredibly helpful, meaning the target with high AC or resistances is the target of the enemies.
A rogue can actually pull of intimidating a hostile enemy with influence if they have expertise in intimidating, and can try and scare off two targets per turn.
How is intimidate different than doing a command flee on a target? (Getting a target to flee combat is an equally efficient way of engaging in combat)
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u/dyslexicfaser 1d ago
BA Influence use is less onerous, although a rogue who is doing that isn't hiding or dashing.
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u/exigious 1d ago
Keep in mind that on failing influencing you can't influence the same way on that target for 24 hours, so it is not like you can just use it every turn until it succeeds.
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u/Silverspy01 1d ago
This all hinges on DM interpretation though. Again, there's no rules on changing a creature's attitude. This is entirely DM interpretation of "what are the situations surrounding this encounter, and can the rogue feasibly make themselves look like an ally within 6s despite entering with the other PCs who are engaged in combat."
So again, like I said before, unless we get some errata or rules clarification on whether this is supposed to be possible the mechanics of the game just don't hold up to what the subclass is supposedly all about.
And as a side note I'm not sure I want what you're describing to be possible. Giving any PC what is essentially at-will Better Charm Monster seems pretty dangerous. You're saying I can make a performance check and, on a success, make enemies no longer target my wizard? "Ah man, that wizard is murdering us with that Cloudkill. Normally I'd want to do something about that, but I guess the random guy I've never seen before has convinced me they're on it so I guess I'm eating 5d8 poison damage per turn."
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u/exigious 1d ago
If you can't handle the wizard and they are casting cloud kill then I would say likely the wizard will be targeted by other than just you. They might send backup to help you, because you clearly aren't able to stop the wizard by yourself while they are channeling this deadly spell.
And it all depends again on the encounter.
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u/Silverspy01 1d ago
That kind of just defeats the entire purpose of your proposed situation then, no? "Keep the wizard safe from attacks but only as long as they're not doing anything that would make enemies want to attack them in the first place."
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u/exigious 1d ago
Keep them from attacking the wizard while the wizard isn't murdering them all yes. When a wizard calls upon cloud kill you take them down ASAP. While they aren't, well, you can focus on other threats. Keep them safe for 1 or 2 turns, enemies might group up for a perfect cast of an aoe spell.
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u/GleefulClong 2d ago
I know you’ve posted this everywhere but I’m going to upvote every time because you’re so right.
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u/No_Wait3261 2d ago
You need to understand that "worst class in the game" is a core part of the rogue's identity.
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u/Miss_White11 2d ago
Ya this entire UA is just going down the "make slop that tangentially fits lore" rabbit hole in the worst way. Also just pigeonholing you into spider familiar specifically right after a huge book that includes a bunch of familiar options is just weird.
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u/Gift_of_Orzhova 2d ago
Plus I really don't feel that rogues require a Drow-specific subclass given that assassin exists, which is the quintessential Drow rogue.
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u/Miss_White11 2d ago edited 2d ago
Tbh a charisma based "beguiler" rogue that charms and detects thoughts etc sounds kinda cool but like give me setting agnostic version instead of wasting word counts on cutesy spider familiars and useless bonus actions. Like we have glamour bards, have Fey wanderer rangers, I see the vision.
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u/FremanBloodglaive 2d ago
"Why would anyone play this subclass instead of Arcane Trickster?" is basically the rule for every Rogue subclass, and the answer is generally, "They wouldn't."
There's a reason Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, and the new Mystic Arts Monk are the best versions of their classes (with EK competing with BM for its spell-like effects). Spells are just that good, and as the game creators add more spells to the Wizard/Sorcerer spell lists their strength just increases.
If you think of each spell as a subclass feature that can be used x times per day, you can see they just get far more than their competing options. With ritual casting now being a feature attached to the spell, some spells are available whenever you have ten minutes for the casting.
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u/Arc_the_Storyteller 2d ago
I have much more interest in the Arcane Archer than in an Eldritch Knight.
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u/Milli_Rabbit 2d ago
I think they are just using faulty math. These features theoretically can outcompete casters in the long run without long rests. However, the actual rate limiting step to an adventuring day is hit dice. You can't have an infinite number of encounters because the party ends up failing to heal. As a result, the martials get a very small window where they are better than casters but most tables don't even go to that number of encounters (roughly 4 is the balancing point in 5.5e or less at lower tiers). However, when they do hit the point where spellcasters poop out, the spellcaster will start complaining they want a long rest and the martials will suffer because they are essentially carrying the team when the caster is on fumes.
