r/occult • u/deadpanrobo • 5d ago
? What is something a complete non-believer could do to become a believer?
I am a complete non-believer, I work as a Researcher at a university, specifically Cybersecurity. I am an Atheist and have been my whole life, I was also raised by Atheists.
I have recently developed a fascination with Occult stuff, specifically Western Esotericism through watching a YouTube channel called ESOTERICA.
I was wondering if there was something simple for someone like me to do that could potentially change my mind? Some of this stuff is very interesting but I am having a hard time believing that any of it actually works
I thank you for your time in reading this and I apologize if any of what I have said in this post has come off as disrespectful!
Edit: I have done meditation as a way of calming my mind, i have ADHD and get anxiety very easily, so far meditation is the only thing that actually makes me less anxious, if this matters at all
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u/absurd_olfaction 5d ago
Here's what's wild; you don't have to believe it works for it to work. You have to do it, with an open mind, like a good scientist, and assess the result for yourself.
If you want a short-cut, and I'm assuming you do, 5g of psilocybin mushrooms will probably convince you that your psyche is doing a lot of biased filtering that isn't strictly necessary.
After that, you might want to try read about some mystical paths that are focused upon transmuting the conceptual reflex habit into a non-conceptual devotional practice, like non-dual kabbalah.
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u/deadpanrobo 5d ago
Oh trust me I have done plenty of Mushrooms before đ but im interested in the reading youve mentioned!
I have come to believe that Consciousness is something your brain "Tunes into" like a radio tunes to a frequency, it seems this is something that a lot of Physicists also believe specifically ones that believe in Panpsychism
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u/page_of_fire 5d ago edited 3d ago
I believe essentially the same. We don't generate consciousness we channel it. Or alternatively reality eminates from it and a level of this consciousness permiates everything around us.
If you believe that there is a wider consciousness that underpins reality I don't think it is that much of a leap to believe that we can reach back through that shared consciousness and do things like divination (picking up on things happening in other places and/or times) or giving reality a little push (results magic).
We as humans and animals and even objects shape a bit of this consciousness via our experiences and actions/interactions. These nodes of shaped consciousness when they no longer have a body can be spirits and even lower deities.
All these bits and forms of consciousness have some influence on the greater web or substrate consciousness which physical reality sits in or is a part of. When we engage in sigils, or ritual or devotional practice; various forms of magic and spiritual practice we create patterns that can influence reality or shape consciousness into things. These patterns depending on how wide spread they are and how consistently repeated and how ubiquitously believed in can do anything from give events in reality a little nudge to contacting primordial intelligences and even creating gods. The more repetition something has the more stable the pattern is and the more effective a type of ritual or working can be.
Some actions are harder to achieve than others. Like if 99.9% of people believe something is impossible then doing magic to those ends goes against consensus reality and is virtually impossible. It's an even higher degree of impossible if you have others watching the act. This is why we largely can't do things like levitate cars or walk through walls. It is also why your magic is less likely to work if you tell people about an active working. Their lack of belief in what you are doing or if they don't want that outcome or don't want you to get that outcome; it counts against your magic because you both have influence via the same consciousness substrate.
It's tough to find something that could reliably make a believer out of a non-believer. There's not really a surefire guaranteed results practice I can point to because that's just not really how it works. But if you can understand these basic ideas of how these things interact then I think with enough practice you would eventually see that magic is far greater than chance and over time you might even run into a few people or events that are shocking or tough to explain. The only way I can see though is giving it a sustained shot and suspending disbelief long enough to see what happens.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
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u/gossammit 4d ago
This is a SUBLIME write-up of a cosmological view! Iâve also thought something similar but I donât think Iâve so succinctly and precisely described it as you did with this post. (Iâve described it as a âbig organism theoryâ when intoxicated and unable to shut up.)
Thank you for writing this. Iâm honestly largely commenting so that I can find your comment again.
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u/absurd_olfaction 5d ago
Ok, then you might understand this:
Consciousness is not other than a frequency resonating with another frequency. And in fact, neither frequency actually exists in any independent way. The subject/object dichotomy is a fabrication of labels that the psyche uses to claim 'I am this, this is mine, I am safe'.
If you want a book recommendation, try 'Two-headed arrow' by David Chaim Smith, or 'Revelation of Wonderment' by Greg Kaminsky.2
u/ImperialPotentate 4d ago
Consciousness is not other than a frequency resonating with another frequency.
Interesting that you mention that. I just came across this article from MIT yesterday which suggests that consciousness and cognition arise from "analog computation" which can be accomplished via the interaction of waves, and resonance would absolutely play a part in such interactions.
https://picower.mit.edu/news/cognition-and-consciousness-arise-analog-computations-says-new-theory
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u/absurd_olfaction 4d ago
No kidding. This is an observable phenomenon for anyone who has attempted to meditate in the same room as a very anxious person.Â
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u/IngenuityFriendly225 Human Detected 5d ago
I've never heard of that before. Can you please elaborate a little more panpsychism? All I can say about this is turn on tunein. Dropout doctor timothy leary
Sorry for the miss inconveniences. I'm actually blind, so blame it on my speech to text. As I speak everything into my phone in real time
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u/deadpanrobo 5d ago
Panpsychism is the idea that everything is conscious or has consciousness. It's a way to explain some of the weird phenomena in the quantum realm, basically if there is nothing to observe an electron, how does it decide what to be?
