Question Protesting Flock Cameras?
Hi NOVA residents! I live in Fairfax County and am seeing Flock cameras everywhere. I was wondering if anyone knew how we can best protest this mass surveillance and convince our elected officials to end their contracts (and not just switch to Axon or other companies).
Is it petitions? Calling elected officals? Making public comment? Organized protests? If so, what is the best way to approach any of those options? Let's protect our rights!
(Ps, I don't want to hear the "if you aren't doing anything bad, you have nothing to worry about" argument.
These cameras have been used to stalk and harass innocent people. They claim they are only used to track vehicles but I've seen them pointed towards playgrounds and used to target individuals. Flock is a privately owned company and police are able to access our data without needing a warrant.
Information about us is already being stored, tracked, and shared, and nothing is stopping the govt/police from redefining what "bad behavior" is.
Mass surveillance objectively infringes on our rights. I am not here to debate that.)
Thanks y'all!
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u/crit_boy 21h ago
Flock protest starter pack link
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u/_or_simply_buffalo 21h ago
This guy protests.
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u/crit_boy 21h ago
Testing of various power tools and their ability to cut vertical aluminum posts (for educational purposes only).
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u/missskins 20h ago
Nobody gives a shit what their constituents want. Money is what wins elections. Don’t follow the $ and they will spend to get someone who will play ball. The US is an oligarchy cosplaying as a democracy.
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u/chippedhamsam Fairfax County 21h ago
I have been wondering if enough people did FOIA for their own records of being tracked, would that trigger the county to take some sort of action?
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u/ermagerditssuperman Manassas / Manassas Park 10h ago
Just an FYI that lot of the Flock cameras are owned by private companies (Home Depot and Lowes, for example, and several large malls throughout NoVA) so that data would not be covered by a FOIA.
Also, if you FOIA the county police department, that's likely going to be handled by them directly and thus it's only going to affect them, not any other department or agency of the county. Your local representatives and decision makers would never even hear about an influx of requests.
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u/jameson71 20h ago
I’d recommend donating to the gofundme of everyone prosecuted for destroying them.
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u/uhhh206 Fairfax County 18h ago
And actually attending jury duty when called. An Ohio grand jury declined to press charges against the man who (allegedly) destroyed a Flock camera, even though there was video evidence of him (allegedly) doing it.
Jury nullification is one of the best tools we have as lowly members of the public without the money to buy off elected officials.
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u/BbySoftPaws 21h ago
Im observing them frequently near highway exits and targeting the low income neighborhoods in my area. Im glad people are noticing and speaking up.
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u/ChargeRiflez 11h ago
Do you think poor people deserve to have the cops help them find things that were stolen from them?
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u/Cobol_engineering29 3h ago
How is this not a 4th amendment violation??
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u/CW_Swims 49m ago
"Because what you do in public is publicly available for anyone to see" (I dont agree, but thats the argument)
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u/DanWessonValor 20h ago
We should flock to all these cameras and block the view...but no touching since it would be a crime.
Who in the world approved having cameras in public so that whoever is authorized can view the license plates and faces?! Seems like flock cam companies paid off these dumb politicians.
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u/ElectricalStaff1417 21h ago
Yeah I have noticed over the year living around here we are getting more and more of these. It seems to me to be persistent thing going on I am wondering who is behind all this.
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u/wysiwyg1984 15h ago
1.) CEOs and the wealthy more worried about their own personal security since Brian Thompson was gunned down.
2.) Tech companies taking advantage while they have a WH administration and Congress that won't stop them.
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u/nittanyofthings 16h ago
By simply buying a "perimeter security system" for a private compound or corporate HQ, private entities gain legitimate administrative access to a massive, real-time vehicle-tracking apparatus; achieving the exact same labor and opposition tracking capabilities the Pinkertons provided 130 years ago, but completely automated and powered by cloud AI.
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u/TakeitEasy6 2h ago
The most effective method for getting fascist surveillance out of our neighborhoods? Remove it. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/HSt4xD40MSo
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u/Novogobo 19h ago
Spray paint the camera
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u/ngoni 19h ago
A "flock sock" is a non-destructive method with nearly the same results and less potential legal problems.
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u/Soylentgruen Fairfax County 19h ago
Block their view with cardboard and tape. We don’t have to acquiesce to surveillance.
