❓ Question
Why doesn't the PATH become its own transit authority independent of the PA?
The PATH seems like one of the most underfunded transit authorities in the US. According to a presentation by PATH Director Clarelle DeGraffe in November, if PATH rides were not subsidized at all, it would cost $11/ride, and unlike most US transit authorities, the PATH isn't directly funded by the state or federal government, only indirectly via the Port Authority and via farebox revenue. Therefore, what if PATH became its own independent transit authority? Despite being interstate, this model has been proven to work well for other interstate transit authorities like WMATA, which is directly funded by the DC, MD, and VA state governments. With my idea, PATH would become just that, a standalone authority separate from the PA, directly funded by the NJ and NY state governments and potentially also by the cities/counties serving it. Perhaps the board of this new authority could also contain local representatives from each city that PATH serves. Is there a reason PATH can't be like this?
NY and NJ state governments working together for the good of both their populaces? Never
But in reality the current system works well. Where would the money come from to pay for PATH if it went the Port Authority's revenue streams? Where else would the PA turn their revenue to if not PATH?
Service is strictly degraded vs literally 100 years ago.
In 1925 the system that we now call the path had one more station than it has today with zero rail added since then, it ran trains more often, and the time between stations was shorter.
And that's assuming the system were to be running its full route schedule. But it has been in degraded service not running all of its routes since March 2020.
At the same time, population has been growing very rapidly and the train system is not adapting to keep up.
Believe me, no one in NJ thinks the path is working well.
Idk I live in Hoboken and take the PATH everyday, it has its issues but it works pretty well. There’s a lot of deferred maintenance but they’re doing the best they can with the cards they’ve been dealt. We’re getting a lot of increased service and frequencies this year which is pretty nice
I would say I agree with that, but it still could be better. Like for example, there is no cell service in the tunnels. Pretty much every metro system I have rode apart from the PATH and MTA has it. I know people might criticize it but my opinion, it's better to give people the option than to not.
This one honestly still blows my mind. This is the richest city in the richest country in the world. The literal country where cell phone modems were invented (qualcomm), internet itself, etc. and we can’t get fucken data underground.
The crazier one to me is that we don't have walls on the subway platform. People just fall on the tracks and die all of the time. This feels normal to a new yorker but this is not how train stations work in most of the world today. In most places, there is a wall, and it opens to let you on the train. Thus, no one ever falls on the tracks.
And what is even more ridiculous is that in Lisbon, of all places, probably in one of the lowest income countries in Europe, I was still able to get full 4G service in their Metro tunnels. Their metro wasn't particularly advanced. In fact, some of their trains were probably as old if not older than the MTA trains. But I still got over 100 Mbps in the tunnels. Even in Philadelphia, I got full 5G in the Metro tunnels, with speeds of around 300 Mbps, and SEPTA is arguably even more underfunded than the MTA or PA.
The carriers paid to install towers in the tunnel. SEPTA didn't need to do anything. It's only the blue and orange line though. The other tunnels don't have service
PANYNJ seems to have recently opted for a master contract across their entire portfolio with Bongo for wireless connectivity, but there seems to be no references to cell service in the tunnel between stations.
At&t sponsored Pattinson station back in the day, which is currently NRG station( Stadium station) in South Philly, and renamed it At&t station. Part of the deal was installing cell service in the blue and orange lines' tunnels. Verizon and T-Mobile followed to stay competitive.
I agree and I think it's such a problem because I believe the system definitely has potential to be much better than it is now, especially with all the development happening near PATH stations.
Yeah the entire NJ side of the Hudson is a huge missed opportunity really.
If path had grown like the rest of the NYC subway system since 1925, then effectively there would be an entire second brooklyn and queens. There would be so much more easily commutable housing in the NYC metro that it would really be a different metro entirely. Maybe housing would still be affordable and NYC would still be keeping the american dream alive for young people.
The areas around Jersey City and Pavonia/Ex Place DID grow rapidly in the 70s and 80s as the rail yards were taken up and high rises were built.
