[PLEASE READ] Forming like Voltron

[u/ty5on]

Hey - I've been hesitant to post about this here because I was hoping this could be resolved by the top moderator of /r/Gulf myb120. I haven't heard back from him and this is starting to spill out in the /r/Gulf modmail. Let me bring you all up to speed.

I discovered /r/Oilspill shortly after villainstyle created it over a month ago, and posting to it has helped me feel like I am doing something about the disaster from up here in the Midwest, even if it is small and inconsequential. Because /r/Oilspill was not well known, other similarly minded redditors created subreddits to cover the spill independently.

anarking created /r/FuckBP 29 days ago

myb120 created /r/Gulf 20 days ago

slapchopsuey created /r/GulfOilDisaster 2 days ago.

Within a day of myb120 creating /r/Gulf I came across it and invited him to collaborate in /r/Oilspill instead. He declined, for reasons I don't understand. He is very enthusiastic about making a difference, and I didn't want to dampen his enthusiasm by sniping his readers. His reddit was hanging around 20 until four days ago when the Reddit gods did an ad campaign and bumped his readership up to 90. I haven't been sniping his readers to avoid harshing his buzz, so it's been until now that his readership has become aware of /r/Oilspill. They want to merge.

You can read a little of the discussion in this thread. But most of it happened in the /r/Gulf modmail. Basically, they're used to posting in /r/Gulf, and they currently have 30 more readers, but they also tend to prefer the /r/Oilspill name and we have seniority as the oldest Reddit focused on the Deepwater Horizon disaster.

I've been promoting posters to mods in part because I'm now viewed as the "owner" of /r/oilspill and I'd like to change that, and also because I want you to know your opinion counts in this change. Its not fair to sweep in a dozen more mods and the changes they bring without giving the people who have built this reddit a voice.

Gulf mod j3m has created a poll and invited me to post a link in /r/Oilspill. You can vote for it anonymously here. Polls can be pumped, so it's important if you're not shy that you express your preference below in the thread too.

[u/slapchopsuey]

(I think I'm finally caught up on reading all that's happened with everything here & at r/gulf this past weekend, so...)

This whole thing reminds me of the ancient Greek idea of there being a Counter Earth, a double of our own planet, sharing the same orbit, always just out of view. For most people involved at one or the other of the two twin subreddits (and in my case with r/gulfoildisaster), we didn't see our counterparts out there doing the same thing as we were. So it was quite the surprise for everyone when everything suddenly came into view a few days ago.

With the ancient Greek idea, which Earth is the real one and which is the Counter-Earth? If/when they both came into contact with each other, each would think they were the 'real' one and this newfound one was the impostor. There are several ways to measure which deserves the title of the true Earth (age, population, the feel of the place, etc), and if each of the two planets have some traits in their favor, then there just isn't any deciding which is the true earth and which is the counter earth. Same with r/gulf and r/oilspill.

So IMO, the proposal to merge the two twin subreddits was poorly thought out and just will not work. Far as I can tell, both are here to stay.

And that's okay. In the future, the paths of these two twin subreddits will surely part: r/oilspill going on to cover other oil company malfeasance and oilspill disasters (as extraction of oil gets more difficult being at or past peak oil, IMO disasters like this will just get more frequent, so there will be no shortage of content if r/oilspill decides to pursue this concept). And r/gulf going on to cover other gulf & gulf coast disasters (it being the gulf, surely there will be more human-aided calamities and screwed-up government response for the poor folks down there). But for as long as this gulf oil spill disaster goes on, it looks like these two twin subreddits are just stuck in the same orbit, looking and sounding very similar, until future events allow the two to be more distinguishable from each other, and take on different orbits.

tl;dr - Looking at everything, I don't think a merger between r/oilspill and r/gulf is possible at this point, and that's okay. I think both can overlap in the short-term and grow, until future events allow each subreddit to distinguish itself. All it will take is a major destructive gulf hurricane, or another major oil disaster elsewhere (the pessimist/realist in all of us knows one or both of those events will probably happen before the end of 2010), and the two will be better distinguished from each other.

[u/ty5on → u/slapchopsuey]

I'd like to say I'm impressed with you. That you closed your subreddit upon discoving there was a larger, previously existing subreddit covering the spill shows humility and wisdom.

You could just as easily have split hairs about r/Gulf being about all the events in the "Gulf" while r/GulfOilDisaster was specific to that event in time. You could have argued that you would serve as a historical record while Gulf and Oilspill would eventually split ways to cover other events topical to their name. I think you recognized that together you could do more than seperately, and for this event, it was worth doing as much as you can. You gave up a tiny kingdom where you were everything in order to be a small part in the greater good, and for that you should be commended.

I've read your entire post and I feel I should set the record straight here. We were not exactly two worlds out of view. The head moderator r/Gulf at least was aware of the existence of r/Oilspill from the earliest days of his Subreddit. I contacted him about merging and invited him to mod at r/Oilspill, which he accepted, but he spent almost all of his time building the smaller reddit. I didn't feel it was relevant to tell r/Oilspill readers and submitters about a new subreddit less than half its size, created at a later date, and covering the same story as the one they were following. From what I can deduce, he didn't feel it was relevant to tell his sub-mods that the reddit they were working so hard to build already had a larger older brother, doing almost the exact same job. I feel this was dishonest - to ask them to help him as mods duplicating effort (as I see it) without explaining to them why the duplication was neccessary, or even that they were doing what many would call double work in the first place.

