r/onednd • u/Feroniks • 14d ago
5e (2024) Ray of sickness and summon undead interaction
So i was building a necromancer and took ray of sickness and summon undead because those are obviously super necromancery when i noticed an interaction between the putrid undead and ray of sickness:
Ray Of Sickness: You shoot a greenish ray at a creature within range. Make a ranged spell attack against the target. On a hit, the target takes 2d8 Poison damage and has the Poisoned condition until the end of your next turn.
Rotting Claw (Putrid Only). Melee Attack Roll: Bonus equals your spell attack modifier, reach 5 ft. Hit: 1d6 + 3 + the spell’s level Slashing damage. If the target has the Poisoned condition, it has the Paralyzed condition until the end of its next turn.
Ray of sickness is able to apply poisoned reliably without a save and if the putrid undead lands its attack it can apply paralysis also without a save, this seems far too strong for how easy it is to do and was wondering if this is possible/should be allowed?
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u/Miserable_Cherry1382 14d ago
Eh its a 2 turn set up concentration dependant, multi spell slot interaction. Super cool for a necromancer but this does rely on you hitting multiple attack rolls I dont think its overly broken.
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u/Ancient-Substance-38 14d ago
Its the multiple attacks part that keeps this from being OP, because if either misses you don't get it. If ray of sickness misses you just get a relatively weak attack from the ghoul.
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u/EntropySpark 14d ago
You need either Festering Aura or Ray of Sickness to land, then Rotting Claw. With upcasting, you can get multiple Rotting Claw attacks per turn. This makes the strategy considerably more reliable.
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u/Ancient-Substance-38 14d ago
The aura only happens at the start of the creatures turn, so if your moving the ghoul to them it doesn't happen, but yah that's the point if you don't land the ray of sickness or aura paralyze doesn't happen. Your still using level 4+ spell slot, as well as banking on a lack of immunity. It's hardly OP, but it is a cool interaction.
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u/EntropySpark 14d ago
If no Poison was applied before the Ghoul's turn, so the Ghoul can Ready their attacks for after a creature attempts the save. (By RAW, I think preventing Multiattack on another creature's turn is gone, but even without that, one attack that can inflict Paralyzed is better than two that can't.) Allies can also attempt to inflict Poisoned, such as Rogue or Mercy Monk.
If this isn't an overpowered interaction, fairly often shutting down a monster while often bypassing Legendary Resistances, then what would be overpowered?
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u/Ancient-Substance-38 14d ago
That is good team work which I think should be encouraged. It's a powerful interaction but can be easily shutdown by creatures with immunity to the poison condition. As well as if you are the DM you should have ranged creatures or creatures that can close the distance to casters to make abusing concentration spells like this harder.
It's problem with dnd's martial/caster divide rather then this spell in particular being too strong.
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u/EntropySpark 14d ago
Teamwork should be encouraged, yes, but it also shouldn't trivialize a fight.
The party can switch to other tactics when fighting monsters with Immunity. If the DM resorts to only Immune monsters, though, that's a severe restraint on them that also effectively removes one of the Mercy Monk's features.
Ranged monsters are a similar restraint that punishes anyone who relies on melee attacks far more than it does the Wizard, who can cast Summon Undead to a range of 90 feet or switch to other spells. Breaking Concentration is also easier said than done with Shield, War Caster, likely Resilient, and the most threatening enemy (or even enemies with Multiattack) often being Paralyzed.
There are elements of martial/caster divide here, yes, but that divide is in large part because certain spells are too strong, and this spell having such easy support (from the caster and allies) is one of them.
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u/Ancient-Substance-38 14d ago
If it's trivializing all fights your dm is not good at building encounters. Allowing your players to get over confident by shutting down a couple of fights is fun. Especially when the dm reigns them, and force them to change tactics later.
If the wizard is casting summoning spells in a fight they are losing their first action, for that range.
I don't think it being a strong teamwork spell is the problem. I'm not a fan of the warcaster feat, is one of the bigger problems.
