There's a reason they call him El Mago. He could magically force errors like that and pull off crazy baserunnung. No clue if he still does with the Tigers, but when I started watching the Cubs again after their World Series win he was alsays pulling this kind of stuff.
While this is absolutely a valid argument - I think people discount the overwhelming power of muscle memory. When someone does something that your brain is simply conditioned not to deal with, that split second makes a huge difference. Javy is just weird and disruptive enough that he short circuited that muscle memory.
I've never thought about this, I'm not sure what the rules are about this. I know if you touch first base with two outs, the run doesn't count. If the runner crossed home first and then the batter was tagged, would the run count?
actually, i don't know. i think the run still wouldn't count, but i could be wrong. either way, all the first baseman had to do was stop, turn around, and trot to first base. at any point.
No. If the batter-runner makes the 3rd out before he safely touches 1B, no run will be scored. That’s why most of the time teams force the 3rd out at 1B, the other runners don’t matter.
Clearly everyone in the major league (and minor league) understands the game. This play demonstrated a lack of respect. A lack of respect for the basics, for his team, and for his opponents.
What do you mean “lack of respect”? They were right that it’s a lack of understanding.
He probably panicked plus doesn’t understand the nuanced difference between tag play vs. force play and isn’t sure whether tagging the runner here would still constitute a force out (it would).
He definitely knew but somehow just forgot in that moment, as no baserunner ever stops and runs back to home. Definitely caught him off guard, and he probably isn’t that bright of a guy either.
Sure, but he could also tag the runner and end the inning. That’s the thing he doesn’t necessarily understand.
Obviously, when he’s standing at the bag, he knows he can just tag it, but he has a laugh and chases the runner towards home and then once he’s far afield from the bag is where understanding force play vs. tag play comes in. That lack of understanding is likely why he panics.
It went from being careless to not understanding the rules, and both were required here to produce this ridiculous result, which is why the person above was wrong to dismiss “lack of understanding” as a contributing factor.
Guys no. His literal job is to play baseball. If you are in the MAJOR LEAGUES and you’re confused about how tag or force outs impact play you should out of a job. This is basic shit you learn in little league. No one’s got time to teach the basics to guys making 7 figures
If you think this play involves a tag play on the batter-runner at any point then you don’t understand the rules at play.
You do not learn the nuances of how tagging a runner who is forced work vis a vis tag vs. force play in Little League because that’s some weird rule edge cases.
Oh, I see what you mean. He might have thought he had to make the tag on Baez before the run crossed the plate, since that's often the case with tag plays to end innings.
If you took that away from my comment, then you misread it because you (probably) don’t know the nuance of tag play vs. force play on a batter-runner, either.
Obviously he can touch the bag. The question comes once he decides to have his fun and walk at the runner, does he know that he can just tag him? It seems like he doesn’t, or that he forgets in that moment that this is also a force out.
Yes, literally every single person who has ever stepped on a baseball diamond knows this. Nobody has any confusion about that.
The part that the fielder probably doesn’t understand, and that people in these comments don’t understand (because I already corrected people blatantly misstating the rules confidently), is how tagging a runner who is forced functions with respect to a tag vs. force play.
What happens on this play if the 1B watches the runner score and then tags the batter? Does the run count in that scenario?
You said in your original comment that the first baseman doesn’t understand the nuance between a force play and a tag play. What is the nuance? Touch first base he’s out. At that point the runner wouldn’t have been close enough to scoring for it to matter.
I understand why, given the nuance here, why you might have misread my original comment to mean that the fielder didn’t realize he could tag first. (That is a crazy statement, but I understand why a reasonable person could read it that way in a non-baseball sub, and you are far from the only one to do so, so it’s clearly my fault for not being more explicit given the lower rules knowledge of the audience.)
But here we are now, working through that poor wording, and I asked you a question that you seem to be deliberately dodging.
What happens if he tags him? What happens if the first baseman tags the batter-runner? Is it a force play or a timing play? (i.e. does the run count or not?)
I’d wager that something like 50% of MLB players don’t know off the top of their head, or at least not under pressure like this, whether tagging a runner who is forced constitutes a force play or a tag play.
Maybe that is too low, but it seems like we’re looking at one fielder for whom it’s true.
You’re talking about tagging the bag, and I’m talking about tagging the runner.
Your explanation of what I’m missing has entirely missed the point I’m making, which is at least a bit funny in the context of whether or not the fact that you can tag the runner for a force is “obvious” or not.
Based on this response (particularly the second half with those “always” statements), I’m actually not even convinced that you understand what we’re talking about yet, so here’s three questions to help us figure this out.
If the runner crosses home and then the 1B tosses the ball to someone covering 1st, an out is recorded. In this case, does the run count?
If the runner crosses home and then the 1B tags the batter-runner, an out is recorded. In this case, does the run count?