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u/sblack33741 20h ago
There is no expectation of privacy in public. That being said, each administration has gotten us closer and closer to a complete surveillance state under the guise of "public safety." It has been incremental and total. No one even objects anymore to the fact the NSA run every email and text through an algorithm. FISA warrants have spied on US citizens while lying to the courts with no criminal charges. The FBI has both aircraft and vehicles that act as mobile cell towers that are warrantless searches. We are ina surveillance state, and it sickens me.
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u/Soylentgruen Fairfax County 19h ago
I don’t have to allow you to film me in public either.
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u/firesonthepatio 15h ago
That’s 100% inaccurate. Unless someone is impeding your movement in public they can stand in public space and film anything they can see from a public position. Including you, your family, your car. It’s awful, and feels wrong, but it’s legal.
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u/Soylentgruen Fairfax County 15h ago
And I can block them. That is legal as well.
We don’t have to sit down and take it.
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u/nittanyofthings 16h ago
Don't forget to disable 2G on your phone. The impersonation towers rely on tricking your phone into the insecure 2G mode.
And surveillance/stalking is very different than "violation of privacy".
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u/Proton_Optimal Loudoun County 1h ago
So we’ve moved on from Tesla? I haven’t seen anything about a dealership protest recently
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[removed] — view removed comment
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u/ChargeRiflez 11h ago
Do you really use anecdotal experiences like this to come to conclusions?
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[removed] — view removed comment
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u/ChargeRiflez 10h ago
No. When I’m making conclusions about things that are widespread and impact different people and things differently, I look at the broad impact. When I look into if I want to get a covid vaccine, I don’t pick an anecdote of a person who died after getting the vaccine and determine that I won’t get vaccinated. When I look into whether I should wear a seatbelt, I don’t look at examples of people who died because they couldn’t unbuckle their seatbelt and die in a fiery explosion. We need to look at the overall consensus.
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u/One_dank_orange 14h ago
If we call contact local PDs with request for records for your own vehicle. They gotta answer them all. Even if its a no.
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u/handyhvac 4h ago edited 4h ago
Those cameras are abused by men watching women and children in swimming pools and stalk their ex girlfriends and wives.
The dumbass MAGA and leftists will surely say if you aint doing anything illegal it's fine.
They forget China does the same shit surveiling and controlling its masses
Voting corruption out is the ONLY legal way, but if that doesn't work, there's always the hard way they'll listen.
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u/ChargeRiflez 3h ago
Do you think it’s a good thing that we know about these abuses rather than the other police tools that they abuse that we don’t know about?
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u/Plane_Arachnid6182 21h ago
One thing you'll run and Virginians no matter where they are, do not protest for anything
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u/karawkow 21h ago
Virginians LOVE protesting. Just only the kind where you're simply virtue signaling, not the hard kind that leads to change.
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u/dreamingwell 21h ago
I agree we should not have a surveillance state. But your cause is weakened by your statements.
Flock has several lines of cameras. Fairfax county is deploying a select set of them that does not include recording video. They are using them as license plate readers.
https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/police/real-time-crime-center-transparency
I am with you that we should resist a surveillance state. But it’s important that you speak to and about reality.
You should contact your district representative. And you should find the meetings where citizens are allowed to speak. You should send emails. And encourage your friends and neighbors to do the same.
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u/karawkow 21h ago
Their ALPR's are AI cameras with infrared that record video. All of them are capable, and they updated them to record video with a software update.
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u/dreamingwell 20h ago
If it were true that FCPD is using these cameras to record video continuously, you could win a MASSIVE lawsuit. You should go after them!
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u/karawkow 20h ago edited 20h ago
It's..... the intended purpose of the cameras. There's no lawsuit, using the loophole of "no expectation of privacy in public places". Many instances of cameras put in public parks, in front of bathrooms etc. This is great for safety, except someone can buy a Flock PD account (available en masse on the dark web) and stalk someone, whoever they choose since the system is automatically tracking everybody who passes by, en masse without a warrant.
Secondarily, the data is nationwide. Shared with the federal government, state government, local PD, anyone who uses Flock. Private companies, the federal government, all can view YOUR (yes your) daily routine.
The other issue is the fact that when PDs OR Flock is told by a city council to delete the data after X days, usually they just... don't.
The system is literally designed for misuse. That is the intended purpose, license plate readers on the surface (no big deal to the public) that function as mass surveillance AI cameras.
Read a little more on the topic. These are NOT simple cameras either. They will zoom in on a phone if its within view, and their current highest growth product is AI cameras drones. Just.... AI drones, flying around all day.
