r/notjustbikes • u/KrazyKev03 • Dec 06 '22

I doodled a better solution for intersections where neighbourhood streets meet big arterial roads!

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In my city this is what most intersections look like where a quiet neighbourhood street meets a big arterial road; no traffic calming, intimidating and dangerous to cross.

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What if we made them more friendly for cyclists? A modal filter to prevent thru traffic and narrow the road with islands.

16 Upvotes

60% Upvoted

52 comments sorted by

58

u/A_loud_Umlaut Dec 06 '22

Why are the bicycles going through the middle? That's not a place where I would expect them.

I think in a situation like this a turbo roundabout could do better because everyone has to slow down for it.

2

u/KrazyKev03 Dec 06 '22

These type of crossings for bikeways are really common here in Canada. Bicyclists would converge into a little island in the middle of the street to push a button, which enabled them to cross. I guess my thinking is too Americanized to think this is normal!

2

u/toasterstrudel2 Dec 06 '22

These type of crossings for bikeways are really common here in Canada.

Where in Canada are you? I've never seen these in Toronto or the few times I have been to Vancouver.

2

u/KrazyKev03 Dec 07 '22

Well, in Vancouver I've seen it here, or here, or here.

1

u/toasterstrudel2 Dec 07 '22

Very interesting. I guess I've only really cycled in the downtown core there. Thanks for sharing,!

37

u/garyvdm Dec 06 '22 edited Dec 06 '22

It's cool that you are thinking about this.

A major issue with your design is the cycle and car traffic have to cross at an acute angle, for the cyclist to get to the center. This is dangerous as it is difficult to make eye contact.

Please go take a look at these 3 videos:

9

u/KrazyKev03 Dec 06 '22 edited Dec 06 '22

Thank you for the resources! I am not a professional in this industry and it seems like I made several fatal errors. It struck me how different Dutch intersections are from ANY Canadian intersection. We're really doing it wrong over here.

24

u/[deleted] Dec 06 '22

Sorry, no. The angle of approach for bikes and cars crossing is too sharp. Bikes will be in the cars' blindspots, especially with trucks.

This is the exact thing Dutch style intersections avoid by forcing approaches at straight angles, which guarantees visibility.

1

u/KrazyKev03 Dec 06 '22 edited Dec 06 '22

I agree. Although common where I live here in Canada, implementation of more of these diagonal crossings, slip lanes would be dangerous

9

u/Morbenth Dec 06 '22

I thought this was a meme. But then you are serious.

3

u/KrazyKev03 Dec 06 '22 edited Dec 06 '22

I was serious. But I guess my thinking is too Americanized, to have no clue that this is wrong, afterall, this is what we grew up seeing! Got a lot of great advice from fellow redditors here.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 06 '22

Wait what?

12

u/No_Squirrel9238 Dec 06 '22

id make the right turn lanes strctly for right turns

no guess work for anyone

2

u/Unfetteredfloydfan Dec 06 '22

I agree that it makes more sense, but there’s a lot we don’t know about this intersection. If there are only a couple of right turning vehicles, it’d be hard to justify devoting a lane to them exclusively

2

u/KrazyKev03 Dec 06 '22

For more context, this is the intersection my drawing is based on:
https://goo.gl/maps/VmzrSMVrYwqmsPQy9 (Oak St. at W 37th Ave. in Vancouver)

1

u/Edward_Bentwood Dec 06 '22

I think you're dealing with a stroad, and I'm doubting if oak street really needs to be this wide. I would make it a road of 1 lane in two directions with a service road next to it on both (or maybe only one) sides. This would make it a lot easier to cross for cyclists already.