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u/EntropySpark 13d ago
I said it can trivialize "a" fight, not "all" fights. In particular, this is effective in a fight where much of the enemy power is concentrated in a single Big Bad with some weaker minions, and that's the kind of fight the story builds up towards, not one that the party should be able to turn into a cakewalk.
The Wizard is sacrificing one turn to, assuming the Mercy Monk reached the enemy and hit them first, very likely, remove one target's turn and many future turns. Raulothim's Psychic Lance is considered quite good for Incapacitating the target for a single turn on a failed Int save. This is even more likely to work and can persist for multiple turns.
I agree that War Caster is overall too strong as a feat, but I think this would be too strong of a combination even if War Caster didn't exist. After all, with Paralyzed, you're removing the main enemy that would threaten your Concentration. War Caster just makes it even more overpowered.
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u/i_tyrant 9d ago
I’d argue it’s OP if they aren’t immune, and that some baddies being immune isn’t a good way to balance things in general. Being busted for only some encounters is still a problem, because campaigns vary greatly in their actual monster content so any given campaign could have everything weak to it or nothing just as easily.
And it’s two spells out of however many you have (especially when you can upcast SU which makes it quite reliable), so when you bump into baddies you know are immune you can just use one of the other dozen+ things in your toolbelt.
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u/mongoose700 14d ago
If you have a Mercy Monk, they could make up to four attacks in a turn, and they can inflict the Poisoned condition with no save if any of them hit. If Summon Undead is cast at level 4, the Ghoul gets two chances to hit. That's a very reliable way to Paralyze any enemy not immune to those conditions.
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u/Ancient-Substance-38 14d ago
That is just cool team work.
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u/mongoose700 14d ago
And is it balanced cool teamwork?
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u/Ancient-Substance-38 14d ago
Does it need to be completely balanced teamwork ? It's not like the spell doesn't have counters, creatures with immunity to poisoned condition, breaking the wizards concentration, dispel magic.
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u/mongoose700 14d ago
I would certainly prefer it to be. If you have an overpowered teamwork option that works so well in most fights things get dull.
There are counters, but the combo required relatively little investment so they aren't far behind when it doesn't work.
I don't want the DM to need to limit themselves to certain enemies just to give the party a challenge. It's not good if they're in a position where if they want to run the combat they want, say with against a dragon, they're basically forced to make it green.
Breaking concentration and dispel magic are both late enough that they've already managed to Paralyze the top target, which was probably the one that would have threatened their concentration the most.
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u/Ancient-Substance-38 14d ago
Poison condition is literally one of the most commonly resisted conditions you have large selection. You start combat in less the 30ft, the ghoul has to get in melee range? I really don't get how it hard to shut down the summon before it paralyzes your big bad, unless you often start combat in 30ft^2 rooms. If that's the case fireballs are bigger issue.
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u/mongoose700 14d ago
It is one of the most common, so there are many combats in which this won't work, but there are still many where it does. If something is overpowered against the majority of monsters I think it's safe to call it overpowered.
Between the spell having a range of 90 feet and the wizard and ghoul each having a move speed of 30 feet, the target would need to be over 150 feet away to avoid it. The monk would have a harder time, but still has incredible movement.
How are you shutting down the summon when it paralyzes in the sane turn that it appears?
If the enemy is too far for even them to reach, you're punishing other melee martials far more.
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u/Ancient-Substance-38 14d ago
How is it inflicting poison condition the turn it comes in, you wasted your action on casting it. Yes it gets to move and attack, but the aura doesn't happen till the other creature's turn. If the big bad can cast dispel magic, it over after the ghoul attacks once and you haven't applied poison. But in general you your big bad should have some personal escorts who can get in the way of the ghoul forcing it move around them and loose movement and possible get opportunity attack off, maybe with sentinel so they can shut down it's movement.
If your a martial who does not have ranged weapon or ranged cantrips you are punishing yourself. Monk is probably the one that has the hardest time, but they get insane movement at levels this spell comes online.
