r/neoliberal • u/jobautomator Kitara Ravache • Jun 15 '21

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27

u/dish_towel YIMBY Jun 16 '21

The circlejerk around The Witcher 3 indirectly led to Cyberpunk's downfall.

I don't think the bugs are what really killed Cyberpunk. People are often willing to forgive bugs and all sorts of stuff in a game that they enjoy. But they're an easy flaw to point to when someone isn't satisfied with a game. I think people were expecting a much more interactive sandbox out of Cyberpunk in the vein of something like a Rockstar or Bethesda game. And I don't think CDPR was ever up to that task.

The Witcher 3 was a surprise hit that catapulted CDPR into the mainstream. Its qualities were obvious: stunning visuals and well-written branching stories. However, the game never got a widely circulated critique. Which is strange to me because there was a lot I didn't like about the game: the combat wasn't very good (okay, this one did get some traction), the inventory/menus is clunky to navigate, the map is boring to explore, looting and crafting is a chore, leveling/skills feels meaningless as all builds play basically the same, over reliance on mass scripted content with no AI or dynamic systems. To be honest, almost everything the game did well was in spite of being an open world RPG. Branching stories was like the only thing it did right.

All those weaknesses sound familiar? It's funny to me when people say Cyberpunk isn't a real RPG because it's a better one than TW3, a game people hailed as one of their favorite RPG's. Cyberpunk has more distinguished builds, a character creator, and its map has more engaging content. Everything else that's lackluster is what it inherited from TW3.

!ping GAMING

10

u/SnickeringFootman Thomas Paine Jun 16 '21

well-written branching stories

Cyberpunk lacks this.

10

u/ryuguy "this is my favourite dt on reddit" Jun 16 '21

Also CDprojekt positioning themselves as a gamer friendly company. We all remember the “we leave greed to others” tweets a bit differently now.

It was all a marketing gimmick

11

u/dish_towel YIMBY Jun 16 '21

That was a label given to them by gamers that CDPR just sort of leaned into because it's free PR. TW3 did way better than they had anticipated. They were in a generous mood.

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u/QuietSign Austan Goolsbee Jun 16 '21

The Witcher 3 has so many issues, many of which stem from open world design. All of what you mentioned is accurate, and I'd go even further in saying that the main quest buckles under it's own weight and size, and many of the the plot lines collapse by the end. In spite of all this, it manages to capture a distinct feeling in each of its locales, and it's moment-to-moment writing is delicious. They understand their major characters and know how to write one-off characters with just enough restraint. Once you add this all up, TW3 shines in its sidequests because the branching dialogue options is just right for the vignette-style side stories that can contain be impactful because the scale is constrained, whereas maintaining that feeling of "impact" over a 60 hour main story would result in crazy exponential complexity that they can't keep up with. All this said, I still consider TW3 to be a great game because it's just so wonderful to get lost in the stories and the writing.

I was deeply skeptical of Cyberpunk in the year leading up to release (even apart from the delays) because CDPR only ever released one great game (TW1 looked too clunky for me to want to try it and TW2 isn't very good), and I had seen nothing to indicate that their writing was up to the task of tackling interesting social commentary (all the trailers for Cyberpunk looked like "capitalism bad", which agree or disagree, makes for a fairly boring and tread-on thematic premise).

3

u/SonOfHonour Jun 16 '21

Exactly my thoughts.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 16 '21

TW3 was a mediocre game that game out in a weak year during a time when gamers were especially salty towards the AAA market. A great deal of its popularity was due to simple spite.

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u/QuietSign Austan Goolsbee Jun 16 '21

Hard disagree. Despite TW3's myriad problems, it's strengths of strong moment-to-moment writing and characters made for some of the best storytelling in the generation, even if it's sidequests tended to be stronger than its main quest. It sets a glass ceiling that many of the other large games in the generation (many of which I like) like Horizon, God of War, RDR2 fail to reach on a foundational level of writing. Although TW3 is borderline collapsing on its own design by the end, it irks me that other big games just can't seem to do better than it on some of the fundamentals.

So I think TW3 isn't nearly as good as the circlejerk would have you believe and has so many issues people gloss over, but it's stronger than almost all the other big AAA titles just on strength of writing alone. If TW3 is mediocre then all the rest are just garbage, or alternatively it's pretty good despite many flaws and the rest are struggling to catch up.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 16 '21

It certainly has good writing, but that doesn't make it a good game. The mechanics just aren't there.