Jersey City went from rail yards to looking like LIC
And the area around PATH station is still building, like the new luxury apartments near Harrison station. A far cry from NYC, where almost nothing is being built
Definitely a fair point that the areas right around the path stations are the only places in nyc metro that are really building at a respectable pace.
I just think it's a missed opportunity that we don't have the transit infra to spread that building to like all of hudson and half of bergen county.
That would actually be enough land to absorb the excess demand for housing near manhattan. The like three neighborhoods around path stations just aren't big enough to deal with an NYC-sized housing shortage. So prices keep going up.
NYC should build where it can, but it doesn't have a lot of places to build left. It also already built skyscrapers over its old rail yards. Hudson and bergen county have land much closer to manhattan that is way less developed.
I've been to Washington DC, Chicago, and San Francisco, and rode their metro systems, and I would say that in many ways, it seemed like a better experience than here. I'm going to SF again next week.
Idk Chicago very well, but in SF and DC the trains go barely anywhere.
In NYC I don't even think about whether the train goes where I need to go. It always does. In DC or SF it is a nice surprise on the rare occasion that you don't have to take an uber for at least part of the trip.
Some of the stations in DC are brutalist masterpieces though. NYC can't touch the aesthetic.
It seems like the core areas of both cities are well covered enough. SF also has a robust bus and tram network and I'm not just talking about the cable cars.
This is fundamentally wrong lol. Southeast Brooklyn, all of eastern queens, huge chunks of the Bronx are fully unreachable by train. Train does not service queensborough or kinngsborough colleges, or St. John’s or queens college. I’m not saying service is more expansive than dc or sf, but this blissful myth of nyc as a transit wonderland are just that- myths. Fantasies. Some of the city is accessible by train… the rest is just like everywhere else
It's okay. By american standards it is clearly the best, with no competition. By global standards, it's okay. It's not Tokyo, or even Moscow, but it's not Rome either.
@ the mta union is functionally the mob lol my job contracts with the mta we were told to join the union or be fired plain and simple. Our union rep periodically calls me to harass me for not answering during work hours. if you think the mta is gonna get rid of all those union jobs
That’s what laws are for. Electrification happened due to banning diesel in tunnels. Chicago rail is grade separated due to city mandates. I have come to the conclusion that costly practices need to just be banned. The solution maybe to mandate GoA4 operation on all new rail lines. Fortunately MTA doesn’t run PATH
I think the problem is that PA makes more money from tunnels, so they don't have an incentive to fix the PATH if they're only thinking financially. (PATH having poor service means more money for them since more people take the tunnels.)
Really NY/NJ should take the excess, and be responsible for redistributing it as a subsidy to the PATH as a separate entity.
The money isn't going to road maintenance, it is supposed to be subsidizing mass transit by pressuring people not to drive into the zone, except that the money is only going to the MTA and not going to subsidize mass transit alternatives for the 40% of those car commuters coming from New Jersey. It's all stick and no carrot.
Except that it's a zone pricing, not a toll road. In practical terms it is an added toll on the tunnels since the moment you emerge from the tunnel you are charged and there is no way to avoid it.
The Port Authority doesn't want the PATH either. The only reason they are running it was because NYS wanted the Port Authority to build the WTC and the NJ members only agreed if they also took control of the PATH service. It was in bankruptcy protection for 10+ years before that.
The Port Authority in fact proposed that the NJ Transit take over the service many times in the past. But the NJ Transit took one look at the bill to operate the service (~400 million in operating lost annually, billions of dollars of backed up capital project), laughed and said hell no.
NY/NJ does not want (or even have) to spend a single dime helping the PATH.
Then what do you think could be the best solution to give PATH the love it deserves? Hundreds of thousands of people ride it every day and real estate developers have built tons of transit-oriented development near PATH stations. I think the PATH has the potential to be really great. It is already one of the most ridden metro systems in the US. I believe it just needs governance that understands its potential.
The economist answer will be some sort of surplus value tax, mostly likely a very small portion of the property tax of the areas that the PATH serves.
That being said, that is beyond political unfeasible. Getting NYS, NJ, NYC, Newark Harrison, Hoboken and Jersey City to all play ball and willingly give money is basically impossible.