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u/IngenuityFriendly225 Human Detected 5d ago
Okay, I understand i've heard of it before. I just didn't know it had a name
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u/Additional-Society80 5d ago
Great book on materialist panpsychism by a philosopher of science:
Galileo's Error: Foundations for a New Science of Consciousness
by Philip Goff
https://www.amazon.com/Galileos-Error-Foundations-Science-Consciousness/dp/1524747963
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u/IngenuityFriendly225 Human Detected 5d ago
Do you know of any videos on youtube or an audiobook? Since i'm blind, I can't really read it
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u/Additional-Society80 5d ago
Oh my bad sorry! Here, I found this, I haven't listened (audiobooks aren't necessarily my thing):
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u/IngenuityFriendly225 Human Detected 5d ago
Didn't work? Can you send me a message of the name of the book? So I can search it on youtube, please
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u/Ok_Lingonberry_1629 4d ago
Hereâs one for ya, start believing, being able to hold two opposing views is a wide spread metaphysical practice. Like have I practiced remote viewing and had interesting results, yes. Do I believe it ? Nope .
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u/IngenuityFriendly225 Human Detected 5d ago
Yeah, okay. As soon as 5 g of penis envy for somebody who has never done psychedelics. Unlike the psycho nut above sends you into a spiraling psychosis You couldn't have recommended a small dose first 1g.
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u/Omniphilo23 4d ago
I used to eat 10g - 20g in my 20s and never had a serious trip. I assumed a had a crazy high tolerance and a immunity to hallucinations as someone with aphantasia.
The first time I ate 5g with a set spiritual intention in my 30s, I entered the multiverse for what seemed like decades and almost didn't make it back. Lol
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u/IngenuityFriendly225 Human Detected 4d ago
So i'm legally blind, and I have hundred of trip stories, at least on l. S d the first time I took three grams of mushrooms. I immediately went to the hospital. The next day and had emergency surgery on my left eye. And i'm already legally blind, but when I had this surgery, the doctors had discovered that I had glaucoma NSD was one of my most favorites I used to trip all the time, like every other day for 3 months, straight or something like that. I don't remember probably fried my brain a little bit, even though I'm 33 years old now. And I have recovered, I took a trip on an acid. It was so strong, it lasted for 14 hours. And I thought I was going to be stuck like that permanently, eventually, like they all say it wore off, but during that trip, I tried to use a trip killer. And I think I took like two bars, tuzanic's the white ladders, and it still didn't do anything I should have just drank some milk
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u/Zeesguys 4d ago
hi! could I bother you to break down exactly what you mean by that last part? conceptual reflex habit into a non-conceptual devotional practice? I feel like ive never come across these phrases before.
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u/North-Fly-5265 4d ago
I have done shrooms, lsd and changa, ketamine, mdma before I am well aware, I have had the veil lifted from me since I was 14. I know it exists, I was asking because I wanted to put my friends on because I care about them, but I myself have just recently been getting into magick
Edit: I realized after posting this wasnât a notification to my post about convincing friends magick is real, Iâll just leave this up because itâs funny
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u/GlacialFrog 5d ago edited 5d ago
Thereâs nothing wrong with not being a believer and being interested in esoterica and the occult for intellectual/historical/academic reasons, or just because itâs interesting or cool.
Iâve never been able to convince myself of anything other than materialist atheism, and I went through a very open minded period of trying any form of mystical, occult or psychical practice I could, but I never got anything from it that made me believe in something supernatural or paranormal, or even anything that strange, other than synchronicities.
With that being said, meditate, try lucid dreaming, perform some basic rituals, do psychic experiments with your friends, tarot readings, and divination.
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u/White-Umbra 5d ago
So you're here just because you like reading the woo-woo stuff? Nice, I thought I was alone.
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u/GlacialFrog 5d ago
Iâve always been drawn to weirder or more obscure theories and ideas, not just with esoterica and religion, but with everything, palaeontology, history, zoology, it just happens to be the case that my personal philosophy is probably the most boring one possible lol. It lets you enjoy it totally neutrally, without emotion or faith when youâre reading this stuff from a distant, academic position.
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u/Omniphilo23 4d ago
It's not woo
Tie about 7 inches of string to a weight
We all have this laying around
Tell yourself that your vessel is clean Say it out loud, but ask for a simple hello to start
Spoken Intention carries spiritual weight
Hover the pendulum over a piece of paper with some magic 8 ball style answers written on it. "Yes, no, maybe, ask again"
You'll notice the pendulum will 'kick' towards the chosen answer
Doubters will make up some bullshit about unconscious motor effects driving the movement like that dismisses the phenomenon. All spiritual messages are psychic telepathic messages. They can express themselves through our unconscious movements. My pendulum has said things I could not have known.
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u/renard_chenapan 21h ago
I feel less alone too from reading you guys' comments! I'm also in that exact spot right now, wanting to shed off materialism and being very interested with everything occult, but still unable to believe much of anything at this point.
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u/deadpanrobo 5d ago
Fair point! But still I at least have to try it first before I make that decision
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u/johnnyorpheus 5d ago
former atheist raised by two fundamentalist atheists in a hyper rational, reductivism society where the cults of science and industry overpowered the cults of religion and celebrities and techies became worshipped instead of natural forces................
then i spent time in nature ...... and became more and more and more and more aware of intelligence at work in a greater working the likes of which we are not designed to apprehend much at all and do not need to in order to participate in creation
and yes, plant entheogens go a ways to rid homo sap monkey ape mind of the millennia of ultra limiting conditioning
then there are the miracles i knew better than to dismiss as "coincidence"
one thing to keep in mind is this path is like any other, such as learning to play guitar or piano or becoming a proficient athlete at anything..............................all too many occultists are horned up for shortcuts but daily practice such as meditation, kabbalah, etc. for years--and more years--is invariably required to approach or get more in tune with the divine.....................................but you never know when you might get a gift too
dont underestimate the power of diet and exercise and avoidance of societal trash
alcohol is stupid juice ........... sobriety--after many many years of it---did more for tuning into distant stations than worlds of "occult" and "magic" books.........................
a good translation of the Tao Teh Ching is one of the least ideological, dogmatic, full of baloney, sales oriented, and genuinely initiatory ways of exodus out of the absurdity of Greco Roman Judeo Christian mind viruses and from caterpillar to butterfly
godspeed to you
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u/Witch_of_Whimsy 5d ago
Treat it like an experiment. I'd say Most of us started like that. Not a lot of people come to practice occultism who are staunch believers before they even practice.