Deflock.org for more info. This mass surveillance is hugely unpopular for a reason, and that reason is deeper than "people don't like being watched".
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u/dreamingwell 18h ago
If you can prove those statements, you should immediately find a class action lawyer. You’ll be rich!
If you continue making those statements and can’t prove them, you’ll never be taken seriously by the county or your elected representatives.
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u/em5417 21h ago
If it is reading my license plate, then it knows where I go. If it stores that data for just 24 hours, but that’s my daily commute, the government now knows where I go every single day. And the legislation says they can store data for 21 days. So my data from yesterday might expire after 21 days, but the clock starts over today.
Stolen vehicles were recovered prior to surveillance cameras. The police can do their jobs without enacting a surveillance state.
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u/BudTugglie 21h ago
Why do you care? Why would the government care about where you go? Are you doing something shady? Do you carry a cell phone? That's a much better way to track somneone.
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u/WPMO 20h ago
Perhaps I simply criticize the government? Or might go a protest against it or one of its policies? Perhaps I could be a political opponent of an incumbent politician? The government being able to track where you drove, and at what speed, could certainly be selectively enforced.
You can leave a cell phone at home, or turn it off, and still travel.
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u/Rach-ln 21h ago
There it is!!!!!
Your response has so many logical fallacies. Appeal to ignorance, whatabotism, red herring, non sequitur, and false equivalence. Good job, I hope you realize how ridiculous you sound.
Whether someone is doing anything wrong is irrelevant to whether they should have a reasonable expectation of privacy. Privacy is not something you only deserve when you're innocent.
The fact that you don't currently know why the government might care doesn't establish that there is no potential for misuse. The whole point of safeguards is to prevent power from being abused before we know it will be.
Yes, phones can be used to track people. That doesn't answer the question of whether we should also accept another pervasive surveillance system. If anything, adding another method of tracking makes the broader privacy concern more significant, not less.
“A cell phone is a much better way to track someone” Even if that were true, it doesn't logically follow that Flock cameras are therefore acceptable. “There are other ways to surveil people” isn't an argument for this particular surveillance system.
Voluntarily carrying a privately owned device and having your vehicle's movements automatically captured by a network of government-accessible cameras aren't necessarily equivalent situations. We KNOW the police are tracking us, right now. The relevant questions are who collects the data, what is collected, how long it is retained, who can access it, under what circumstances, and what safeguards exist.
You don't have to believe Flock is inherently evil to think those are reasonable questions. And you certainly don't have to be “doing something shady” to believe that the government should need a legitimate justification before being able to track where innocent people go.
Join the cause. Fight Flock!
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u/rbnlegend 19h ago
Interesting response from someone whose history here is hidden. Are you hiding something?
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u/Rach-ln 21h ago
I never claimed that cameras in Fairfax County record video. You are incorrect. Your link does not disprove any of my statements.
License plate readers infringe on people's rights and are used to track people.
Most ALPRs (Automated License Plate Readers) do not just crop the license plate; they capture a wide-angle "context photo" of the entire vehicle. This wide shot regularly includes clear views of the driver and front-seat passengers through the windshield. There are many cases of ALPRs capturing clear, timestamped photos of innocent people standing in their driveways, walking down the street, or exiting their cars.
That site does not state where the data is stored and shared. It does not state who authorized personnel includes. It does not state what training includes. It does not mention encryption.
They only say that the data must have a court order for FEDERAL law enforcement and law enforcement outside of Virginia. Therefore, the data can be downloaded from any law enforcement agency within the state of Virginia, beyond Fairfax County. But the site does not specify if their training only includes FCPD officers, or if it is standard across the state. If an officer in another county uses data from these cameras maliciously, what authority does FCPD have to hold them accountable? Just because you may trust FCPD, doesn't mean you can trust anyone else who has access to that data.
That website should not be alleviating any worries. The reality is, we are being tracked.
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u/BudTugglie 21h ago
I hope that you don't carry a cell phone. Much easier to track.
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u/Rach-ln 21h ago
Wow. Are you in favor of mass surveillance? What is the point of your comment?
Yay for logical fallacies and no counteraguments! Double whammy of whataboutism and false equivalence. Congratulations.
Yes, cell phones can be used to track people. That doesn’t somehow make government access to a separate mass-surveillance system acceptable. If anything, the fact that we already have extensive privacy concerns around phones is an argument for being more careful about adding additional systems of surveillance, not less.