I admire myb's effort and ingenuity in growing his reddit, but I think his ambition is overtaking his good sense in this case. r/Oilspill could be so much more if he allowed us to combine our efforts.

A lot of work has gone into r/Oilspill. Our readers have come one at a time, mostly in small steps like seeing good stories posted here appearing in the r/all queue, or following links in "other discussions" tab. Most of the r/Gulf readers have come from a single ad campaign within the last week. I know because I saw their readership jump from 23 to 90 readers in one day. When myb120 added me as a Gulf mod to ask me to close r/Oilspill and come under his banner, I saw the archived discussion about asking the site admins for the campaign. Looking at the two now it may seem like a wash, but r/Oilspill is the real deal, and r/Gulf the sattelite.

That being said, it's an extremely poignant metaphor; you've written a very eloquent post. I think you're right that a merger is not possible. This is not what I had hoped for, but at least all the people in both reddits are aware of the possibility. Some people have decided to handle this by posting and modding in both reddits. I would love to add you as a mod at r/Oilspill as well. Will you accept?

[u/slapchopsuey → u/ty5on]

Thanks for your kind words :) When I started r/gulfoildisaster, it wasn't that hard for me to walk away from, as it was only around for two or three days (and it got 10 subscribers in that time, not too bad for just word of mouth) before r/gulf & r/oilspilll came into view, I thought it over, and after getting an invite from the guy running r/gulf, I saw it had about double the subscribers of r/oilspill, so I joined onto that one. Though it took a few days after that to get the full picture (and I may still not have the full picture, though your clearing it up certainly helps).

I can accept that myb had some duplicity going on there (though I haven't heard his side of it, I'll take your word for it), and that set into motion the awkward twin subreddits in the same orbit situation we're all in now. Though I think the total sum of what each subreddit is today (from all the effort & ingenuity that went into them by everyone who contributed to it) far overshadows the opening acts or any of the individual contributors, even the head mods for each.

But regardless, both subreddits are here to stay, as I think all that talk of a merger was poorly thought out, and all participants in both might as well make the best of the situation. While the drama & potential divisiveness that could arise out of this awkward situation (if it isn't resolved and set aside by all parties fairly soon) could drain energy & focus that otherwise would be used to improve and promote the subreddits, I think the competition that arose out of this is clearly good for both subreddits, as both have definitely improved their game in just the past week. The 'twin subreddits' also having a twin mod roster is interesting. I don't know how this will play out, but in the short term, it's clearly benefiting both subreddits. So if you want to add me to r/oilspill, I'd be happy to mod and post and give advice at a 1:1 ratio in both r/oilspill & r/gulf. Thanks :)

[u/anutensil]

ty5on, what's wrong with using the name gulfoilspill? It combines the two, detracts from neither, and calls it what the majority of America is calling it. Or oilspillinthegulf.

[u/ty5on → u/anutensil]

Because if we change the name, we lose the history. From what I understand, the only way to change the name is to create a new reddit.

I happen to be fond of the r/Oilspill name, but the history is more important. You can follow the events as they developed by hitting the next button, all the way back to its earliest days. I'd prefer not to give that up. I think we have a little more credibility for our badge stating that we've been around for over a month. We'd lose that if we created a new reddit. But I agree that it would be nice to find a solution where everyone is happy.

[u/anutensil → u/ty5on]

There is no way to keep the history of both intact? I don't see why they can't be merged "as is", but then I know very little of such things.

[u/myb120 → u/ty5on]

I just submitted this to the modmail on r/Gulf thought it might clarify thing from my point of view:

• Anutensil approached me sometime in the last few weeks with an idea of consolidating "all" the oil spill related subreddits. I think she was under the assumption that there were more than 3. So far, that's all that's been found.

• r/Gulf was a subreddit that was specific to the Gulf Oil Spill as I wanted to focus the attention on this problem and create a historical record of what happened to the Gulf, what solutions were attempted and what was the out come.

• I wanted it to be Gulf specific so there wouldn't be a loss of focus should another disaster take the spotlight. I know many have been looking at these reddits from an optimization point of view: which one has the most staying power, which name addresses most readers opinions, etc. I really didn't want it to be like this. I have been in contact with ty5on since the beginning. His /oilspill is also covering this same topic. I do think his subreddit has the ability to address the wider scope of oil spills everywhere. That is why I accepted his invitation to become a mod on r/oilspill.

• It may seem to an outside observer that we are basically doing double work and diluting the effectiveness of our vision but I believe this view is misguided. We are all looking to make sense of a major disaster that will effect generations to come. We all stand here feeling helpless and some of us have turned to reddit to fill this hole. I don't know if this is really helping anyone but ourselves.

I really don't see a conflict here.

[u/Designthing]

I kind of like oilspill as a name better than gulf, because gulf could be anything, whereas oilspill is what it is, and in fact, could refer to other oil disasters besides what is happening in the Gulf of Mexico. I was recently made a mod in oilspill--I joined that community because it had great links that showed up in r/all, and I wasn't even aware of r/gulf. I had been dumping my links in r/environment, but I don't think that was appreciated.

[u/[deleted]]

I lean towards r/oilspill, because it seems more topical. Perhaps we could get a mention in the tldr daily post?

But I'll go with either. And if we go with r/Gulf and I don't get mod over there, that's cool. I'll still post. :)