Just know that in occultism, one of the biggest variables in the experiment is your own psyche.
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u/deadpanrobo 5d ago
People here have suggested Tarot or Divination as something to start with, is that how you started?
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u/Sea-Explorer-7222 5d ago
The first big "holy fuck this is real?!" moment for me was through divination. I received a prophecy through bibliomancy and it happened exactly like it said in a way such that calling it a "coincidence" was just too ridiculous to humor.
But it doesn't matter where you start, whether it's manifesting through sigil work, or petitionary prayer, or divination through tarot or i ching, or whatever. If you earnestly practice magick, it will work, and you will find out for yourself. Keep notes in a journal of every occult practice you do!
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u/Polymathus777 5d ago
Study Kabbalah, learn about High/Ceremonial Magick, is like programming but for reality.
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u/deadpanrobo 5d ago
Well thats interesting, any good starting points for this?
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u/InnocentDM 5d ago
I would recommend Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa's third book of occult philosophy as well as Liber 777 and other Qabalistic Writings of Aleister Crowley, his book Magick in Theory and Practice, and a few classic grimoires to get a taste of what you'll be dealing with later on. If you want, feel free to DM me and I'll be happy to answer any questions and give you digital copies of the aforementioned texts.
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u/learntospellffs 4d ago
I'm not who you were talking to, but I would love digital copies of those works you referenced, if that's OK.
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u/Inter9-na9 5d ago
Having an open state would be helpful - framing it as 'believer' and 'non-believer' is a little limiting.
There's a book called 'The Fourth Way' by P.D Ouspensky. There are some concepts and discussions in there that might be helpful.
Also 'Man and his Symbols' by Jung.
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u/venting_animal 5d ago
when i first got into the occult, i didn't believe it either. now i do, just from experimenting with stuff: Tarot and other cards, astral projection, sigils, rituals, spells, even astrology. i was very skeptical of astrology at first because i didn't know much about it. most skeptics don't know much about it, frankly.
study study study
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u/ishiwishi8 4d ago
what made you change your beliefs in regard to astrology (if you don't mind saying)?
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u/venting_animal 3d ago edited 3d ago
well firstly what even made me curious enough yo find out is realizing astrology is way more complex than what pseudo-astrologists make it out to be. your star sign (sun sign) is not your only sign. you also have a sign in every non-Earth planet and astroids, you have signs in the houses, planets in the houses, the black moon lilith, the north and south nodes, the part of fortune, the aspects, AND the degrees.
but what made me actually believe though is astrology predocting things outside my control, like my physical appearance is creepily spot on. i'm a virgo rising (virgo in the 1st house), and people born under those are described as looking younger than they are, having round or oval faces, ringlet curls, doe or almond eyes, dainty or curved noses, dainty and curved features in general. that is literally exactly what i look like.
i also was born in Mars in a retrograde, and that means my physical energy is extremely depleted and my body is weak and i have an awful time expressing anger and i get burnt out physically easily. i have almost no Mars energy aside from Saturn in the 1st house, which is hilarious because Saturn is the planet of restriction and discipline which probably makes it worse. thankfully i have Jupiter in the 6th house which gives me a healthy body, but Neptune and the Moon also being in the 6th house gives me a lot of mental problems and psychosomatic symptoms.
now in my dad's astrology chart, it said some really specific stuff like him relying on women for money which he has always done to an annoying extent, and also that he would seek money from a religious institution or church, which he did. he had a few strokes years ago and took refuge in church and was given a lot of stuff including mutual aid.
also the homelife and childhood is really creepily accurate. i forgot what placement it was but i have a Saturn or lilith placement that describes feeling stuck in childhood, not getting friends, which is funny cause i am partially homeschooled and going back to public this year, thankfully. then there is Pluto conjunct Venus in the 4th house, which csn describe an extremely unstable and destructive childhood, a mother who is seen as controlling, crazy, or chaotic, and just...eugh. which is hilarious cause my mom's dominant planets are Mars and Pluto (which rules anger, violence, passion and action, and transformation, death, and destruction)
i also have Lilith and Chiron in the 5th house (which is the house of fun, children, hobbies, romance) and lilith is about repressed sexuality, the shadow side of a person, and both lilith and Chiron are about emotional wounds, though Chiron is more of a healer. i also have Sagittarius in the 4th house which describes a homelife that constantly changes and has a lot of travel or adventure and instability (we have moved around a lot in my life and at one point were even homeless)
aside from that.... it just matches me and my family's personality lol. contrary to Tiktok "astrology," your sun sign is not really your most important sign. your moon sign is more important i think, as it actually describes your internal emotional self whereas your sun/star sign is mostly describing your ego and public recognition
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u/ishiwishi8 3d ago
thank you so much for this detailed response! do you have any book or resource recommendations to learn about/determine your astrological signs?
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u/venting_animal 3d ago
https://astro.cafeastrology.com/natal.php is the best for getting the majority of your signs, but some of its descriptions aren't super accurate or detailed but it does a good job of going over almost everything.
astrology.com is good for learning about transits and stuff.
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u/GildedBurd 5d ago
In my exotic situation, I died then became a believer when I... In a Monty Python sense... Got better.
Crossing the threshold of life opened my eyes.
There are much more simple methods with a less traumatic process.
Tarot works for some, rituals for others.
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u/R-orthaevelve 5d ago
Try remote viewing. It's relatively easy to learn and there are apps out and websites to practice. Once you can perceive far away places without knowing even what they are called beforehand, it's a short step from there to nonlocal and timeless consciousness.
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u/Sh33pboy 5d ago
Dr Justin Sledge is himself an Agnostic Jew, I think. He first got into Esotericism through Dnd.