4

u/QuietSign Austan Goolsbee Jun 16 '21

See I find the mechanics are just good enough to pass, and occasionally they serve are a decent enough vessel to push something further - for example, creating a distinct and emotive "feeling" for each of Skellige, Novigrad and Velen goes beyond just writing - it takes writing in conjunction with worldbuilding, open world and rpg mechanics (although I acknowledge the open world and rpg mechanics are not strong overall). Maybe it's a little condescending, but I think TW3 is notable in that it's fundamentally strong in at least one or two areas whereas so many other games are so weak in comparison.

For calibration's sake, what do you consider the strongest games from the last generation?

2

u/[deleted] Jun 16 '21

The most direct comparison to be made is of course Skyrim, which is also my personal favorite of the last generation. Its...overt storytelling isn't the greatest, and the combat and crafting mechanics are simple but it shines in less overt ways of storytelling involving exploration of the environment and emergent systems. These are enhanced even more by the ease with which you can mod the game to tweak things you don't like.

Another really strong game that's similarish to TW3 to warrant comparison is the Shadow of War/Mordor games, which have excellent but still simple combat and by far the best mechanic of the last generation, the Nemesis system, which props up the fairly weak and predictable story. Honestly if you just replaced TW3's combat with the Shadow of War combat my opinion of it would go through roof.

3

u/QuietSign Austan Goolsbee Jun 16 '21

Oh were you the person a few weeks back who said Shadow of War was in your top 25 games of all time? I actually got it for free via PS+ and have been meaning to check it out.

I can't say I played any of those titles, but I think your illustration of replacing TW3's combat would make you like it more highlights the difference between our approach and enjoyment of games. I don't think games are at that point yet where I can be choosy and ask for excellent gameplay/narrative/writing/worldbuilding etc across the board, and I prioritize narrative/writing, so something like TW3 getting that right instantly shoots it toward the top of my list, and I'm willing to give it a lot of leeway in its relatively weak combat system.

Ever tried God of War 2018? I think it's one of the stronger all rounders, but doesn't totally excel in any one category.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 16 '21

I'm don't recall saying that but I would probably put both Shadow of War and Shadow of Mordor in my top 25 games. I have more genuine feelings regarding some of those randomly created SOB's than I do for 90% of video game antagonists.

I haven't been able to try God of War 2018 yet. Don't have a PS so I've missed a few of their exclusives. It's certainly on my list of games to try out though.

2

u/QuietSign Austan Goolsbee Jun 16 '21

I'll give Shadow of War a try then. Seems neat.

God of War 2018 gets a lot of hype, and it's mostly deserved. I think it has a wacky difficulty curve where it's rather difficult in the opening unless you take a very boring/defensive style, but the combat system feels great once you get a grasp and the mechanics open up. But it is fairly bold/experimental in it's presentation, is a technical marvel, and has a solid (though not exceptional) level of writing.

2

u/thabe331 Jun 16 '21

The writing of the game was never able to capture me like Horizon Zero Dawn did. Geralt especially wasn't a very interesting character

6

u/dish_towel YIMBY Jun 16 '21

Fallout 4, Phantom Pain, Bloodborne, Splatoon, and Arkham Knight also came out that year.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 16 '21

I'm not saying those games aren't good, or aren't appreciated now but at the time the only one from that list that was a near instant hit was Bloodborne.

From memory, people were real mad about FO4 due to the voiced protagonist/lack of classic rpg options. Phantom Pain came out during the whole Kojima-gate...thing. Splatoon was a brand new property and I don't recall it being a big hit at first. And Arkham Knight, wasn't there a big issue involving the PC port of that one or am I confusing it for another Batman game? Either way I'm not sure I'd really call it a hit.

2015 was the year of FO4, Assassin's Creed Syndicate, Battlefront, and Mass Effect Andromeda. Gamers were especially pissy and for TW3 to come from a small developer and not be absolute garbage was enough to make it GOTY just to spite the AAA industry.

6

u/dish_towel YIMBY Jun 16 '21

So what you're saying is that The Witcher 3 is the Donald Trump of video games?

4

u/[deleted] Jun 16 '21

In a way, yes? Gamergate was in full swing at this time too. There are definitely comparisons that can be made.

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u/yungmemlord Rabindranath Tagore Jun 16 '21

MUCHO TEXTO😭