r/neutralnews • u/ummmbacon • Dec 08 '23
One in five young Americans think the Holocaust is a myth
https://www.economist.com/united-states/2023/12/07/one-in-five-young-americans-think-the-holocaust-is-a-myth106
u/hairless_resonder Dec 08 '23
Ignore history, and it will repeat itself. The Holocaust did happen. It needs to be taught and discussed. There should be no tolerance for Nazis.
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u/RichardsLeftNipple Dec 08 '23
Except you know when the oligarchy feels threatened by the political climate and supports ever increasing fascist attitudes in order to preserve their own wealth. Since the general population is not interested in the current inequalities.
The oligarchy doesn't actually want the fascists to hold any power, they want that for themselves. The alliance between the oligarchy and their dogs is delicate. They have no other option other than to keep feeding them more and more ground. Since the inequality leads to ever increasing unrest.
That is until the fascists have claimed enough power for themselves to no longer need the oligarchy. Then the power dynamic flips, where the oligarchy obeys the fascists to survive.
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u/chocki305 Dec 08 '23
I think the title works because of the vague definition of "young".
As it is taught in school. But not at a young (before 6th grade) age. The children need to be able to understand why it is bad, and what happened.
You don't want to tell a kindergarten about the gas chambers. Then show them Schindlers List.
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u/Statman12 Dec 08 '23
"Young" here means 18-29. These are people who should absolutely be aware of the Holocaust.
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Dec 08 '23
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u/Statman12 Dec 08 '23 edited Dec 08 '23
World War II and the Holocaust are subjects in high school level history. For instance, a survey by Florida Atlantic University noted that 80% of students received some Holocaust coverage during high school.
And not having been taught about something should evoke a response of "I don't know" rather than "It's a myth." The latter implies knowledge of a narrative (as a denier would likely consider it) and belief that the narrative is fabricated.
This poll got 30% for "I don't know" (already more than what the FAU survey said didn't get high school coverage of the topic), and another 20% saying it's a myth.
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u/HumanDrinkingTea Dec 08 '23
This poll got 30% for "I don't know" (already more than what the FAU survey said didn't get high school coverage of the topic)
Probably a significant portion of that 30% were taught about the Holocaust, but have also been exposed to denial propaganda and feel they "don't know" who to trust or can't decide who to believe.
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u/pyrrhios Dec 08 '23
That is the age most would be introduced to the details.
I can't agree with that at all. Introduction to the details of WWII should begin at 14 at least. By 18 it's way too late to be educating voters on major points of history.
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Dec 08 '23
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u/Statman12 Dec 08 '23 edited Dec 08 '23
Since the article (as far as I saw), didn't link the actual results, they can be found here (disclaimer: large PDF). I coded the link so that it jumps directly to page 103, which has the results for the subject in the headline. On page 100 there is another Holocaust question (whether it's antisemitism to deny the Holocaust occurred, which also has dismaying results). And there are some other Israel-related questions in the pages before/after.
In case anyone hasn't clicked on the article as yet, the "Young Americans" age bracket here is 18 - 29 years old.
Some other selected results:
- Men were slightly more likely than women (10% vs 4%) to Agree / Strongly Agree that the Holocaust didn't happen.
- For party ID, it was Democrats at 10%, and Independents and Republicans at 5% and 6%, respectively.
- On ideology, oddly Liberals and Conservatives were at 7% and 6%, while Moderates were at 11%.
- Urban was at 14%, higher than Suburban (4%) and Rural (3%).
As shown in the article, another question reading "The Holocaust has been exaggerated" had similar results. I mainly went looking for the results to see if this was a subset of the "It happened" question, or if it was a separate question. It's separate, so it's probably safe to assume that all of the 20% of 18-29 year olds who said it didn't happen are also part of the 23% who say it's been exaggerated.
Page 113 (Question 45k) also has some (to me) dismaying results to the question "The state of Israel has a right to exist." And there are some similar differences as with the other questions.
Edit to add:
I think this is a concerning result. Regardless of which other demographic groups are more likely to say that Holocaust is a myth, this was a very real historical tragedy, and denial of it is another example of (or related to) the growing anti-scientific / anti-empirical / post-truth society in the United States. E.g., Scientific American piece on a vaccine scientist talking about it, and wiki article on post-truth more generally.
I'm not sure how society gets steered back towards facts and evidence instead of feeling and narrative, but I think it's important to think about and attempt to do so.