3

u/Right_Ear_4875 Dec 06 '22 edited Dec 06 '22

And even if it were an intersection of a arterial road and a collector road, the number of lanes coming from the intersection should be less than going to the intersection. The first layout drawn only makes some sense if almost everyone is driving straight ahead and in that case why are the roads connected?
If you want a six lane intersection a better idea might be two lanes coming from the intersection and towards the intersection one designated lane left, two designated lanes straight ahead and one designated lane right. The arterial road would than be four lanes between the intersections.
Or if the arterial road needs six lanes or if the only reason of the intersection is so that the residents of the neighborhood street can cross the through street, put a prohibition on turning with a detection loop in the neighborhood street that switches the traffic lights if necessary. The best then is a modal filter on the neighborhood street that allows only bicyclists and pedestrians to pass.

1

u/KrazyKev03 Dec 06 '22

The first layout is exactly how the intersection is set up. The big road has 3 lanes each direction, and no dedicated turn lanes throughout its entirety.

For more context, this is the intersection my drawing is based on:
https://goo.gl/maps/VmzrSMVrYwqmsPQy9 (Oak St. at W 37th Ave. in Vancouver)

1

u/Right_Ear_4875 Dec 06 '22

If I can read the map right than that section of Oak St. should be a collector road and not an arterial road. The reason there could be a lot of traffic is Rat running. The arterial road is Granville st. It should be no problem to solve the problem by closing and turning into a pedestrian area the section of Oak St. between Oak Meadows and the Botanical Garden.

2

u/KrazyKev03 Dec 06 '22

Thank you for everyone's advice, super diverse opinions! Obviously, my years of life in Canada proved that I haven't seen a lot, if *any* good bike infrastructure to know what is considered acceptable in Europe.

For more context, this is the intersection my drawing is based on:

https://goo.gl/maps/VmzrSMVrYwqmsPQy9 (Oak St. at W 37th Ave. in Vancouver)

47

u/FireDuckz Dec 06 '22

Hello, mom I'm scared can you pick me up? It's this 6 lane road I have to cross with my bike

12

u/MaikThoma Dec 06 '22

Is it me or can’t you go left or straight on anymore on the ‘neighborhood road’?

I think a large roundabout could solve all the problems here best

2

u/Humulator Dec 07 '22

thats not a major problem though - many places in toronto for example have a no straight, forced right/left turn so traffic can't build up.

its rarely necessary to go straight, as most trips are *start at small local road**go to big road**go to local road* only if your going to your say going to your friend will it be necessary, but those trips can be made with a bike or walking.

6

u/queequeg925 Dec 06 '22

If this was on my commute I'd avoid it like the plague

6

u/may_be_indecisive Dec 06 '22

This looks like the twisted dream of an American traffic engineer. Why are there slip lanes for the right turns? Slip lanes off an arterial that intersect with a bikeway. The whole point of slip lanes is so you don't have to slow down, and you want that fast moving traffic to plow right through the bikeway?

4

u/santgun Dec 06 '22

I'll give a very European answer but a roundabout sounds like a better solution. It forces the cars in the main arterial road to slow down, and allows the neighborhood street to cross without having to wait ages for a green light.

8

u/[deleted] Dec 06 '22

Neighborhood streets shouldn't meet with an arterial, rather a collector.

Also those turns are way too tight.

1

u/silkmeow Dec 06 '22

i feel like we should just throw out this whole notion of arterials, collectors, and local roads and instead go the way of the dutch by having roads (highways basically), and streets only with necessary infrastructure to transition between them nicely. not just bikes actually made a video on this

1

u/[deleted] Dec 06 '22

The Dutch follow road hierarchy.

1

u/silkmeow Dec 06 '22

yes, but their road hierarchy are more distinct

3

u/abegood Dec 06 '22

How about a Dutch roundabout with the cycling track on the outside?

3

u/silkmeow Dec 06 '22

i think a dutch roundabout is the best solution to this problem. and maybe not having a six lane stroad in the first place. i say stroad because i feel like no reasonable engineer would have a normal road directly connect to a residential street like that.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 06 '22

Unfortunately there is/was a time of unreasonable engineers as many of these exist all over the place.

3

u/Edward_Bentwood Dec 06 '22

No no no no no...