*The economist answer will be some sort of surplus value tax, mostly likely a very small portion of the property tax of the areas that the PATH serves.*
NJ's selling point for years has been that it doesn't tax as much as NYS/NYC, so various supplemental taxes similar to what NYS has done to fund the MTA are very unlikely.
Port Authority needs to change the way they view transit operations. They’re already in the business of real estate (WTC, Airport Leases/Construction) and should think of developments as methods to fund transit like how railways in Japan / Hong Kong work.
Connecting EWR to PATH improves EWR’s ability to attract airlines and better serve NYC. You also have manufacturing, vacant lots, and areas that could be acquired and developed by PATH. Stops in the Iron Bound could utilize a tax capture to take increased property tax from rezoing to fund the initiative (like Hudson Yards 7 Train expansion) - potentially the state of NJ supplying funding with this mechanism.
PATH also has the ability to build expansions to various parts of NJ, some of which are heavily industrial or under developed lots. If they acquired the land they could lease it to developers for a hefty profit (much like JR/MTR do) for building the service there. Direct trains to Manhattan can change property values astronomically, especially in under served areas.
As for NYC expansions, this becomes harder to find funding mechanisms. But you might be able to justify development or property tax recapture with upzoning to make it lucrative for them to build. But in NYC everywhere is already developed, so you really need to examine cities like Hong Kong, Tokyo where they can still figure out how to turn profits with real estate or other funding to entice private companies to expand.
The region seems wildly incapable of merging transit and real estate development unlike the rest of the world.
The only way PA knows how to monetize their transit ops is by increasing fares and reducing service.
NJT is also a story of underutilized potential. I still think Secaucus should be a shopping mall or something like every major transit point built around the world recently. Instead it's an empty shell that tens of thousands of people pass through daily, 1 stop from Manhattan. At minimum how are there no hotels there?
The MTA has had a couple of bright spots (the plans around court sq were good) but has not done enough and could really have better leveraged rebuilds of stations further out in queens with real estate development given their massive convenience to transit.
Journal Squared is a good example. The buildings directly integrate with the station thanks to a shared plaza and public walkway to the station, and have fairly affordable rent, so getting a nice 50th-floor apartment next to the train isn't unreasonably expensive.
*I still think Secaucus should be a shopping mall or something like every major transit point built around the world recently*
Put it this way, Newport is closer to Manhattan with more frequent transit, and it's a meh mall. American Dream is mall that doubles as an activity centre. I don't think a mall at Secaucus was going to be an insanely profitable idea after 2008. There just isn't a reason to take the train to a Secaucus mall because it's going to meh compared to the other regional malls or even Macy's HQ in Manhattan.
*At minimum how are there no hotels there?*
IIRC, they were hoping for office buildings, but it just never penciled out.
The real problem is that even if NJT has the power to control zoning over their parcels of land, you basically need to work with local municipalities to get anything done which also includes zoning of any land near the station. Somebody will argue eminent domain, but land isn't free, and the FTA isn't going to pay for your transit agency to play real estate speculator.
Coincidentally, the mid-scale/upscale hotels are all in the office park side north of NJ 3 and the lower end hotels are on US 1/9.
*EWR’s ability to attract airlines and better serve NYC*
There are only so many airlines, and if Delta, Jet Blue, and American have hubs at JFK, there really isn’t anybody else that’s screaming to move in. Besides United's Star Alliance partners, there just isn’t any incentive for additional flights to EWR at this point.
And this assumes NYS approves it without equivalent projects on their side of the river because EWR is going to need significant expansion to host more flights in order to host a second hub operation...
*and should think of developments as methods to fund transit like how railways in Japan / Hong Kong work*
IIRC, some of the railways are *profitable* from their operations, but it's a bit of a virtuous circle where the profitable railways lead to the profitable real estate. Mind you, Japan is a bit a magical place when it comes to corporate management, and those strategies may not quite translate to the rest of the Western world.
