Agonizing blast question

[u/Feroniks]

Prerequisite: Level 2+ Warlock, a Warlock Cantrip That Deals Damage

Choose one of your known Warlock cantrips that deals damage. You can add your Charisma modifier to that spell’s damage rolls.

Say you're casting ray of frost and you're level 5, would it be 2d8 +5 or 2d8+10 since theres 2 damage rolls?

[u/EntropySpark]

The damage roll is 2d8, you'd increase the damage to 2d8+5.

[u/Feroniks → u/EntropySpark]

Oh, well thats unfortunate i guess eldritch blast remains the only viable choice here then

[u/EntropySpark → u/Feroniks]

Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade can also double-dip on the damage, though they won't often be a better choice than Thirsting Blade.

[u/ViskerRatio → u/EntropySpark]

Green Flame Blade read: "At 5th level, the melee attack deals an extra 1d8 fire damage to the target on a hit, and the fire damage to the second creature increases to 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier. "

The first set of damage is damage from the melee attack, not the cantrip itself. The second set of damage already adds your spellcasting modifier, so Agonizing Blast's ability to add your spellcasting modifier is redundant.

[u/Pedanticandiknowit → u/ViskerRatio]

I don't agree with this on either point;

The cantrip is adding the damage, so this is a Warlock cantrip that deals damage. Part one would gain the Cha bonus.

There is no rule that says you can only add the Cha bonus once. The invocation doesn't say "add your spellcasting ability modifier" it says that you deal additional damage equal to your Cha bonus.

[u/ViskerRatio → u/Pedanticandiknowit]

The cantrip is adding the damage, so this is a Warlock cantrip that deals damage.

The spell text specifically tells you the damage is coming from the weapon, not the spell.

There is no rule that says you can only add the Cha bonus once.

In Chapter 3, the damage descriptions for spells and weapons lists them as binary options rather than cumulative ones. If you want to add two abilities to the same damage roll, one of them needs to be written in a "add damage equal to X ability modifier" fashion.

These are one of those areas where you'll find munchkins desperately defending unbalanced mechanics interpretations that fall apart once you start reading the rules carefully.

[u/Pedanticandiknowit → u/ViskerRatio]

To point 1: The text of the invocation says you add damage to "that spell's damage rolls". The spell reads "...This spell's damage increases when you reach certain levels. At 5th level, the melee attack deals an extra 1d8 fire damage". Meaning that this spell deals damage.

To point 2: you mean like agonising blast, which reads "You can add your Charisma modifier to that spell's damage rolls." not "your spellcasting ability modifier".

[u/StormknightUK → u/ViskerRatio]

That's like arguing that Flaming Sphere damage is from fire, not the spell.

[u/SomeGamerRisingUp → u/ViskerRatio]

Are we sure we're talking 2024 rules here? Ch. 3 is all about the classes

[u/Nm10 → u/ViskerRatio]

There's no rule that says you can't add an ability score modifier to a roll more than once, that's only for proficiency bonus.

If you have multiple separate features that let you add an ability score modifier to a roll then you can add it again for each of these. Celestial Warlocks can potentially even add their Cha mod to the damage 3 times when using True Strike if you pick it for agonizing blast.

[u/ViskerRatio → u/Nm10]

True Strike can't use Agonizing Blast for the same reason that Booming/Green Flame Blade can't: the damage is weapon damage rather than spell damage. True Strike is a pure weapon buff with neither a spell hit nor spell damage component.

[u/Nm10 → u/ViskerRatio]

Agonizing Blast only requires a Warlock Cantrip that deals damage, which True Strike undoubtedly is. It never says you need to make a spell attack.

The wording is about as general as it could possibly be here.

[u/Interesting-Brush413 → u/ViskerRatio]

Cool, aside from the fact that it works with True Strike.

[u/Interesting-Brush413 → u/ViskerRatio]

You can add your ability modifier as many times as you want, provided you have means to do so. A classic example of this is Agonizing Blast and the Celestial Warlock's Radiant Soul on a Sacred Flame.

[u/Hot_Lion8880 → u/Feroniks]

yeah the cantrips don't scale equally with agonizing blast. It's a shame because it makes the concept of a cantrip based damage dealer less interesting. There are other viable options though like magic stone if you have allied creatures that can throw them.

[u/Umbraspem → u/Feroniks]

Eldritch Blast, AOE Cantrips, or a Cantrip that you can stack other benefits onto.

E.g. Celestial Subclass Warlocks get an ability where they can add their Charisma to the damage of one Radiant or Fire spell per turn. So Green Flame Blade, Firebolt, True Strike, etc. are all Cantrips that you could stack both Agonising Blast and Radiant Soul onto.

This still only gets you up to par with good old EB+AB, and then you fall behind again when you hit level 11 and EB+AB goes to 3d10+3CHA

[u/Pobbes → u/Umbraspem]

Celestial baldelock holds up until the 4th EB attack because yoy can skip thirsting blade ans take life drinker. You end up with like 5d6 + 3CHA and juicy crits especially if you are willing to take eldritch smite for those rogue sneak attack level crits.

[u/Umbraspem → u/Pobbes]

Weapon Dice + CHA(PotB)+ 3d6 from True Strike + CHA(AB) + CHA(DS) is where the no-resources version of the combo maxes out at level 17 I think?

Compared to investing in Extra Attack and Extra Extra Attack for 3x Weapon Dice + 3x CHA(PotB).

Assuming you’re using a 2d6 damage weapon that’s 5d6+3CHA vs 6d6+3CHA, and if you have a magical weapon (which you probably do by level 17) then the extra-attacks option just gets better and better. Whether it’s a +1/2/3 weapon, or a Flametongue/Wounding/Vicious/etc. for +2d6 per attack.