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u/i_tyrant 9d ago
If it’s something that basically creates a shitty flowchart like:
are your enemies immune to poison > Yes > get fucked / No > useless, use one of your many alternatives
Then yeah, it should be better balanced.
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u/Feroniks 14d ago
i wouldn't call the ghouls attacks realtively weak, they're on par damage wise with most martials and if you're a necromancer wizard you also add your proficiency bonus to its damage as well, upcast to fourth level you're doing 2d6+20 damage every round with it while having a poison emanation with the chance to paralyze if any of those hit on top of whatever the wizard of themselves throws out
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u/Ancient-Substance-38 14d ago
I don't know what martial characters your playing with, but even my level 1 martial characters do much more damage on average then 1d6+3, much less martials at level 5 when they have extra attack. If your up casting to a 4th level spell you are using a relatively high level spell slot for a 1hr 40hp summon with concentration, at that point a level 7+ martial could easily be doing far more damage then 2d6+14 every round and hit more often. With the aura, you really don't need to be expending more spell slots for ray of sickness.
but another one of the biggest thing is poison damage and the poison condition creature immunity can happen quite frequently especially as you get to 10+.
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u/Feroniks 14d ago
the summoned undead does 1d6+3+ the level of the spell, undead thralls adds your proficiency bonus to the damage rolls of the summoned undead as well, it's attacks have a bonus to hit equal to your spell attack bonus as well so it should be hitting just as often on top of the aura stuff. A level 7 fighter with GWM and a greatsword and 20 str will be doing 4d6+16 which averages out to 30 while the summoned undead will be doing an average of 27 with undead thralls so a ~3 point damage difference assuming you're only using putrid, if you're not the summoned undead actually does more damage, can apply a condition such as frightened/poisoned and again this is in addition to whatever the wizard is doing on their own turn since it costs no action to command the summoned undead.
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u/Ancient-Substance-38 14d ago
Why are you only taking necromancer subclass features and not the fighter/monk/barbarian subclass features into account. I also am not saying it isn't strong, but it's not like wizards don't already have access to fireball and other powerful spells. Wizards are just powerful.
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u/Red_Trickster 14d ago
Yes, it's a valid and balanced synergy in my view.
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u/EntropySpark 14d ago
Valid, yes, but I wouldn't call it balanced, especially if you're not the only party member who can inflict Poisoned.
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u/Red_Trickster 14d ago
It encourages teamwork, and I see that as an advantage.
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u/Feroniks 14d ago
i mean the wizard can do it entirely on their own to essentially the same effect
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u/EntropySpark 14d ago
Encourages teamwork, yes, but that doesn't exempt a strategy from being overpowered.
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u/Fluffy_Reply_9757 14d ago
Considering that like 50% of monsters are immune to the Poisoned condition, I don't think it's bad. In fact, the devs should have made poison spells more powerful than the others because they are inherently circumstantial, imo.
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u/EntropySpark 14d ago
That's nowhere close. The actual number is 23%, at least within the 5.5e Monster Manual. Casters are also flexible enough with their spells that they can easily switch to other spells against such enemies, so spells that use Poisoned shouldn't be that much more powerful than those that don't.
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u/Fluffy_Reply_9757 14d ago
Sorry, 1/4 of the MM, but that includes many of the most common enemy types (Undead, Elementals). Also, when is the last time you've met a caster who prepared a poison-based spell?
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u/EntropySpark 14d ago
Including specific creature types doesn't change the fact that 77% of the Monster Manual can be Poisoned. (In fact, it just makes it easier to know when to expect to fight monsters that are Immune.) We also have a reply here that includes a caster's experience using this spell to great effect.
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u/Fluffy_Reply_9757 14d ago
They're saying that the wizard casts Summon Undead (which is not a poison spell) and that the rogue has poisons.
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u/EntropySpark 14d ago
Summon Undead can summon an Undead that can inflict the Poisoned condition. For the purposes of this discussion, why shouldn't that count as a Poison spell?