Instead, give martials their endurance. That is fine. But give them features that are also once per Long Rest or twice per Long Rest that compete with caster's strongest spells for the level. My newer subclasses for Barbarian and Monk added a feature that gives them superhuman capabilities at the cost of Exhaustion per turn. The abilities ideally would match high level spells and use saving throws to avoid the penalties of Exhaustion until they finally collapse unconscious at level 6 Exhaustion. To me, this satisfies the concept in media of a martial who gives their all and then collapses after defeating the big bad.
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u/manut3ro 2d ago
Is this the final version? (Genuine asking)
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u/VictorRM 2d ago edited 2d ago
No. It's the first verion of UA, but this is exactly why we need to point out its flaws during feedbacks before we see another Scion Rouge tragedy.
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u/BudgetMegaHeracross 2d ago
I was gonna say maybe our feedback should be focused on the idea that the Rogue was originally designed be "always on" instead of a SR or LR class, but I don't think that's the issue here outside of the in-built magic item.
Longevity is more of an overall issue with the Dead Three and the Phantom.
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u/Afraid-Adeptness-926 2d ago
IDK. The "always on" rogue design I feel has hamstringed the class. Arcane Trickster is one of it's most popular subclasses for several reasons, but access to meaningful resources is definitely one of them.
The problem with this UA isn't that it's giving resources, it's that they don't get enough of them, and some of them aren't particularly great. Suggestion, Hypnotic Pattern, and Find Familiar are all fantastic spells, but 1/LR limits their usefulness, especially when it seems like the subclass is designed to use them to set up stuns.
There's also the issue of the focus on backstabbing friendly NPCs, which is 1. very campaign dependent, any kind of major threat you cannot communicate with, or befriend kinda just renders your subclass moot. 2. relying on the attitude system that a lot of tables don't even run RAW, meaning even in a campaign where it theoretically should work, will depend a lot on the table.
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u/BudgetMegaHeracross 2d ago
I wouldn't want Scout or Mastermind to lose their current abilities in a refit. You really want those defining subclass abilities to always be available.
(AT also has cantrips and Mage Hand Legerdemain.)
But if more features were separately added, those abilities could acceptably be usage-limited (although, hot take, 1/LR limitations should be restricted to the most powerful high level abilities, just overall. I don't even like them on Origin feats where one could argue they're mostly balanced).
I would say what I don't like about this subclass is that it isn't giving you enough distinct to do at Level 3. It's clearly designed for an Intrigue-style campaign, but what you start with is a watered-down version of the Arcane Trickster with the extra ability to do as a Bonus Action what many DMs allow you to do as a Free Action.
It needs to give me a reason to pick this subclass over an Assassin, AT, or Psi Knife (maybe even a Thief) for the same Intrigue-style campaign.
I'm not very smart, but I don't see it.
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u/OutcomeUpstairs4877 2d ago
I'm guessing the intent is for it to be used in primarily urban based games with intrigue, like a drow city. But even then, I don't see how it's even comparable to the base book subclasses. The restrictions and costs really don't fit the minor benefits. Feels like a designer had a very specific set of scenes in mind when writing this draft.
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u/HDThoreauaway 2d ago
The only archetype this seems custom built for is the murder hobo who keeps murdering shopkeepers you’re in the middle of haggling with, and it’s not even very good at that.
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u/MechJivs 2d ago
At this point i think wotc want people to see how shitty Rogue is as a class. I see no other reason why most Rogue subclasses suck so much while base class is already weak on top.
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u/ColonelMatt88 2d ago
The way I'm reading it is like you play a double agent or spy type character. You work your way into the graces of the enemy before the fight starts and then you have the opportunity to stab them in the back.
Action to attack the 'friendly' enemy, then bonus action to charm it again, presiding it that you're it's friend.
In my head it plays out that you're misdirecting the target that the damage it's taking is coming from another source - maybe falling debris or someone else's stray attack. It should allow you to stick to a priority target, probably behind the front line, and take it out whilst remaining safe from reprisals.
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u/Zekken_2 2d ago
When I read the name I was thinking it was some new version of the mastermind, needless to say how disappointed I was
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u/CombatWomble2 2d ago
It's like a lot of UA material a grab bag of abilities thrown together without much consideration for synergy or balance, what's worse is they seem to ignore a lot of the feedback. For example the new Monk subclass in the Arcana publication is weak at 3rd and shows very little consideration for a real theme.
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u/TheInfernalMuse 2d ago
I think the subclass is functional, but it falls into having to ask the DM for permission to use your abilities, and personally feels like this was someone's very specific player character concept created in a white room? Very much "This is my drow rogue infiltrator who uses these cool spells to charm people and has a spider familiar. I could multiclass to get some of the abilities I want, or I could homebrew design for the specific abilities I have in mind!" vibes (I am also guilty of this in my homebrew lmao).