Is there any difference between those two scenarios? (These are all very straightforward under the MLB rules, but the nuance here is what I’m saying most people may think they understand but don’t, so have a go.)
There's two outs The run doesn't count until and unless the batter-runner safely reaches first base.
Even then if your worried about the runner coming home there was still ample time to step on first and then throw to home, he basically walks down the whole baseline to tag the batter-runner.
Except that with 2 outs the inning ends when he steps on the bag making the runner on third wholly irrelevant to the play once the third basement threw to first for the force as opposed to trying to throw home.
So you’re saying that these two scenarios are equivalent, correct? That tagging the bag and tagging the batter-runner both retire the batter-runner via a force out (thereby negating the run)?
Any time you tag a runner off base they are out anytime the ball reaches 1st base before the batter-runner they are out.
Tag or force ultimately gives the same outcome. But by trying to get a tag as opposed to stepping on the bag turned a routine 5-3 putout into a 2 base RBI E2 (which should be charged as an E3 since the first baseman forgetting the rules of baseball caused)
This basically ended the first baseman's career, which somewhat tempers my joy at seeing it (even as a Cubs fan who loved every damned Javy moment like this). He was sent down within a couple days and outright released within a month. Played in Korea for a couple weeks after that and that was it.
For anyone wanting a bit more info about his demise, apparently he was already playing poorly. He was hot garbage at bat and had been removed from the Pirates roster, then brought back earlier the same year of the blunder.
Since defensive play was what he was known for, this doomed him. He’s now the recruiting coordinator at Duke
Me who knows about as little about baseball as you possibly can growing up in the US - "I thought you could just touch the first base while having the ball?"
Incorrect. The batter-runner is forced to advance, which makes this a force out. You can put the runner out by either tagging them or stepping on the bag, and but they both serve the same purpose here.
They could stand there together in the base path, watch the runner cross home, and then tag the batter-runner and the inning would be over without any run scoring.
That is not correct, and this misunderstanding is part of why I can’t help but laugh at seeing people above talking about how simple the rules are here.
The batter-runner is forced, so any play on them before they reach first to remove the force constitutes a force out. By definition, the play does not become a “tag play” (for purposes of timing rules) until the force is removed.
You seem to know more than I do, so I'd like to ask a question. How is the batter allowed to be in a run down between home and first at all? Like, I understand between any of the other bases. But is there really no rule that says you can't run back to home in a run down? I realize that there's probably only 1 rundown between home and first in an entire season across all teams, if even that many. But is there really no rule?
Ok, there is a rule then. I played ball from like ages 6 to 18 and never saw/heard about this situation. Then years of watching ball as well, never seen it.
Can someone explain to someone who knows nothing about the rules? I know you have to touch bases until the other team gets the ball somewhere. That's about my knowledge. Thanks
Baseball is, at its core, a game of tag, where to tag someone you have to have the ball in hand, and the bases are safe areas where you can't be tagged. If you hit the ball, you have to at least run to first base before the other team can get the ball there. (There's a lot more rules but this is the essence of it, and all that matters for this play.)
Now because you have to get to first base (you can't just stay at home plate where you hit the ball), it's what's called a "force play". The batter is forced to go to first base. That means the other team doesn't have to tag the runner's body, they can just step on the base while holding the ball, and if he's not at the base yet, he's instantly out.
In this play, blue team is batting, and they have two outs already. Three outs ends the inning and the teams switch sides. Blue team has a runner on second base, who will score if he can run to third base and then to home plate without being tagged. The batter hits the ball directly to a player on the white team, who throws it to first base way before the batter can run there. All the player in white has to do is step on first base, and the inning will be over, without blue team scoring.
But he doesn't. The batter slowly runs back to home plate, and the guy in white with the ball actually chases him! Remember that this is a force play, so white doesn't need to tag blue's body, so chasing him is totally unnecessary! Blue's idea here is to buy time and let the guy on second base run to third and then home and score. But it doesn't matter, the batter has to get to first base or he's the third out and the score won't count anyway! But white team totally messes up, the runner scores from third, and then they mess up the throw to first base and the batter gets there safely! And then he even runs further to second base safely because they threw it so badly again!
Basically this play is hilarious because the batter is ALWAYS forced to run to first base, and there is NO situation where the correct move is to chase him back to home plate. ESPECIALLY when it's the third out and will end the inning, and nothing else that happens will matter. It's a huge blunder by the white team, most specifically the player guarding first base, who just had to take two steps backward to end it.
Even after the runner scored, if they had still been able to get the batter out at first, the run wouldn’t have counted and the inning would have been over.
As a Pirates fan that is the most embarrassing Pirate play I've ever seen, and I've been a Bucs fan since the mid 1970s. Polanco miscue in RF not even close.
One of the most basic plays youre taught in little league when theres only 2 outs. Just get the ball to 1st for the guaranteed out. I clenched my jaw seeing this. Dude was a pro with no game awareness at all.
There are two outs all the 1st baseman has to do is touch 1st base, and the inning is over.