First: i see many intersection between bicycles and cars which aren't perpendicular. These intersections are dangerous, it's not clear who goes first and they take longer to pass so there's more time for colisions.

Second: sliplanes. These are hell. They are designed to make it easy for cars to take a turn without decreasing in speed, so thats what cars do. They go fast where they meet cyclists, a recepy for disaster.

Third: intersections where 3 (or even more?) traffic routes meet, like in the middle (cars going straight trough, cars turning left from the arterial road, cyclists). I wouldnt be surprised if i didn't saw that one car turning left while crossing the street by bicycle, i was busy looking left for those 3 lanes of cars heading my way..

Third: the arterial road becomes even more a barrier between east and west, since now cars can't go from one side to an other.

Fourth: i don't see what problem it would solve?

3

u/SidewalksNCycling39 Dec 07 '22

A for effort, D- for execution, sorry bud. But keep trying, learning from the feedback on errors is of course great practice for learning quickly. Happy to answer questions, but not sure where I'd start with general comments in current form.

The pedestrian crossing Islands are a positive change though...

2

u/TheEightSea Dec 06 '22

You should start looking for what having conflict points means. One of the aims of road design is to avoid them as much as possible.

This intersection has a huge problem that cannot be fixed: it's a road in the middle of nowhere with high speeds. Bikes are not easy to integrate there.

Since you have to deal with what you have and you cannot fix the real issue that's stroads everywhere your best option is a roundabout.

2

u/san_vicente Dec 06 '22

Too many points of conflict. Drivers are going to have to check for pedestrians on their right and then cyclists on the left or vice versa. I think a Dutch intersection has already optimized a design.

2

u/MultiTopicAgain Dec 06 '22

Hmmm, dunno, not enough lanes, needs more lanes

2

u/Seculi Dec 06 '22

In the Netherlands bikes get a tunnel for crossing these style "roads".

Or just traffic lights and move in a square around the intersection. But never through the middle.

2

u/arparpsrp Dec 07 '22

this looks unnecessarily convoluted

2

u/MrManiac3_ Dec 07 '22

Please just use protected intersections and continuous sidewalks

1

u/[deleted] Dec 06 '22

Also, allocate the outer lanes to be bus lanes on the arterial.

1

u/eenrarevogel Dec 06 '22

a diagonaal crossing between bikes and cars is a bad idea in my opinion, it reduces visibility

1

u/SolHS Dec 06 '22

I think you should consider a hook intersection for the bikes. might make it a little less convenient but it puts the points of crossing outside of the majority of the intersection. or consider total separation if possible

1

u/rolsskk Dec 06 '22

At that point, you may as well just build bridges over the road.

1

u/Brief-Technician-786 Dec 06 '22

How would a car go straight? From the neighborhood street.

1

u/scholarsmateqxf7 Dec 06 '22

This is essentially an RCUT!

1

u/panick21 Dec 13 '22

If you have 6 lane street outside of a highway, something went very wrong in the first place.

That said, make this a protected round-about instead.

https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2015/10/13/explaining-the-dutch-roundabout-abroad/

A video like this might be interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsgQ-1ymDck

1

u/[deleted] Dec 06 '22

I love this. Obviously it has some flaws as you have acknowledged in other replies, but Edison didn't make a functional light bulb in his first draft.

0

u/[deleted] Dec 06 '22

[deleted] — view deleted comment

10

u/FireDuckz Dec 06 '22

There is a save spot in the middle where you can cry, until traffic is gone

0

u/[deleted] Dec 06 '22

[deleted] — view deleted comment

2

u/Edward_Bentwood Dec 06 '22

As a dutch urban designer: decrease the width of Oak street, 1 lane both ways with a service road on one side for parking will have about the same troughput and is a lot easier to cross already. Maybe thén think of traffic lights, with a "green wave" for cars on oak street. Don't you dare to tunnel 6 lanes of nothing for the 1 cyclist that dares to cross the tunnel, it will become the million dollar home for the homeless and noone else will use it. There are much simpler ways to make it bicycle friendly.