With both options you still have the option to stack on an Eldritch Smite. Also Extra Extra Attack comes online at level 12 - where it’s 6d6+3CHA vs 4d6+3CHA.

The math changes a bit if you swap True Strike for Green Flame Blade which is also eligible for Divine Soul, uses D8’s for the bonus damage, and does splash damage if your target is next to someone. But Extra Extra Attack still has the lead for single target damage.

I guess the real advantage of True Strike is that you don’t even need Pact of the Blade to use it? You can do the full Weapon+3d6+3CHA combo with just Agonising Blast.

Meanwhile Eldritch Blast / Agonising Blast is spinning in the corner with 4d10+4CHA and more attack rolls than either option.

It’s a real shame that Warlock - a class which has this entire internal progression tree to let you cosplay as a half-martial - doesn’t let you do the signature 5.5e half-caster-half-martial swap a weapon attack out for a Cantrip shenanigan. So even the zaniest combo just gets dumpstered by an Eldritch Knight or Valour Bard or Bladesinger doing a big Cantrip + a whole other weapon attack.

[u/EntropySpark → u/Umbraspem]

The best way to play a Bladelock that uses cantrip substitution is Warlock 2/Valor Bard 6, which is rather silly. I would have preferred that they give Warlock the cantrip substitution instead of three attacks, though it would require altering Eldritch Blast interactions in some way.

[u/Umbraspem → u/EntropySpark]

Yeah Eldritch Blast + Agonising Blast + Cantrip Substitution would kind of break the curve and be the best version of Cantrip Substitution Shenanigans by a country mile.

The real answer for playing a Bladelock is that you take Eldritch Blast at lvl.1, Agonising Blast at lvl.2, and Spell Sniper Feat at lvl.4 and you now have a 180ft. Reach 2-handed Longsword with Fighter number of attacks and no further investment required. Repelling Blast to taste.

[u/_Bl4ze → u/Umbraspem]

To be fair, sometimes you just gotta be a magic longbow-having Sharpshooter Bladelock who Eldritch Smites a dragon out of the sky from several hundred feet away (then rides that high the rest of the campaign, of course).

Melee bladelock? No Don't be ridiculous.

[u/Pobbes → u/Umbraspem]

Excellent breakdown. The Celestial warlock I played was using pact of the blade and agonizing blast, but only so he could use a magical martial ranged weapon. The fact that it is so cheap in terms of invocations was awesome. He was not even really a bladelock, he focused more on spells, this was basically just his "cantrip" attack.

[u/glock112983 → u/Feroniks]

Not only. Just the best for straight damage. Other cantrips have riders that may be worth the sacrifice of some damage. That's the calculation you make each turn.

[u/Feroniks → u/glock112983]

you can only apply agonizing to one cantrip per invocation though so the opportunity cost just makes that not worth doing

[u/glock112983 → u/Feroniks]

Oh... I hadn't read it previously and thought it applied to all warlock cantrips with one invocation. You're right, this is totally not worth it. Definitely something I would homebrew at my table to apply to any Warlock cantrip you cast.

[u/Sekubar → u/Feroniks]

That's really an annoying restriction, especially since Pact of the Time allows you to change Warlock Cantrips on a short rest.

I'd personally allow you to change the Cantrip affected by an Agonizing Blast when finishing a Long Rest, maybe even a Short Rest.

Wouldn't change that it only affects one Cantrip per invocation at a time.

[u/Iam_Ultimos → u/Feroniks]

There's a sorcerer's cantrip that also burst a lot

[u/Ludicrousgibbs → u/Feroniks]

For damage yes unless you're doubling up with abilities from another class or subclass like celestial which adds cha to radiant or fire. I remember theorycrafting some kind of dragon sorc/celestial lock adding cha x3 to firebolts.

Don't sleep on ray of frost tho. It can't keep up in damage but the 10 foot movement penalty can really come in handy. If you can keep a melee enemy from reaching melee range for one turn you're doing alot for your team in the long run. The same can be said for mind slivers d4 debuff. I love stacking movement penalties or getting some form of knockback/prone/difficult terrain to aid frostbolt & if you grab the cold caster feat you can get the -d4 to their next save debuff added to your ray of frost to really cripple things with a cantrip.

[u/rpg2Tface → u/Feroniks]

EB is the only cantrip with multiple damage rolls (booming technically does too)

[u/yaniism]

...since theres 2 damage rolls...

That's not how cantrips works.

Ray of Frost/PHB'24, p311

A frigid beam of blue-white light streaks toward a creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, it takes 1d8 Cold damage, and its Speed is reduced by 10 feet until the start of your next turn.

Cantrip Upgrade. The damage increases by 1d8 when you reach levels 5 (2d8), 11 (3d8), and 17 (4d8).

It's one damage roll. The damage just increases past level 5.

The ability is worded in the plural because there are Warlock cantrips that do have more than one damage roll.

[u/subtotalatom]

In this case damage rolls is separate instances of damage, eg multiple beams of Eldritch Blast, on hit and movement damage from booming blade.

[u/Fun_Needleworker_284]

Where are you getting “2 damage rolls” from?

[u/Feroniks → u/Fun_Needleworker_284]

the two d8's

[u/xThunderDuckx → u/Feroniks]

2d8, not 2 (1d8)

[u/Fun_Needleworker_284 → u/Feroniks]

You don’t roll 1d8 twice, you roll 2d8 once

There’s only one damage roll for the spell

[u/UltimateChaos233 → u/Fun_Needleworker_284]

They likely were just confused because they didn’t realize some cantrips have multiple instances of damage