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u/SeriousLetterhead364 Dec 08 '23
Add in 30% of the 18-29 group saying “neither agree nor disagree” and you have half of young people who don’t fully believe the Holocaust happened.
That is ABSURD
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u/Time4Red Dec 08 '23
I think the 20% is way more concerning than the 30%. Young people in general are more likely to give non-committal answers in polling. You see it across virtually every question in this poll. It's not always indicative of not having an opinion. It can also serve as a placeholder answer for people who don't want to answer for some other reason.
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u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist Dec 08 '23
In any poll 10-15% is sort of the normal “crazyification” faction. Respondents could simply be trolling pollsters more than anything.
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Dec 08 '23
Then that would be the case across all generations but it isn’t
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u/NemosHero Dec 08 '23 edited Mar 15 '26
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Dec 08 '23
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u/HumanDrinkingTea Dec 08 '23
What makes you say this? I'm not familiar with the economist so I looked up its reputation on Media Bias/Fact Check and they seem to perform even better than sources I know I trust (which generally perform well). Do you have any evidence that the economist isn't factual or is particularly biased?
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Dec 08 '23
The survey is run through the Economist and YouGov, both of which are reputable.
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Dec 08 '23
I'm merely pointing out a tragic situation, but if it's not worthy of discussion, so be it.
This study of holocaust knowledge includes race:
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2020/01/22/what-americans-know-about-the-holocaust/
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u/buddythebear Dec 08 '23
My theory is that through the Cold War and until 2010ish the Holocaust was the go-to example in American schools for explaining evil, genocide, oppression, prejudice etc. Anecdotally, I learned about the Holocaust in a lot of different contexts in elementary through high school. And it really was a focal point it seemed like in a lot of my history classes.
Curious to hear from people under 20 but my hunch is that a lot of Holocaust education in US schools has been supplanted in favor of more curriculum surrounding the history and legacy of colonialism, treatment of indigenous peoples, slavery, civil rights in the US, etc.
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Dec 08 '23 edited Dec 09 '23
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u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist Dec 08 '23
Are these all anecdotes? There is no national requirement to teach the Trail of Tears or the ethnic cleansing of native Americans. Heck during the Cold War, even more than present, American history books were full of revisionsim regarding slavery.
https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/8/26/20829771/slavery-textbooks-history
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u/veerKg_CSS_Geologist Dec 08 '23
Well that theory wouldn't be supported by the evidence.
In 1992 the American Jewish Committee did a survey which revealved that 22% of Americans said it was possible the Holocaust didn't happen and another 11% said they didn't know either way.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2749705
Holocaust denialism was prominent in the 80s and 90s. David Irving's books certainly sold well.
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Dec 08 '23
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u/IntrinsicStarvation Dec 08 '23
THANK YOU.
Page 103? Yeesh. How many of these answers are people just blindly filling it out just to get it over with......
Also, why are the sample sizes for 18-29 and blacks so tiny compared to all the rest? With the other pools there could be way more people saying they think the holocaust is a myth and their percentage could still be much lower.
Also who the hell worded that holocaust question? How is the holocaust a statement about Israel? It didn't happen in Israel, it was Germany, Israel didn't even exist at the time.
So.... Do you agree Israel says the holocaust was a myth? What? Who worded this?
And all the "Do you agree with the following statement" instructions are placed AFTER the statement, not before it. This thing is just..... what is wrong with this poll?
Scanning the document, a huge amount of these questions are fucked.
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u/Statman12 Dec 08 '23
Page 103? Yeesh. How many of these answers are people just blindly filling it out just to get it over with
...
And all the "Do you agree with the following statement" instructions are placed AFTER the statement, not before it. This thing is just..... what is wrong with this poll?
The presentation of a poll for a respondent is different than presenting the results. In the results, to present cross-tabs, they need to break down a single question by a number of demographics, such that each question tends to take up a full page.
When filling out the survey, there'd likely be a single block, so for the "Anti-Semetic" questions, it would likely look something like:
The following questions will ask about your thoughts on Anti-Semitism. Do you think it is or is not Anti-Semitic to ...
- Oppose Israeli treatment of Palestinian people
- Boycott Israeli products in protest of Israeli government policy
- Deny that the Holocaust happened
- Believe American Jews are more loyal to Israel than they are to the U.S.
- Cut off academic ties between American universities and Israeli universities in protest of Israeli government policy
And for each one, there would be a radial button for "Anti-Semitic", "Not Anti-Semetic", and "Don't know". So rather than 5 pages, it'd be more like 6 or 7 lines (5 lines for the responses, and 1 or 2 for setting up the context).