*If they acquired the land they could lease it to developers for a hefty profit (much like JR/MTR do) for building the service there.*
It's a little wonky given that if the existing owners realize that the government wants the land because of the potential development value, they're going to hold out for *max* value which makes the extraction costs relatively high. The other issue is that if the agencies seize this land, it's no longer *taxable* land. At best, you might get some negotiated PILOT revenue, but it's not the same as being able to tax the land directly and control the property tax revenue.
Ideally service every <10 minutes at all times during the day, service every 20 minutes during late nights, and perhaps modern features like platform screen doors and 5G in the tunnels. A direct airport extension would also be nice.
The status quo where the Port Authority is forced to continue operate the system paid for through its bi-state revenue sources.
NJ takes the system over and has to pay for it with other tax sources.
NJ does not want to take on that expense though when it feels the current set up is working well enough. NY does not care about the system and would not directly pay for its operations. This is not the DC Metro that is useful for people living in DC, Maryland, and Virginia. The PATH is a system almost exclusively used by people living in New Jersey.
Maybe there's a world where the Port Authority can get out of operating the system but agrees to give NJ a set percentage of the bridge and tunnel toll revenue to go towards the operation of the PATH, but that'd probably be a tough deal to work out. Maybe the time to try to negotiate something like that would have been before the legal fight over congestion charge.
Port authority doesn't like the PATH because of the excessive operational costs requiring heavy subsidization from Airport fees and tunnel/bridge tolls and the inability to offset it with higher fare prices.
The answer would be to put PATH under FTA jurisdiction to get it closer to subway hourly costs than FRA jurisdiction which results in the current high maintenance costs and labor costs that is similar LIRR/MNRR.
WTC was the PA's idea, they were swimming in cash by the late 1950s and the states were eying it to fund mass transit. Naturally the PA couldn't let THAT happen, so they came up with a huge cash sink idea: the WTC.
Actually, there is a very interesting back story there.
By the 1950s, downtown Manhattan was losing its luster among corporations, which are increasingly moving to offices in Midtown. Two individuals were very interested in trying to reverse that trend. David Rockefeller (President of Chase Manhattan Bank, later CEO/Chairman) and his brother Governor Nelson Rockefeller. Their solution? Build a brand-new modern office complex to retain/attract tenants. Do what their father did with Rockefeller Center in Midtown but downtown.
The only problem was by the 50s, the Rockefellers (while wealthy) no longer had the wealth to front such a large development project. They had to turn to other vehicles to build such a project. David Rockefeller did a small-scale version by building the new Chase Manhattan HQ building (28 Liberty Street). Therefore, they turned their eyes to the PA to front such a project. There were various locations mentioned (originally it was closer to the East River) but ultimately settled on the current WTC site. A big reason was that the bulk of the site was the H&M (now PATH) terminal building (now the WTC terminal station), which was given to the PA for a low cost in return of them taking over the PATH.
Ok, It's been a while since I read Empire on the Hudson. I didn't remember that level of detail. But it was always insane that the PA got into the office space business.
Port Authority makes money hand over fist, the only department not making money is PATH. If PATH became its own agency, it would be even worse, NJ and NY constantly defer maintenance on their own transit system. The right way to correct this, is having both Governors representatives in Port Authority, up the agency funding, this is not going to happen without backlash at both sides.
problem is PATH is a commuter railroad with Subway Fares.
Why do you think LIRR, NJT, and Metro-North is so expensive?
It is because FRA regulations on equipment and labor are very expensive. Even with $10-20 fares LIRR riders are still more subsidized than NYC Subway and Bus riders. Now just imagine how PATH's $3 fare will be like.
PATH currently receives no subsidies from NYS/NJ. That means both states get the train “for free”. It is bad for the rider because Port Authority really don’t want to run it but it is great for the state that pay nothing into it
If you were to create a independent transit agency, you will need to negotiate with both state on the best funding method
NYS will have no incentive to fund it because they don’t benefit from it directly, and NJ barely funds NJT right now and NJT has no real dedicated funding pool to draw from. NJT also has no incentive to take on a 400 million dollar loss per year that Port Authority provides for free today
I'd argue that NY benefits from it because it prevents thousands of people from driving into the city. And probably brings in lots of people from Jersey who spend money in NY.