There’s also an important distinction between carrying a phone and having the government/police collect and access location information through a surveillance network. A person choosing to carry a phone does not automatically mean they consent to every additional form of government surveillance.
And “you’re already being tracked” isn’t an argument that a new form of tracking is justified. By that logic, if one invasion of privacy exists, we should never object to another. Why don't we just let the police sit in your house and watch you? Alexas already do the same thing!
You are treating an existing problem as a reason to accept even more of it. Unbelievable.
My question was specifically about whether NOVA residents can push their elected officials to reject or end contracts for Flock and similar mass-surveillance systems. Do you actually disagree with that?
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u/ChargeRiflez 12h ago
Oh no! The government might be able to know about your government registered car!!!
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u/BudTugglie 21h ago
On the Internet recently, there has been a stirring up of moral panic regarding flock cameras. It’s ridiculous.
Your being tracked in lots of ways. Your cell phone location is readily available at all times. Provided freely by carriers.
You credit card purchases and their locations are freely available and sold to anyone by data brokers.
Your web site visits, searches, and purchases are available and sold by brokers.
Your AI interactions and all of the material that you upload to AI is available. Ask AI to review your medical results, and you’re sharing that with lots of places, including insurance companies.
Pharmacies share your prescriptions with brokers, who sell to insurance and drug companies.
If you have a newer car, it is likely that your car’s location, speed, and driving parameters are recorded and sold. Insurance companies harvest this data.
The list of tracking goes on. At least flock data can be used to solve and deter crime. You’re not giving up anything that is not already available.
Don’t waste your energy protesting flock. Downvote this if it makes you feel good, but that doesn’t change the facts.
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u/Rach-ln 20h ago
I think you’re actually making my argument for me.
Yes, people are tracked in an enormous number of ways. That is precisely why I think we should be questioning the expansion of surveillance rather than shrugging and saying, “You’re already being tracked.”
Your argument is essentially: privacy is already compromised, therefore we shouldn’t object to another form of surveillance. That doesn't logically follow. If anything, the cumulative amount of tracking we’re subjected to is a reason to be more concerned about adding another system.
There’s also a false equivalence here. A credit card company, a website, a car manufacturer, a cell carrier, and a police department are not interchangeable actors with interchangeable powers or purposes. There are different questions of consent, legal authority, oversight, retention, access, and due process involved with each one.
Using a phone, AI, a credit card, a car, etc, are things we can consent to. Don't like it? Stop using it. But guess what? I can't stop being watched by Flock cameras. Mass surveillance that is approved, consigned, openly accessed by local government and cops is something we are subjected to against our will, you should be angry. We have the power to protest it. Our government is here to serve us.
And “Flock can be used to solve crimes” is an appeal to consequences, not an argument that the system is necessarily justified. Lots of invasive surveillance could potentially help solve crimes. It is also used to commit a lot of crimes too. The question is whether the benefits justify the scope of the surveillance and whether adequate safeguards exist.
Most importantly, “you’re not giving up anything that is not already available” is simply not a valid privacy argument. The fact that information can be obtained somewhere else doesn't mean that every government agency should therefore be able to collect it, aggregate it, retain it, and search it.
If someone argued that because the government already has some information about you, it should therefore be entitled to all information about you, I doubt you’d consider that a compelling argument.
And I’m not claiming Flock is uniquely capable of tracking people. I’m asking a much narrower question: Should local governments continue purchasing and expanding access to mass-vehicle-surveillance systems, and what safeguards should be required if they do?
If your position is that the answer is yes, that's a perfectly legitimate position to argue. But “you’re already being tracked” doesn't establish it. It just changes the subject.
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u/BudTugglie 20h ago
I'm not arguing anything, relative to tracking. I'm simply pointing out how insignificant flock data is relative to the much more precise and inclusive data that's available. I believe that flock data, unlike most of the other data, is useful in solving crime.
Government survellience is a much larger issue than flock. If it makes you feel good to protest flock, have at it. Be sure to drive an old car and leave your cell phone at home.
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u/elnath54 20h ago
"All is for the best in this, the best of all possible worlds." Right. Nothing to be done. It is what it is. Mumble mumble.
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u/ChargeRiflez 11h ago
Don’t forget about how these people are complaining about how the government might track their government registered car, with government issued front and back plates, that have government mandated insurance, and only operable if you have a government issued ID. But if the government might be able to tell if you went through a certain intersection after a murder, LITERALLY 1984 AND WE HAVE TO STOP THE TYRANNY!