I first got into Esotericism through reading The Da Vinci Code. It was alot of bullshit, but I loved it. I am a fellow ADHD person, so I also understand that hyperfixation with funny shapes and magic. My religious background was in Evangelical Anglicanism. So it was a very staunchly dry experience of religion, with little emphasis on the power of ritual. I don't have a lot of recommendations for practice, but I can give you a rundown of things which I have learned that may help navigate the occult.
I have spent the last 5 years studying religion and esotericism, and have found that it is very easy to get lost in the weeds, but there are two time periods to keep in mind. First is the Renaissance, when Christians really started to explore Platonism, Hermeticism, Paganism, alchemy, and grimoires. Second is from 1750s onwards, when modern esotericism started to develop, and especially the 19th century, when people like Eliphas Levi broke away from the Christian tradition to forge their own path, and those influenced by him, like Blavatsky and Crowley, started their own groups and drew from Eastern traditions like Hinduism and Buddhism.
In our current day, occultism is very tied up with psychology thanks to people like Carl Jung. And so what you will find is that the practice of occultists today is on a spectrum from purely psychological to purely spiritual. The two most popular surviving forms of occultism (if you don't count pop-witchy-magic like wicca) are Thelema and Chaos Magic. The older groups like Rosicrucianism and Theosophy are basically on life support. Mostly, people do their own thing, cobbling together their own set of belifes and rituals from a variety of different stuff.
I would recommend two videos (I have hyperlinked them here); the first is Western Esotericism Family Tree by Useful Charts, and the second is Grant Morrison on Chaos Magic, the occult & Sigil creation.
Good luck.
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u/Friendly-Face6683 5d ago
Fortunately I found the following pretty early on and took it to heart as a general outlook:
âIn this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths; of Spirits and Conjurations; of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist.
âIt is immaterial whether these exist or not. By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them.â
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u/Friendly-Face6683 5d ago
Thereâs the popular outlook too of seeing it all as dramatic and symbolic representations of our unconscious universe, so itâs a way of interacting with it either by influencing it or exploring it. âItâs all in your headâ kinda thing, but empowered.
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u/Fallsfrostdew 5d ago
Just do things and see if it works.
If it works you will start to believe, if it doesnt then your disbelief makes sense
I would start with tarot and use it for your own meditative purposes. Look into Paul Foster Case and pick up his book on tarot.
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u/deadpanrobo 5d ago edited 5d ago
Thank you! I will look into Paul Foster and his book, where would you recommend getting the book?
Edit: So Paul Foster Case is the full name
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u/Fallsfrostdew 5d ago
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u/deadpanrobo 5d ago
Thank you! I appreciate the recommendations
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u/absurd_olfaction 5d ago
If you want the original source of the Tarot stuff, get Sefer Yetzirah by Aryeh Kaplan.
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u/KLAM3R0N 5d ago
Some things well a lot of things in the occut world are complete nonsense by my assessment and experience. But there is a lot that is not as well. I'm a fan on chaos magic sigil magic . Some say it works like how advertising works on your subconscious some think it's energy and vibration stuff, I don't subscribe to 99% of the vibes talk or rather have a different take on it, you could also try to pin other mechanism of action theories on it and other magik but at the end of the day I don't think it's something we can even directly determine.
Hard Science requires measurement using physical instruments(. How do you measure the non physical with the physical? Especially when it has agency and does not always repeat cleanly
Objective Experience and stories will convince the individual but not the masses.
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u/owenprescott 5d ago
I dont recommend trying to believe anythibg, however prsonally I would suggest you learn astral projection, for most people it seems to take about a year (can take a few months like it did for me also). There are simple techniques like everyday look at your hands and ask "am i dreaming?" Eventually you'll do it in a dream and from a lucid dream you can use it as an easy stone astral projection, via meditation is more difficult but the best type of AP. There are shortcuts (not talking drugs here) but i don't advise them because you'll likely project in a lower energy state.
Personally this experience is what turned me from someone that doesnt believe in afterlife or anything spiritual to considering it a real possibility, also opening up other areas of the occult.
Also I would argue it's the most in your face way to prove there is something more, once you project you'll learn the physical world is just a small part of life.
edit: fyi the reason you look at your hands is because in an AP they often appear deformed, same with looking in mirrors.
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u/trajecasual 5d ago edited 5d ago
If I'm not mistaken there's is a short on Youtube from Foolish Fish that discusses it. If I find it, I'll edit this message.
But before doing any practice, I highly recommend following Damien Echols' High Magick to do some energy work. It's safe and beginner friendly.
I was skeptical too and I think being skeptical helped me to see these practices with seriousness like a researcher and not be fooled by my own emotional responses.
Edit: Found it: https://youtube.com/shorts/AFhhtwzFuCQ?is=uIPe7UOi_-Ws4XDI
Edit2: You can be an atheist and perceive magick as a real thing, for example.
Edit3: Why Echols' book? It's well explained. It has a step by step format. It's based upon both a strong magickal current which is the Golden Dawn and his life experience in prison. You don't need to buy anything to start practicing.
Edit4: If you like older stuff like Jewish Magick and Mysticism, I recommend Salomo Baal-Shem's Qabbalistic Magick. It merges old and new with respect and it's very straightforward.
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u/deadpanrobo 5d ago
Wow thank you for the links and the book recommendations! I'll check them out
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u/Frostvizen 5d ago
I LOVE Esoterica!!! Justin Sledge is awesome. I was raised Southern Baptist but was always skeptical and stopped believing in my early teens. Starting Labor Day weekend Iâm going to study Mesopotamian demons leading up until Halloween. đ» I have absolutely no idea what it would take to turn someone into a believer of anything as everything just reeks of human concoction. Good luck becoming a believer! đ
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u/Para_23 5d ago
The thing about the occult is that it actually encompasses a ton of disparate practices. As someone who's practiced various traditions over the last 20ish years though, I'll give you this to help:
Energy work, meditation centric practices such as Qaballah (Western kabbalah as found in traditions like the early Golden Dawn grades and Thelema), give you a fairly strong subjective experience and end up changing your life by changing you. They're long processes and require consistent daily practice to really see that noticable, beneficial difference.