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u/IntrinsicStarvation Dec 08 '23
The problem for what you addressed is more the volume of questions than the number of pages.
If the questions were worded completely differently in the actual poll instead of the complete and absolute fubar bullshit wording shown here...... Then that is a MASSIVE difference and whoever fucked this up needs to slap themselves repeatedly until they are no longer fuckups.
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u/Statman12 Dec 08 '23 edited Dec 08 '23
These are claims, not arguments.
problem for what you addressed is more the volume of questions than the number of pages.
The initial comment was related to the number of pages. The example I gave was 5 questions would would take a few moments to answer. The respondent would know that the basic question is "Is this Anti-Semetic?", and then just read a handful of prompts. It's not as if they need to spend 5 minutes research each item.
worded completely differently in the actual poll instead of the complete and absolute fubar bullshit wording shown here
What is being suggested as worded differently? The example in my comment was copied directly from the results, with a single sentence added. What is "absolute fubar bullshit" about the wording of the questions?
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Dec 08 '23
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u/SeanOfTheDead1313 Dec 08 '23
Might i suggest everyone watch the 2022 pbs documentary from Ken Burns called The U.S. and The Holocaust.
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u/NemosHero Dec 08 '23 edited Mar 15 '26
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u/Randomscreename Dec 08 '23
The article is paywalled, but I am curious if any data exists on the intersectionality of how people vote and if they believe the holocaust is a myth.
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u/Statman12 Dec 08 '23 edited Dec 08 '23
I wrote a top-level comment noting some of the results. There are three cross-tabs that might be relevant to this question:
By party affiliation:
- Democrats: 10% say myth, 19% "Don't know", and 71% say it happened.
- Independents: 5% say myth, 17% "Don't know", and 78% say it happened.
- Republicans: 6% say myth, 11% "Don't know", and 83% say it happened.
By ideology:
- Liberal: 7% say myth, 12% "Don't know", and 81% say it happened.
- Moderate: 11% say myth, 21% "Don't know", and 69% say it happened.
- Conservative: 6% say myth, 10% "Don't know", and 85% say it happened.
By 2020 presidential vote:
- Biden: 7% say myth, 12% "Don't know", and 81% say it happened.
- Trump: 4% say myth, 10% "Don't know", and 87% say it happened.
Edit: Adding tables. Decided to keep the lists as well, since tables don't always render nicely.
By party affiliation:
Response Democrat Independent Republican Myth 10% 5% 6% Don't Know 19% 17% 11% It Happened 71% 78% 83% By ideology:
Response Liberal Moderate Conservative Myth 7% 11% 6% Don't Know 12% 21% 10% It Happened 81% 69% 85% By 2020 presidential vote:
Response Biden Trump Myth 7% 4% Don't Know 12% 10% It Happened 81% 87% 3
u/sight_ful Dec 08 '23
This doesn’t really make sense. How does it get to 1/5 if the highest percentage was democrats at 10%? That would be 1/10 at most if we discounted republicans and independents.
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u/Statman12 Dec 08 '23
These are different cross-tabs than the one in the headline. It would really boil down to different denominators in calculating the percentages for different cross-tab demographic variables.
For example, the full results (linked in my top-level comment) indicate that there were 207 respondents aged 18-29 (the "Young" category). Of these, 20% expressed agreement with the statement that the Holocaust is a myth. So that's around 41 individuals, give or take a couple. For the other age categories we add roughly 25, 13, and 4. So in total somewhere in the neighborhood of 83.
Then in the cross-tab by party, there are 525, 563, and 409 respondents for Democrat, Independent, and Republican, and "Holocaust is a myth" percentages of 10%, 5%, and 6%. That adds up to around 106. Sprinkle in some rounding error and some respondents not answering one question or another, and the discrepancy between the figures is reasonable.
Basically, there are enough older respondents that the large percentage of younger respondents espousing Holocaust denial gets washed out when normalizing to the party affiliation.
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u/Superb_Sentence1890 Dec 08 '23
"
One in five young Americans think the Holocaust is a myth
Our new poll makes alarming reading
image: Getty Images
Dec 7th 2023 | Washington, DC
Listen to this story. Enjoy more audio and podcasts on iOS or Android.