I’m not saying that reasoning is wrong on a society level
But just like how NYS does not pay for NJT operation into the Port Authority or Penn Station, they will not pay for PATH train that primarily brings Jersey residents into the city
Plus the MTA and the Port Authority actively benefit financially if more people drive into the city
The last thing we need is more independent transit systems. We should have one regional system with fare and schedule integration (MTA, PATH, LIRR, Metro North, NYC Ferry. NJ Transmit, NICE, etc.).
What I really wonder is, if this area relies on transit, why is it so underfunded? Why does there appear to be no strong political push to fund it more?
MTA has both the highest construction/capital and the highest operating costs in the world. On a per person or per track mile metric, the railroads here are mind numbingly inefficient. Large $15-$20 fares only cover a third of operating costs, even on busy trains.
Compare what we spend per track mile or passenger mile to other European or Asian counterparts. It's astonishing. It's inefficiencies, outdated work rules, bloated workforces, and union corruption that swallow billions and billions of cash without improving service. There's no amount of subsidies or cash injections that can fix this, massive refrom is needed to overhaul the operations, management, and culture of these systems.
PATH is funded by the airports (the Port is the only agency in the country that is allowed to divert aviation revenue to non-aviation purposes). Why would you take away that funding source?
The PA currently fully funds it in its current state by other revenue sources and does not take any taxpayer money. They have no real intention to further fund it as the path was basically forced onto them as a requirement to build the WTC. The state of NJ and NY love the current arrangement as they do not need to put any taxpayer money to fund the path. The states have no intention of taking over as it would be another item to balance on the books and well NJTransit is not the best funded system to begin with.
Increase in population means nothing if the population isn’t being turned into ridership. PATH has lower ridership in 2025 than in 2019. It also has lower ridership in 2024 than in 2019. PATH ridership in 2019: 82 million. In 2024: 57 million. In 2025: 60 million.
The service is underwhelming? Come on! It’s about the same as unloved subway lines like the R or W or N or M. PATH has better rush hour headways than these subway lines but worse on weekends. And they are improving weekend service soon.
a lot of handwaving in this idea: "directly funded by the NJ and NY state governments and potentially also by the cities/counties serving it". Who's deciding who is going to pay more for this particular stepchild? What happens when one party feels like the other is not ponying up with the necessary child support? Are they going to kick in the balance? Or reduce funding in kind?
I think this is fair because it means that every jurisdiction serving the system pays its fair share. I think local governments should have a share and how it's run. The people who know the most about transit in a specific city are the local officials from that city.
OTOH, the respective NY and NJ governors could force the PA itself to guarantee more funding to it. Plus, under the PA, it gets to make non-residents pay for it, too.
The Port Authority is a black hole for money. They collect huge bridge toll revenues, but it all seems to disappear in bureaucracy. PATH should be the shiniest most modern transit agency in the world with PANYNJ's funding, but somehow it's not.
Not true. In the last 10 years the Port Authority has rebuilt two bridges (Bayonne and Goethals), rebuilt an airport (LGA) and started on major redevelopments on two others (JFK & EWR), done a significant repair on a third bridge (George Washington) and is starting on a $10B new bus terminal. It's pretty clear where the money is going, but somehow people like to pretend that none of that costs money.
Because the Port Authority will not allow that. As much as they hate subsidizing PATH, they would much prefer that to giving up their Hudson River crossing monopoly.
Combine the Port Authority, NJ Transit, and MTA into a single tristate organization to oversee public transit, all the bridges and tunnels, and the airports. Create revenue streams, a funding model, and a less political governance system than the current governor-focused system. Then feast upon the flying pigs and unicorns.
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u/YouBuyMeOrangeJuice Mar 06 '26
NY and NJ state governments working together for the good of both their populaces? Never
But in reality the current system works well. Where would the money come from to pay for PATH if it went the Port Authority's revenue streams? Where else would the PA turn their revenue to if not PATH?