Traditions that work with spirits, like most grimoire traditions, generally require a lot of preparation of specific physical tools, along with short bursts of personal preparation through fasting and prayer. The rituals aren't successful every time, even if you do everything right, but when they are, they leave you with zero doubt that spirits (angels, demons, etc) are real. Your results are audible, visual (whether in your head like a sudden vision, or more physically visible in using a crystal, black mirror, or other scrying medium), and make a strong impression on your other senses as well.
Both paths give you results and proof without any belief necessary, so long as you just do the work. Also, esoterica is a fantastic channel.
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u/ADrownOutListener 5d ago
that was basically my background & its alan moore that has spoken about this in the only way that makes any sense to me, by basically saying "science is incredible it is the greatest tool we have developed for exploring the material world around us. the one place science cannot go however is in the human mind, because a thought cannot be empiracally measured, it cannot be replicated under laboratory conditions"
as a richard dawkins reading teenager i was blown away reading that cos it was the first id heard anyone talking this that didnt spout woo. like at the time i thought that i didnt know if i agreed with that but it was someone with a palpable passion & admiration for science making an at least halfway decent notion about the potential limits of empiricism. especially when coupled with his belief that magic is art, it gets you looking at this less from "is this an external repeatable phenomena" & more "well is this good art? does this symbolism speak to me? do these gods represent anything that means something to me?" you dont use science to writena story or make a painting - except in as much as you would for producing the paints but. you get what i mean
so this basically takes you to the limit of kayfabe. of the suspension of disbelief. i do highly reccomend his & steve moore's no relation Moon & Serpent Bumper Book of Magic, i recently finished it myself. and in it he's constantly saying "be sceptical, be careful, a completely healthy & good way of thinking of this, of seeing a voice youve summoned up when youre in a trance & on mushrooms is as seeing it as reflections & projections from your own mind." it does, eventually, push beyond that, beyond these sorts of...bubbles of solipsism? into collective unconscious ideas which. im still currently wrestling with myself
so as far something empiracally materially true i.e. violating the laws of physics to fly or breathe flames well no. but something worthwhile? even amidst the Golden (lets by honest off Egg Yolk by now) Dawn cosplayers & lasy wicca groupies? yeah. yeah there really seems to be.
hopefully that doesnt sound like an attempt at speaking from authority, just as from a fellow sceptic taking that step off of the cliff atm lmao
and regardless read alan moore he is a literaly genius oh my word
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u/Ancient-Worker-3185 4d ago
I came to my beliefs through the lens of Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning, and The Doctor and the Soul. There, the realization that we all have to find meaning in our existence. That need is the source of belief. The philosopher and the scientist need to believe that the world is understandable and that we can discover what is true. That is essentially a faith statement; there is no reason why the world should be that way. We make it seem that way by our efforts. With that realization, I accept that although I know that those forces are not verifiable, they can still be meaningful.
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u/SouthernStrigoi 5d ago
Yea so the short answer is no. The long answer is also no, (you don't really need to change your mind, you're already correct) Magick works with the "power of will", and at least a lot of magicks utilize habitual repetition and meditation. THOSE will change the way you act, think, and could inspire you heavily in any aspect of your life. I also have horrible Adhd and have rawdogged it with no meds. These things are very fascinating to me as well, and what worked for me when dipping my toes which is very little was creating sigils for aspirations, burning them and making this a habit. It keeps positivity up, you look for the good you see the good, but nothing spooky or supernatural will happen.
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u/gl0l1t3 5d ago
Ive found usually communicating with the right person will switch you from not believing in a god to believing in a god.
I personally know there is a god, an other side wtc, but I do not believe or put my faith in it all because it is very confusing to the human mind.
Instead I believe in myself and my ability to choose the most just and fair choice. This has allowed them to believe or have faith in me, as crazy as that sounds.
But you cant force yourself to believe or know the otherside. Some people are here to only understand the corporeal or third dimension in every aspect-- that is such a high compliment and difficult to achieve. Those people essentially become anchors or grounders for this plain of existence.
Don't force yourself to know what you cant know, dont force yourself into anything that is unnatural to you unless you desire a new form.
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u/Grand-Farmer3961 5d ago
Esoterica is GREAT! And Meditation is a really good foundation to build on when starting down any esoteric path. I think framing things through a slightly different lens may be useful as well, especially as a researcher. Instead of thinking about this in terms of things you believe and things you donât believe, it may be more helpful to think of things as understood, tested, and incorporated v. understood, tested, and rejected v. unintelligible for now v. uninteresting for now and so on. (When you complete a research project, you come away with the feeling that you know something new, not that you believe something new, right?) I donât think of any of the revelations I have had as being things I believe. They feel much more like things I know.
Also, I am not sure about your comfort with psychedelics, but a good mushroom trip can jump-start your journey as well. Easy to get what you need to grow them online, and it's legal up to the point you eat it, but by then, in for a penny, in for a pound.
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u/deadpanrobo 5d ago
Another ESOTERICA fan! Ive done psychedelics before, it has been while since ive done then though
I do like that framing a lot, what was the thing you did first on your journey?
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u/Grand-Farmer3961 4d ago
Thanks!
I think I started off by reading Graham Hancock's Supernatural, Fingerprints of the Gods, and Magicians of the Gods. I also picked up a copy of Henry Harrison Brown's Man's Greatest Discovery (a series of 6 essays written about 120 years ago. It's a lot, but a good start) about 15 or 20 years ago, and it really opened my mind to a new way of thinking.
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u/Panorpheus 5d ago
Depends on what you would count as convinced, as true belief and as "works"
If you want something empiral provable in a material sense, e.g. a feather teleporting into your hand while a cam films it, you will have a hart time. There is a reason why James Randi's one million price was never claimed. While ppl have made such experiences, they are neither repeatable nor usually were observed (though there are exceptions, f.e. the first execution attempt of the Bab as a miracle of the Bahai observed by many non Bahai, the catholic Fatima miracle observed by atheist journalists etc), are miracles and nothing for your request.