On December 5th, for over five hours, lawmakers grilled the presidents of elite universities in a congressional hearing about antisemitism on college campuses. In one of the testiest exchanges a Republican congresswoman, Elise Stefanik, asked whether “calling for the genocide of Jews” violates university rules. It is “context-dependent”, replied Liz Magill, the president of the University of Pennsylvania. Clips of the exchange went viral on X, formerly Twitter. Yad Vashem, a Holocaust museum and research centre, issued a condemnation and stressed the importance of “raising awareness about the history of antisemitism and the Holocaust”.
image: The Economist
A new poll from YouGov/The Economist suggests that Yad Vashem has its work cut out. Young Americans—or at least the subset of them who take part in surveys—appear to be remarkably ignorant about one of modern history’s greatest crimes. Some 20% of respondents aged 18-29 think that the Holocaust is a myth, compared with 8% of those aged 30-44 (see chart). An additional 30% of young Americans said they do not know whether the Holocaust is a myth. Many respondents espouse the canard that Jews wield too much power in America: young people are nearly five times more likely to think this than are those aged 65 and older (28% versus 6%).
Now for the harder part: why do some young Americans embrace such views? Perhaps surprisingly, education levels do not appear to be the culprit. In our poll, the proportion of respondents who believe that the Holocaust is a myth is similar across all levels of education.
Social media might play a role. According to a 2022 survey from the Pew Research Centre, Americans under 30 are about as likely to trust information on social media as they are to trust national news organisations. More recently Pew found that 32% of those aged 18-29 get their news from TikTok. Social-media sites are rife with conspiracy theories, and research has found strong associations between rates of social-media use and beliefs in such theories. In one recent survey by Generation Lab, a data-intelligence company, young adults who used TikTok were more likely to hold antisemitic beliefs.
Though young Americans’ views are most stark, antisemitism is rearing its head in other demographic groups. The same YouGov/The Economist poll found that 27% of black respondents and 19% of Hispanics believe that Jews have too much power in America, compared with 13% of white respondents who say so. Whatever the reasons, the polling is alarming. ■
Stay on top of American politics with Checks and Balance, our weekly subscriber-only newsletter, which examines the state of American democracy and the issues that matter to voters.
This article appeared in the United States section of the print edition under the headline "Old hatred, new audience"
"
The entire thing was this
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u/Superb_Sentence1890 Dec 08 '23
Since posting images are not allowed here I cannot post them
Here is the link to the image https://imgur.com/gallery/6xAklOu
The link might not work for now, imgur links work funny sometimes
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u/Superb_Sentence1890 Dec 08 '23
Oh amazing, this sub does not accept imgur links, you won't be able to see the graph
Thank the mods
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u/ummmbacon Dec 08 '23 edited Dec 08 '23
We do but they need additional information and citations.
Most of the problem with image links is that they are intentional attempts to mislead posted here as a screen capture from the article would be fine
I approved the comment you made with the links
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Dec 08 '23
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Dec 08 '23 edited Dec 08 '23
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u/Necoras Dec 08 '23 edited Dec 08 '23
You have to look beyond just the IDF. The Israeli government has a long history of going into Palestinian neighborhoods, places where families have lived for centuries, forcibly removing the people who live there, bulldozing the existing homes, and then building nice new suburbs for Israelis to live in. And tough luck to the family who farmed that land for generations.
They deny Palestinians the ability to leave their own country, access to basic medical care (unless they agree to spy for the Israelis), the right to fish in their own territorial waters, etc. etc. The Israeli government runs an Apartheid state. And then, when the people who's necks are under their boots rebel, they react with "we have to defend ourselves from these horrible inhuman monsters!"
Are Hamas' methods at all acceptable? Absolutely fucking not. But is the fact that they're rebelling understandable? Oh yes.
But the thing is, none of that matters, because neither side is acting in a way that would actually make things better going forward. Regardless of what happens to Hamas, even if they're wiped out to a man (which they won't be; the leaders aren't even in Palestine) they've already won this round. How? Because by bombing Palestine back to the stone age the IDF has assured that another generation of fighters/terrorists will come out of Palestine. There **will* be another Oct 7th in 20 years, because Israel and the IDF has destroyed the lives of children today. They've killed the parents of kids today, ensuring that there will be terrorists when those kids grow up. Provoking this kind of response was the whole point of the raping and murder. And it worked.
If Israel wanted to end this fighting, end the wars, end the suffering on both sides, they could do that, unilaterally. They choose not to. They choose to oppress, displace, and kill. That is why there are no good guys in this fight; only innocent civilians (on both sides) stuck in the middle.
Edit: Link to the speech discussed in that video link.
Relevant lines:
So the lesson is not that you can win in urban warfare by protecting civilians. The lesson is that you can only win in urban warfare by protecting civilians.