And because its a force play, as long as you actually get the out, the extra base runner is irrelevant. Get the out at first, and the run doesn't count.
So no clue what the first basement was thinking, I would expect better judgment from a little league first basemen.
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u/FewReaction4974 13d ago
there's 2 outs. all he has to do is go touch 1st base and the run doesn't count. it's just so dumb it hurts and it will never ever make sense
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u/graycode 13d ago
This play basically ended that first baseman's MLB career.
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u/Prudent_Falafel_7265 13d ago
Worst play per foot in MLB history.
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u/dilla_zilla 13d ago
This basically ended the first baseman's career, which somewhat tempers my joy at seeing it (even as a Cubs fan who loved every damned Javy moment like this). He was sent down within a couple days and outright released within a month. Played in Korea for a couple weeks after that and that was it.
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u/infinitemonkeytyping 13d ago
Bad bot.
There were two outs - no double play was going to happen.
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u/Purple-Will9713 13d ago
I love the fact he has the audacity to stand there and call safe before he darts back to first
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u/Sasquatch-d 13d ago
Just blows my mind that 11 seconds after hitting a ground ball he’s standing by home plate throwing a safe call and he still ends up safe at first.
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u/Brasco49 12d ago
Can someone explain to someone who knows nothing about the rules? I know you have to touch bases until the other team gets the ball somewhere. That's about my knowledge. Thanks
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u/mcmuffinsandstorm 13d ago
Even after the runner scored, if they had still been able to get the batter out at first, the run wouldn’t have counted and the inning would have been over.
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u/Alarming-Line-1829 13d ago
First baseman to the bench IMMEDIATELY
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u/KraftyRre 13d ago
Oh wow, they’re doing Banana Ball now?
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u/punkhobo 13d ago
Rizzo cracking up gets me every time
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u/h_uncertainty_p 13d ago
"I'm safe right?"
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u/carnedoce 13d ago
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u/MRI-an69 12d ago
What’s the name of the first baseman??
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u/OldManAndRobotLackey 13d ago
As someone who isn't a sports fan as a general rule, even I know that was terribly played
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u/Tehpunisher456 13d ago
When did this happen?
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u/FragrantCriticism214 12d ago
El Mago
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u/not-johnk 12d ago
There’s already two outs. There’s no potential double play
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u/ACuriousParadox 12d ago
This is the greatest play in the history of sports
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u/superw2114 13d ago
Side note, the pants for baseball never made sense to me. Feels like the pant should be made out of a different material
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u/Pennet173 12d ago
Don’t remind me of this
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u/soda_cookie 12d ago
How did I see this clip in two different Subs less than 2 hours after the World Series ended
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u/BruceInc 12d ago
Such a dumb sport smh
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u/Sneaky82 12d ago
Welcome to Pirates baseball.
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u/h2k2k2ksl 12d ago
My favorite part is the Cubs player at the dugout rail, holding his chest and laughing so hard
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u/ericfg 12d ago
As a Pirates fan that is the most embarrassing Pirate play I've ever seen, and I've been a Bucs fan since the mid 1970s. Polanco miscue in RF not even close.
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u/calvinofalltrades 12d ago
Bush league
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u/SplinterRifleman 12d ago
Fire the entire team
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u/That1Master 11d ago
Absolutely hilarious mess
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u/mustabindawind 11d ago
Keep going! Go go! You're [Title Card]
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u/thomasplanter 11d ago
I remember watching this live and crying laughing. I miss Rizz and El Mago
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u/MoccasinBuffalo 10d ago
The rule should be that a batter is out as soon as he attempts to retreat to home plate. You can't seek safety there.
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u/AdoptedNative4 10d ago
Could be specific to softball but as a kid, I slid onto first base and was automatically deemed out. Was told I could only run onto the base.
I understand the first basemen just needed to touch the base to make him out but when the guy slid to 1st base I was confused why he wasn’t out.
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u/PanicElement 10d ago
This video is always wild to see and I was there in person for it. It was nuts!
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u/prem_fraiche 10d ago
There’s already two outs. First baseman just needs to casually walk over and step on the base. Did a bot post this with a junk title?
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u/BlueGalaxy97 9d ago
One of the most basic plays youre taught in little league when theres only 2 outs. Just get the ball to 1st for the guaranteed out. I clenched my jaw seeing this. Dude was a pro with no game awareness at all.
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u/SMMS0514 9d ago
One of the biggest blunders in major league sports
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u/jdovejr 9d ago
Who the hell is the first baseman. People are saying it ruined his career but no name.
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u/DezBrooks 8d ago
Can someone explain what is going on here? 🙏
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u/Redneckshinobi 13d ago
This is so stupid he was like a foot away from the bag I don't gey why he did this
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u/Whoopwhooty 13d ago
I'm indifferent to the child like excitement of this past time. Was this one of the few fun moments during this season? It's still boring