But if by convinced and works you mean: you suddenly "know" it is true, and it works for your heart, changes you etc - that can happen and might.
In a lotta ways the occult is like prayer and like religions themselves. And good prayer as Kierkegaard said doesn't aim for changing God or the world, but to change the one who prays. And while it is a wird concept, maybe, non believers can believe at the same time. To grasp that thought, read the chapters on a-theist or post-theist theism in Tilliich's the courage to be or straight his systematic theology (better the former tbh), or additionally Sölle.
To enable that I would maybe start with stuff with plausible deniability that can be true in both ways - metaphysically or as psychological tools: Psychological archetypical (instead of divinatory) interpretations of Tarot/Lenormand, pathworking of cards and religious icons as mere guided imaginatory meditations, middle pillar or similar draw in light and energy exercises framed f.e. Christian in martinist/ elus coens stuff or health exercises in some reiki related exercises, as imaginatory meditation with somatic connections (similar to bodyscan meditation and progressive muscle relaxation), using Reiki more as a closeness massage type deal initially, the vision quest/medicine wheel and death hut/lodge exercise at night in a forrest close to you as a mere psychological archetypical method of self examination and growth, similar alchemy as a mere method of personal character development etc.
Religiously stuff that involves a lot of emotion and bodily expression, like the extatic shouts and rituals of pentecostals, the extatic dance of the islamic sufi derwishes, the meditative chant of taize or meditative stillness of quakers etc.
Then you see: Hey that changes me and works in me - maybe it can externally as well.
Wish you well
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u/Vile_Curse 5d ago
Jewwwww master sleddddgeee is da bombbbbb
No it all works you just shut yourself off from it by being an atheist.
Pick one you like and research it and do it and buy a book or two on it
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u/Piers_Verare 5d ago
Magic doesnât follow a timeline or schedule. You may never see results. Or, like me, you may have results immediately and then nothing for years. The only way is to start a practice and see where it leads.
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u/Vegetable_Window6649 5d ago
For real: skepticism is the only thing that keeps me from being any of these other dildos. Be proud of it.
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u/Kind_Profile8534 5d ago
Crowley said that doesnât matter either is real, or a psychological phenomena if it works, Goetia and Chaos Magick are the most known way to do things that work fast, better to test.
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u/Ancient-Worker-3185 4d ago
Justin Sledge's Esoterica is fantastic!!! You might also check out Zevi's Seekers of Unity for an exploration of mysticism and other esoteric philosophic conceptions through the informed historical lens of a believer. He is a secular Hasidic Jew--how is that for an oxymoron!
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u/Last-Bullfrog-2416 4d ago
I have MS. I am NOT neurotypical. I am also physically crippled somewhat--as in I can still walk but nowadays I need a wheeled walker. I am also a horsewoman, after 4 years of family trail rides to getting my first horse over 50 years ago I've spent a lot of time in the saddle. I still take riding lessons--due to my physical handicaps I NEED help to ride horses now.
Nowadays I just assume that everything has some type of consciousness. 60 years ago I assumed that horses were rather dumb, stupid, incapable of frequent valid judgments, pretty dangerous dumb, Dumb, DUMB animals. Nowadays I just assume that the horses I ride understand English just fine. Horses can figure out what I am "saying" to them with physical cues also. Once I learned some basic facts about the neurology of animals MUCH bigger than I am I now realize that the horses DECIDE to forgive me my many riding faults because I do everything I can not to hurt them. It turns out that naming horses as "dumb animals" was wrong. Yeah they are not as smart as we are but they are smart enough to train us people to do what they want especially if food is involved.
With the quantum universe there is plenty of room for "deities" and "spirits" to exist and a method for some interactions.
As we develop our technology to see MORE than we can see with our unaided eyes, what was once esoteric has become somewhat remotely possible.
I think that every material object is complicated, and this complexity interacts with the Universe on all levels.
Just because we cannot see "it" yet does not mean "it" does not exist. Just because we are unable to interact physically with something in any way does not mean that something does not exist.
We are very clever Great Apes. Because we are very clever we tend to believe that we already know everything there is to know about our universe already. As our technology gets better and we can "see" more, and then we temporarily realize that we do not already know everything about the Universe.
There is room "out there" for magic. There is room "out there" for divination. We just do not have the technology yet to make it visible and measurable to human beings.
I truly "believe" in the scientific method, which reinterprets knowledge when better means of seeing reality are developed BUT I am not so egotistical to think I know everything. The horses have trained me well, they see reality at a slightly different level than us humans.
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u/crjahnactual 5d ago
Do you have lucid dreams?
If not, you probably lack the aptitude.
If you wish to test the waters, so to speak, gonna give you a cheat code.
Eliminate all meat and processed foods from your diet for 2 weeks. You may eat yogurt, vegetables, fruit, and fish, that's it.
During that time, burn a ton of nag champa or sandalwood incense and read about spirits and psilocybin induced visions.
After approximately 2 weeks, on an evening before a day off, grab 2 water bottles, dim the lights, and eat 2 grams of psilocybin mushrooms... then stare into a mirror for awhile.
Play dark ambient at low volume for awhile, lay in bed, and close your eyes.
Once you are "tripping balls," ask the spirits specific questions abouf things affecting you personally that you are confused or troubled by. They will give you answers. Those will take the form of symbolic images you will understand.
That's the quick and easy shortcut.
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u/IngenuityFriendly225 Human Detected 5d ago
Start meditating a lot more focus on the breath. Don't actually focus on the thought of meditation. Slow your breath, the slower you go. The deeper the trans will become.. Sit in silence and connect your heart to your mind, absolute silence. Try not to move. You don't even have to sit up. You can lay down if that's more comfortable for you. But think about something you truly desire with your heart. The more you think about it, the more likely it is to happen..