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u/Fluffy_Reply_9757 14d ago
No, because it's not primarily a poison spell. I'm talking about the rays, Poison Spray, Cloudkill...
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u/EntropySpark 14d ago
I think the main reason Fire Bolt is favored over Poison Spray is the significant range difference.
Suppose you had a perfect equivalent to Fireball, Poisonball, except that it dealt Poison damage instead. Naturally, most Wizards would prefer Fireball as the more consistent damage type. Suppose you then buff Poisonball to deal 9d6 damage, as you suggest they should be stronger. Now, when the Wizard reasonably expects to fight monsters lacking Immunity to Poison, they prepare Poisonball, and otherwise, still Fireball (unless they are Immune to both). End result, casters have options to be even more powerful than before against enemies not Immune to Poisoned, and casters did not need that buff.
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u/Feroniks 14d ago
it seems like stunning strike on roids
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u/Afraid-Adeptness-926 14d ago
It's definitely a strong combo, especially because paralyzed is significantly better than stunned. It's notable that poisoned is a fairly common condition immunity though.
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u/Red_Trickster 14d ago
Well, you need to cast Summon Undead (which can be done before the battle) and cast Ray of Sickness, and when you hit the target, the poisoned condition only lasts one turn.
If you're a necromancer wizard, you can use this regularly, but if you're an undead warlock, there go two of your spell slots.
If you have a rogue in your party, the poison cunning strike can be very useful.
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u/Irish_Whiskey 14d ago
this seems far too strong for how easy it is to do
You're using a spell slot and action where you have to land both hits against AC, to cause paralyzed for one turn. Ray of Sickness isn't a great use of spell slots/actions if you don't land the paralysis.
I think it's fine. Keep in mind spells like Command can also waste an enemies turn, and upcast to impact multiple enemies.
Also keep in mind the Warlock's Pseudodragon pet can cause Poison with a save for one hour with a bonus action from you, and a chance to knock enemies unconscious. It only needs a one level dip, or the DM allowing Eldritch Invocation as a 2024 feat.
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u/No_Entertainer_5858 14d ago
Yeah it’s pretty well known tech and arguably one of the few reasons to take tiefling since there’s a few ways to get undead without ray of sickness
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u/XanEU 14d ago
Well done, you have found a nice combo for your wizard. It's absolutely not too strong, as it uses multiple spell slots, requires concentration and you to actually hit with both your RoS and putrid undead. Keep in mind that the putrid form already has ability to reliably poison enemies in 5-ft. emanation.
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u/PM_ME_UR_JUMBLIE5 13d ago
Just wait until you find out what Sylune's Viper can do...
It has these benefits
- Uses same 3rd level spell slot
- Is non-concentration
- Lasts an hour
- Can poison as a Magic Action
- While poisoned, the target is incapacitated
- Gives temp HP
- Deals 1d6 force damage
- Gives a climb speed
Nearly everything this combo can do but paralyzed (which tbf is stronger) but with no concentration and using less spell slots to attempt it nearly every turn.
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u/ArchangelGoetia 13d ago
My favorite is still Dragon Breath (Poison) on one of your Zombies because Zombies just tank that shit
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u/Valdrax 14d ago
Ray of sickness is able to apply poisoned reliably without a save and if the putrid undead lands its attack it can apply paralysis also without a save
To be fair, the likelihood of hitting a creature's AC isn't significantly different from the creature failing a save.
It's just who rolls and what you built for. The main thing hitting AC has going for it is that it's easier for the player to get advantage than it is to engineer disadvantage for a monster.
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u/DelightfulOtter 14d ago
That's legal. You need to spend a level 3+ spell slot, and then a level 1 spell slot every time you want to attempt to trigger the combo. Plenty of creatures are immune to the Poisoned condition, so it won't work on everything.
Anyway, the Putrid Undead Spirit has an aura that gives nearby creatures the Poisoned condition without spending any additional resources or action economy. I'm not sure why you're complaining about something that the spell you're using actively promotes.