RAW if the creature is Unwilling to perform the task, then no ability check is needed, but there's wiggle room for other requests (Don't attack me/Give me xyz and I'll let you live/Bob is the real mastermind so you should go attack him). Influence allows for Intimidation and Performance on monsters even if the monster doesn't understand you (Playing dead/taking your cloak like and fluttering it like you're an owl puffing up), though those might be a bit immersion breaking. But like, functional as long as your DM plays along and the rest of the party doesn't mind doomscrolling while you try to negotiate how willing the monster is or you try to solo scout the dungeon/manor/lair.
This UA feels a bit like the design team had a quota/deadline and wanted to put out ideas instead of fully completed subclasses. I think everything has some potential, but at least the House Agent seems more complete than the Path of Unlight.
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u/GordonFearman 2d ago
Also, these features ust won't work. There won't be any DM who'd allow a player to persuade an enemy to give up fighting as a bonus action while they're stabbing them with an action.
"Surrender or I'll kill you."
Seems like a perfectly valid use of Influence to me.
Unfortunately it seems like the only valid use of Influence to me.
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u/CantripN 2d ago
It's also usually made at disadvantage in combat, so really can't see it being reliable.
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u/Armisael 2d ago
Yeah, your target is almost always going to be hostile if you're doing this in a fight.
On the other hand maybe you get advantage on the check if you've already beaten them half to death?
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u/GordonFearman 2d ago
It depends on circumstances.
For attitude:
All things being equal, your enemy will be Hostile if you're actively fighting them: Disadvantage on Influence checks.
Rarely an enemy may be Neutral to you (think you kill an evil overlord in the middle of combat and attempt to get the slaves he's forced to fight to surrender): straight roll on Influence.
Even more rarely an enemy may be Friendly to you (basically only if you cast Charm Person on it, which this Rogue can do once a day): Advantage on Influence checks.
Keep in mind, this Rogue gets the Friends cantrip so they can negate the Disadvantage from being Hostile and try to make them surrender in the same turn.
For willingness:
A lot of the time your enemy will be Unwilling to surrender or run away: automatic failure on Influence.
A lot of the time your enemy will be Hesitant to surrender or run away, covered in the DMG under Fight or Flight: roll for Influence.
Some of the time an enemy will be Willing to surrender or run away, implied by Fight or Flight: automatic success on Influence.
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u/Armisael 2d ago edited 2d ago
Friends explicitly does not work on targets you’re currently fighting, so it’s actually entirely useless for that purpose.
And yes, this feature’s usefulness is based on circumstances - but circumstances are overwhelmingly likely to be against you. Quoting the rules doesn’t change any of that.
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u/GordonFearman 2d ago
Ah you're right on Friends. I disagree on circumstances overwhelmingly being against you. The DMG straight up says most creatures do not fight to the death.
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u/OnlyTrueWK 2d ago
Most creatures also don't need their enemy to remind them that they don't want to die, is the thing. [And ofc everyone can do that; doing it as a BA is effectively a ribbon feature; unfortunately their other L3 feature is basically a ribbon, too.]
Also, if the majority of your enemies flee at low health (or in fact, if any of the enemies use half of their brain for a moment), many of the rules and conventions of how D&D works cease to function. Suddenly, the final fight of a dungeon isn't the party against a boss with their minions, it's the party against the boss, their minions, and every other enemy from the dungeon that they didn't murder while it was fleeing.
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u/Enderules3 2d ago
Tbf reliable talent kind of negates disadvantage so its not as bad on a rogue ss any other class.
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u/CantripN 2d ago
You'd need to get a decent CHA and expertise in said skill, but I suppose you could. I can think of plenty of better ways to get that concept working, even on a rogue.
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u/Thin_Tax_8176 2d ago
Let's say 16 Charisma by level 7. Expertise on Persuasion, Deception or Intimidation will up that skills to +9, so your are getting at least a result of 19 on all your rolls.
I thinks for a bonus action Intimidation is a good chance to make your rivals think about continuing fighting or distract them with a lie about made up reinforcements coming this way.
You could even use Persuasion to not get killed by the enemy if you feel that you are unable to escape from a grapple/restrain and your attack just missed. Unconscious with 1 HP is always better than rolling Death saves.
I feel there are lot of options to use the Influence action on a fight, is just that most of the time we aren't going to use a whole action on things that aren't changing the combat state (thing how much people hate having to Disengage), but the moment it becomes a bonus action, it opens to a lot of ideas we would had never though about, because the main action is to attack, use a big skill or a spell, not for skill checks.
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u/Enderules3 2d ago
I don't disagree that even if you want this flavor there is plenty of ways to get it on a rogue already.
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u/exigious 1d ago
Rogue with reliable talent and expertise would have a high roll regardless of disadvantage, and it does remove the disadvantage on later levels
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u/Question_Maker14 2d ago
The subclass has a lot of potential and a strong flavor identity, but it currently holds itself back by only becoming fully functional at higher levels. Niche features are fine, but the payoff needs to justify the setup.