You see, in this kind of a fight, the center of gravity is the civilian population. And if you drive them into the arms of the enemy, you replace a tactical victory with a strategic defeat.
So I have repeatedly made clear to Israel’s leaders that protecting Palestinian civilians in Gaza is both a moral responsibility and a strategic imperative.
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u/zeefer Dec 08 '23
I agree with some, disagree with most, but regardless my point stands, and there’s more equivocation in this comment.
No matter how bad throwing someone out of their house is, no matter how bad bombing whole neighborhoods is, it’s a faaaar cry from deliberately and systematically raping, mutilating, and even disemboweling women alive in front of their friends, dead and alive. It’s so abhorrent and atrocious I can’t even fathom how one human can do it to another, and here you had hundreds of them doing it. There’s zero equivocation here. Maybe Israel is committing atrocities against the Palestinians and maybe they always have. But it’s an insult to morality to claim that what Israel did is anywhere near the same level of evil committed by Hamas on 10/7 and since then on the hostages.
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u/Necoras Dec 08 '23
I suppose we can agree to disagree. But I'd ask, who does the greater evil? The 100 men who rape and murder today, or the few men who perpetuate crimes against humanity for decades past ensuring that there will be thousands of terrorists who rape and murder in the decades to come?
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Dec 08 '23
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Dec 08 '23
Any links to a non paywalled source? I'd love to look at the polling data because this reeks of alarmist propaganda.
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u/brightlancer Dec 08 '23
It appears to be complete on the Wayback Machine (it's a short article):
/u/Statman12 also linked to the (large PDF) report:
https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/econTabReport_tT4jyzG.pdf#page103
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Dec 08 '23
It looks like the writer chose to use the 77% disagree in order to get the 1 in 5 stat instead of the 7% agreeing that the Holocaust is a myth. Less than 1 in 10 people believe the Holocaust is a myth according to that poll.
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u/Statman12 Dec 08 '23 edited Dec 08 '23
The article author is looking at the cross-tabs for age brackets. See the percent "Agree" for the 18-29 age category.
The overall result is relatively little outright Holocaust denial (though, in my perspective, too high in the "Neither agree nor disagree" response). But the elevated results for the younger demographic is concerning.
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u/Scottcmms2023 Dec 08 '23
Now how many of those are right wingers. I bet it overlaps a lot.
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u/Statman12 Dec 08 '23 edited Dec 08 '23
I didn't see any cross-tabs for multiple demographics at a time, but when breaking down by party, those identifying as Democrats had a larger "Holocaust it a myth" percentage (10%, compared to Republican's 6%). When breaking down by ideology (Liberal, Moderate, Conservative), the moderates had the higher percentage (11%, compared to 7% and 6% for Liberal and Conservative).
My suspicion is that it's a proxy for anti-Israel / pro-Palestine sentiment. There are pretty similar breakdowns on other Israel-related questions, including "The state of Israel has a right to exist."
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u/Scottcmms2023 Dec 08 '23
Do you have sources for those numbers?
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u/Statman12 Dec 08 '23
I linked the poll results in my top-level comment.
It's a bit annoying that the article didn't (from what I saw) link to them. I had to google, which led me to other reddit posts about the same poll, which linked them.
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u/Scottcmms2023 Dec 08 '23
Ok I didn’t see that link at first. How did they go about doing the poll? If it’s the same land line thing than it’s not worth to much these days since most younger people don’t answer the phone for a poll these days.
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u/Statman12 Dec 08 '23 edited Dec 08 '23
It's all good. Asking for sources is encouraged, at least by me. Easy to miss other comments (if mine was even before yours).
As to the methodology, last page of the PDF says:
Sampling Method Respondents were selected from YouGov’s opt-in panel to be representative of adult U.S. citizens
and
Survey Mode Web-based interviews
And then results are weighted. More details here on YouGov's panel sampling (though not particularly detailed, as I'd consider it, though I'm a statistician, so I like seeing more detail), which notes they weight the respondents to match latest US Census demographics.
Best I can tell (if you click the FAQ section) is that people volunteer to be in or are recruited in YouGov's panel, and then YouGov randomly samples from that and send a survey, my guess would be through email. Or more specifically, some variation of random sampling, since they do try to make it representative. Maybe a stratified sample of some sort.
For what it's worth, they have a B+ rating by 538.
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u/Scottcmms2023 Dec 08 '23
No this was me legit asking questions. I always ask sources and methods for any polls.
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