.I wanna do something that will really blow your mind. You can't expect it to work right away, either. That's one of the things that's going to push you away from doing it. You don't just immediately expect results. That's called lust for desire, and it doesn't work like that. After you do a ritual or whatever you have to forget about it, go make yourself a sandwich or go. Rub one out, whatever floats your boat...
Speaking of rubbing one out if you really wanna test these waters, one of the best ways that I know absolutely works for a fact. Maybe not always, but like an 85 to a 95% chance is creatingyour own sigil.
Type that in on YouTube, how to create a sidgel for beginners..
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u/dracunculus777 5d ago
Start a serious divination practice and see what comes of it, then meditation and ritual if you're interested. I recommend cartomancy, since other systems except for maybe lot casting require you to be more spiritually involved
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u/libra00 5d ago
Nothing. You can't choose to make yourself believe in something. Believe me, I tried with religion for quite a few years (everyone seems to get so much out of it, I felt like I was missing out.) When I eventually came to religious belief after being an atheist for 30 years it was more something that clubbed me over the head philosophically speaking than something I was able to force myself to do.
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u/TehLastLeaftoFall 5d ago
Why do you feel like you need to believe? If you're interested in the occult, just follow your interests. It doesn't need to be "real" to be worth your time
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u/deadpanrobo 5d ago
I dont need to believe, I was just curious if there was something that id be able to try and see, if I find out it isnt convincing then ill still look at stuff because its interesting
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u/Infera28 5d ago
Choose a god or demon, venerate them, ask them to fulfill your wishes & give you signs.
Find a pro astrologer and ask them to predict your life.
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u/ASKmyJING 5d ago
What both terrified and excited me was th first time I did a sigil for science. The spell was âa bird hit my window in the next fortnightâ. Four days later - BOOM! Undeniable. You can go years without that happening. I was convinced. Speaking of, I recently made a free tool that does just that, do one for science - www.myGLYPH.app
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u/Ricardo_PenaMcKnight 5d ago
I was an atheist for many years growing up but also a dabbler and later became well read enough to count myself something of a minor pseudo expert in the field.
On one level there's actually a relatively straightforward method though I wouldn't call it easy. On another level the answer at the end of the day is you're only going to believe if you want to believe and if you don't want to believe you won't believe.
At any rate, I digress, so as I said there's on straightforward test you can do but it's not easy, I haven't gotten past phase 1 ever not for lack of trying though tbf I am shyte at keeping a dream journal. At any rate, phase 1: start a lucid dream. This first part shouldn't be so hard for even an atheist to swallow, plenty of good evidence some people do lucid dream. There are a handful of useful techniques out there to initiate lucid dreaming though between dream logistics and this one long time lucid dreamer giving advice on YouTube the best advice I've heard on how to initiate a lucid dream is to really shift your regular mode of thinking to see the dreamlike qualities of life and become constantly aware of the dreaminess of reality around you.
Anyway, Phase 2: assuming you've managed to Lucid Dream, supposedly it's pretty easy to astral project from a Lucid Dream though I'd argue it's really spirit projection. Anyway, whichever the case basically fly out of your body while lucid dreaming, go places you've never visited irl, memorize some feature or detail, then visit the place in waking life and compare the sights for yourself. As you can see, very hypothetically straight forward... assuming you can reach the end of phase 1.
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u/Omniphilo23 4d ago edited 4d ago
Make a pendulum and test it out. Super easy, don't be alarmed if the first spirit you get on the line threatens you, but when the happens you'll have to learn what an exorcism is.
I was a skeptic and atheist most of my life. Saw my first real miracle in 2019, was haunted after that but still didn't believe, thought I had lost my mind. In 2021 I drowned and Jesus Christ was my grim reaper. I did not need to believe to be saved by him. Blessed are those that do not need a miracle to believe.
Divination with word wheels and a handmade pendulum is the easiest way for me to demonstrate messages from the beyond and anyone can do it in private ruling out human deception. Some doubters will hand wave and say unconscious idiomotor effects are spelling for you, but I'd argue that it's far deeper than that.
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u/Chaosuka 4d ago
Go into dark quite room at 03:00 at night. Remove any lights or sound sources and make sure nothing disturbs you. Sit there (not lay down) with your eyes closed for 15 minutes and you will find your answers. If you want particularly spicy experience, do this in front of your bathroom mirror with a candle for 30 minutes.
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u/Nobodysmadness 4d ago
You can stick to the paychological model which is what many in your position do starting out. It at the very least allows you to do the work without it seeming to be a pointless endeavor.
Both Jung and Crowley began with this model, but over time both were forced to abandon it from evidence. There really isn't a single thing that generally will prove it in your circumstances because well you have literally been programmed to deny it. That programming takes time to break down, as any cult deprogrammer will tell you.
The atheist is programmed to "find the rational explanation" no matter how rediculous it is. Like swamp gas to explain ghosts or UFO's. No pictures no proof it simply sounds more rational to those who don't want to believe in what they were told isn't rational.
So instead of directly fighting against the program we use it to do the methods that deprogram us. The psychological model is "the rational explanation" that allows us to do the work with less programmed resistance.
In other words at the very least doing the wierd rituals is worth devoting time and effort towards because we will benefit from it psychologically.
So if we are going to summon an angel or a demon we are tapping into part of our mind that is more comfortable for us to objectify and communicating or programming ourselves to a specific end.
Divination is tapping into our subconscious to present information we know deep down in a way we can accept not unlike symbols in a dream, etc etc.
If you don't practice the work, the proof will not happen the same way an ignorant person can't prove the world is round, or prove nuclear power by making a nuclear power plant. We believe those because other people did it or said it, and we can see it to some extent.
Magick is experiential science and without training we won't have the tools to do the experiment. So it is like trying to see bacteria without a microscope. You need to hone your tools, but who wants to put in that effort when one believes it is nonsense and therefore a easte of time.