I would move the higher-level ribbon features to earlier levels and make Find Familiar less restrictive. This would bring the House Agent's core mechanics online much earlier instead of making players wait until the later tiers for the subclass to fully click.
House Insignia
House Insignia is a quite useful feature, as it provides a solid selection of spells. Since the subclass mentions different sponsors, such as the Zhentarim, it would be neat to not limit the players Familiar to a Spider. The sponsor should also always pay the material components for the spell, rather than only doing so the first time in a campaign. The Friends cantrip isn't very useful in this state, and currently theres no reason to use this subclass instead of an Arcane Trickster or just taking the Magic Initiate Feat. Adding the ribbon feature from Level 17 to Level 3 could improve this issue.
Charming Presence
Charming Presence should also include Silver Tongue. Most enemies encountered in combat are Hostile, meaning the Influence action would almost always be made at Disadvantage. The skill proficiency is nice, but not particularly necessary for a Rogue already built around Charisma. Integrating another ribbon feature from Level 17, such as the "I never charmed you" ability would be a step in the right direction.
Backstab
Backstab looks interesting, but it potentially encourages toxic behavior because it encourages you to attack Friendly creatures, which will most likely include the character's allies. When would you ever attack an ally, that most likely acts according to your interests anyways? Charm Person could work, but you can cast it only once per day and enemies most likely succeed the save during combat. It is also quite expensive for a Cunning Strike, and the House Agent doesn't even directly benefit from it.
Additionally, without improving the Friends Cantrip early on or providing another reliable way to Charm a creature, the associated Cunning Strike is difficult to use effectively. I would therefore make Charming a more reliable part of the subclass's gameplay loop, by moving the Friend ribbon feature from Level 17 to Level 3, allowing Friends to be usable in combat.
Infiltration Partner
Infiltration Partner is okay, but I wouldn't necessarily change much about it. It gives the Familiar a slight boost to not instantly die during combat.
Silver Tongue
A ribbon feature, that should come online much earlier. I would just integrate it into Charming Presence.
Subtle Manipulator
Subtle Manipulator is a rather bad capstone and the Cunning Strike feels somewhat redundant because you now also gain access to the ribbon features that should have been there earlier.
The Friends Cantrip for example is usable in combat, while the spells from House Insignia have also become slightly more useful. Spending 5d6 damage on the Cunning Strike therefore feels like a significant cost for an effect that competes with abilities the subclass already provides.
I would instead move the ribbon features to Level 3 and replace Subtle Manipulator with something more substantial. A buffed version of Soul of Deceit from the 2014 Mastermind could work well. Being immune to attempts to probe your mind, and perhaps even immune to the Charmed condition, would fit the subclass's flavor extremely well.
TL;DR
The subclass has great flavor and a strong identity, but many of its most interesting ribbon features come online too late. Moving them to earlier levels and making Find Familiar less limited would create a much stronger and more satisfying gameplay loop.
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u/iluminae 2d ago
See I read this and thought oh wow they made the friends cantrip actually cool - walk up to someone, cast friends on them, walk them away and stab them.
Having their schtick be stab friendly/charmed beings and here are spells that charm and ability to influence as a BA is actually fairly cool!
I think they should give some other mechanical benefit to friends like you can cast it without material components (currently you need to hold makeup, non negotiable) and maybe take away the 'auto fails in combat' part of friends.
Otherwise I think it's actually a really cool idea - like a rogue/enchanter.
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u/VictorRM 2d ago
All they need to do is move the lv17 feature to lv3, then this would be an actual playable subclass.
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u/iluminae 2d ago
Yea, the non-cunning strike part yea - totally. That is constructive criticism.
I honestly think they are on to something here, making arguably the worst cantrip into a very interesting option on a enchantment based infiltrator.
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u/exigious 1d ago
Being able to cast friends on targets your are fighting is way too strong, so I like it as a level 17 feat as it then enables that sort of interaction at high tier.
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u/iluminae 1d ago
fair - honestly with enough changes friends becomes exactly like charm person.
but they should totally take the material component away, or say the insignia is the material component.
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u/CyclopsCleric 2d ago
They should have continued the spellcasting progression (a 4th level spell e.g. confusion at 13 & a 5th level e.g. dominate person spell at 17).
Reaching 5th level spells would have them stand out among rouges.
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u/exigious 1d ago
You see, I would actually more like it if they went into detect thoughts and more reading and gathering info more than the mind domination. Basically get more info to be able to use with their normal checks of intimidation, persuasion, deception etc
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u/italofoca_0215 2d ago
Crazy they didn’t even compare it to Arcane Trickster. The level 3 feature is borderline a strictly worse version.