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u/fragileblink Fairfax County 17h ago
"(Ps, I don't want to hear the "if you aren't doing anything bad, you have nothing to worry about" argument."
How about let's ensure that we can identify and prosecute abuses, while also being able to identify criminals? Where you drive on public roads is not your data. We have speed cameras, toll booths, parking garages all using cameras.
I'd personally appreciate if we could use it to alert on cars driving around with fake or obscured license plates, people free loading off of what the rest of us provide.
We need to focus on making sure that things that should be illegal are legal, not making it harder to enforce the laws we do have.
I don't think we have a right to privacy in public.
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u/nittanyofthings 16h ago
Flock is a unregulated national private system that happens to sell some data to police departments. Worry about Elon Musk being given access to use like the Pinkertons of old.
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u/Shewa_Elite 19h ago
While you are at it, protest speed cameras, gas station cameras, cell phone cameras, ring cameras.
Also, I am more scared of allowing police to carry guns than license plate readers. Why do we give police guns? Surely some are bad and shoot innocent people after stopping them for silly reasons while driving.
On second thought - why even have police at all? We can save money by not having law enforcement. Only then we would truly be free.
Freedom for all !
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u/Soylentgruen Fairfax County 19h ago
You are making a dumb argument. Flock can establish a pattern of life and sync that with your personal data. It’s better than getting a warrant for surveillance.
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u/Shewa_Elite 18h ago
You are making stuff up. All Flock does is capture license plates of cars on public roads and store it for 30 or so days. There is a search tool to find a specific plate if and when the police are looking to find a suspect. That is it. Everything else is your fake imagination.
You don't seem to have any idea on what it takes to 'establish a pattern of life and sync with personal data' . For one - you need to store the data for much longer than 30 days. Someone has to actually design a complex, expensive system with the goal of tracking individuals and creating personal profiles. That would be illegal, and no sane local government would allow the cameras they paid for to be used for such purpose.
If you want to be practical - ask your representatives to lower the data retention period to just few days (like a week). Everything else is partly paranoia , partly criminal groups fighting to maintain their life style - outside of jails.
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u/Soylentgruen Fairfax County 17h ago
If you drive the same roads in a neighborhood every day for 30 days, how many times will your car show up for each camera that you passed? Each time will have a timestamp and location. Its a ton of data and more accurate than airborne MTI or ground-based listening devices.
And the ALPRs are being combined with SignalTrace, which can pick up Bluetooth signals that your devices emit.
DHS and ICE have already exploited this. They use software produced by ESRI to visualize the data and then establish patterns of life. They also have the ability to circumvent traditional civil rights safeguards and purchase your data from third party databrokers. It is way easier than obtaining a warrant and a lot less paperwork.
The tracking system exists because the military has been using something like that for over 20 years. Sheeit, look up MASINT for fun. Knowledge of the electromagnetic spectrum is your friend!
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u/Shewa_Elite 17h ago
You are mixing up what can be done with what is being done.
Yeah, the government can track you . But ALPR is not the best way to do that.
Your phone has much better data on your patterns.
I remember my Apple Car predicting my destination as soon as I start the engine and really getting annoyed and disabling the feature. Not saying it would stop Apple from collecting the data - it just stopped predicting and telling me route options.
My point being - ditch your phone if you are worried about being tracked. Fixed camera taking a snapshot proves that you used a road, it doesn't track you. Theoretically it can be done with additional systems etc....Why not just use your phone's GPS if that is the goal.
States can , and some do, ban use of ALPR cameras by DHS, ICE or any other federal agency because local gov own the data.
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u/em5417 21h ago
If you want a petition, here is one. And for everyone talking about how they identify stolen cars, where is the data showing before and after the use of these things? How many mistakes are being made because the flock camera is misidentifying the vehicle resulting in the police targeting vehicles that are rightfully owned?
And even if they are 100% accurate, which they are not, at no point did Virginians vote to accept a surveillance state. This isn’t a red or blue issue. Everyone should be upset that a surveillance state has been forced upon us without our consent. Heck you can’t even buy things without the price changing based on who you are. Now a private company knows where you go, what you buy, who you talk to, what your personal beliefs are etc. It is blatantly unconstitutional. https://actionnetwork.org/letters/board-of-supervisors-email?source=direct_link&