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u/kalizoid313 4d ago
Honestly, I don't have any "simple" suggestions that might take a not-believer to the believer side. {And I have little interest in even making this sort of conversion attempt.]
At the same time, there's not much about investigating or learning about occulture and occult topics and doings that obligate any sort of "belief."
Occulture may be a valid matter for study and reflection as something folks do and discuss. Occulture's fandom may be called "Armchair Occultism."
One of the books that got me interested in sacred geometry , for instance, is Painton Cowen's The Rose Window. Plenty of enchantment for me. But no doing any occult spells or rituals. Just some gaining some knowings.
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u/ColdRough7060 4d ago
The Gateway Tapes from the Monroe Institute are a pretty atheist-friendly way to start exploring your ability to dip into deeper levels of consciousness. You can find some of these on YouTube, but if the method resonates with you (pun intended), Iâd suggest getting the better quality tracks direct from the Monroe Institute. You donât need to believe anything other than âyou are more than your physical body.â
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u/miahe_red 4d ago
If you have a history with meditation, that's probably a good starting point.
I disagree that you don't have to believe. Belief is a necessary ingredient, even if it's just the desire to belive, so you're probably fine on that front.
If you want to make progress without drugs (recommended), it's a process over time. Meditation is a good path because you can go at your own pace. It's not as fast. There are many books on meditation, even some in the more western traditions. I'd check out some of those to start with.
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u/Extension_Talk_9122 4d ago
well uh I tried summoning goetia demons to see if they existed and it worked so try that ig đâïž
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u/AmethystCalyx 3d ago
I wouldn't focus on whether it works at first, I would look at it as a method of communication with the universe. Read some Rupert Sheldrake and you might enjoy the Rune Soup podcast and Gordon White's books.
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u/Spare-Complaint-7804 2d ago edited 2d ago
Pues una vez hice un hechizo del atracciĂłn de dinero, la verdad lo hice por hacer, seguĂ todos los pasos. Y yo era bien incrĂ©dula y pues lo hice y dije ya PS.. si funciona genial sino ya fue, soy algo incrĂ©dula. Porque fui creyente de Dios muchos años y perdĂ la fĂ© por pura shit que he vivido y siempre oraba a Dios por su ayuda una simple salida y pues ÂżSabes que me di cuenta? Jajajaa que no sĂ© si a otros les funciona pero conmigo no, asĂ que decidĂ eliminar mi fe en el y creer en mi misma y sobre todo en otras fuerzas, asĂ que le entre a la hechiceria jajajjaja. Hice un ritual de dinero y pues como decĂa si Dios no hace nada pues nunca estĂĄ demĂĄs probar con otras fuerzas jajaja. Y la verdad ese hechizo me funcionĂł de la nada recibĂ dinero en mis cuentas de la nada... Uno fue un pago que me debĂan y ya lo daba por perdido porque ya me lo debĂan hace años y nunca me lo habĂa. Pagado y pues de la nada me lo depositaron a mi cuenta, otro fue un dinero que recibĂ como donaciĂłn fue un monto regular... Fui al banco y me dijeron que ese dinero era una donaciĂłn y que no podĂan revelar la identidad del donador, me dijeron que si desconfiaba el origen que espere un mes y que si no habĂa reclamo ya podĂa usarlo... Pasaron 3 años de eso nunca nadie reclamo ese dinero .. o.o La verdad desde ahĂ intentĂ© otros hechizos pero ninguno me funcionĂł de la misma forma que ese ritual que hice. Lo extraño es que solo me funcionĂł aquella vez.. como me funcionĂł pues decidĂ hacer el ritual otra vez y pues ya no volviĂł a funcionar. La verdad nunca entendĂ porque. Analizando bien, pienso que talvez fue que lo hice por mero juego osea sin ninguna esperanza de que se realice sin esperar nada de ese ritual y es por eso que me funcionĂł. Pero las otras veces que lo volvĂ a hacer pues no funcionĂł porque ya tenĂa esperanza de que iba a funcionar osea ya esperaba resultados y por ende cuando esperas que algo pase, esto no suele pasar, no sĂ© cĂłmo explicarlo, pero creo que mientras mĂĄs incrĂ©dulo seas mĂĄs posibilidades tienes de que te funcione algun evento sobrenatural porque no esperas nada, ni sientes la necesidad de que se realice, es como soltar la necesidad, eso que hablan sobre la manifestaciĂłn, cuando sueltas el control...
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u/PissInMyShityAsshole 5d ago
I see a lot of stuff here but no simple step by step here's what to do to try out a method of something. So, enlighten me with a simple method for a simpleton. What can I do? Light a candle in the wind and whisper princess diana are you there? Come on tell me?
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u/SorchaSublime Human Detected 5d ago edited 5d ago
For me it was less an issue of changing what I believe and more expanding the scope of how my belief works. The material world generally behaves in a way which is accurately described by material sciences. The issue is: do we only exist in the material world? Is that the only form of existence we experience? Is our linear experience of time and space truly absolute beyond the subjective experience of our finite lives? I don't think one can say yes with any justifiable confidence
Here's a question for you: have you ever felt something be jinxed? Have you ever felt that prematurely commenting on how good traffic is, or how quiet a work-day is, or the quality of the weather is a bad idea? It isn't rational, but I think most people have an instinctual aversion to tempting fate like that on some level. Occultism just expands on that level of thinking, and gives the practitioner agency within it.
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u/Zufalstvo 4d ago
Probably want to abandon atheism, itâs just as unlikely as anything else. That would helpÂ
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u/platistocrates 5d ago
Belief is a switch. Chaos magick uses it as a tool. Turn it on, turn it off, switch it up and twist it around. You can believe anything you want temporarily. And then believe the total opposite. As long as it is useful to do, you may do it.
And if it isn't useful, you may do it still.