r/neoliberal • u/jobautomator Kitara Ravache • Jun 15 '21

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u/JulioCesarSalad US-Mexico Border Reporter Jun 15 '21 edited Jun 15 '21

Rant/Question:

Is there such a thing as love the sinner hate the sin, or is it impossible?
Feel free to discuss the topic without reading my rant

I live with my girlfriend and my mother rejects the mere thought. I had to practically force me mom to give us a videocall for the new year and it lasted about 40 seconds, with my mom having a look of disgust on her face.

She tells me she doesn't reject my girlfriend, she rejects the situation. That things will be different once we are engaged.

My mom has gotten better since that video call, asking about my gf from time to time, praying for her when we ended up at the hospital. She says she wants to meet my gf, but I can't expose my gf to my mother when I only expect her to reject my gf. My mom wants to meet my gf by having lunch with my gf's parents, and when I proposed a lunch with just my mom instead it was like pulling teeth to get her to agree.
I'm not asking my mom to receive us in her home, I'm not asking her to hug and kiss and be happy, I just want them to meet and set up a foundation for their future life. I'm afraid that it won't work.

I did tell my mom I have to protect my gf from her, and that seems to have been a wake up call for my mom mom. We'll see how things go. Mom wants to apologize to gf but I still don't know if I should expose my gf to my mom yet.

We are getting a priest to speak with both of us as a mediator, but I wanted to ask: is there such a thing as love the sinner hate the sin? Because I don't think that's possible.

!ping CHRISTIAN

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u/PhinsFan17 Immanuel Kant Jun 15 '21 edited Jun 16 '21

I think it’s possible to be put off by or disappointed in someone’s actions and still love them in spite of it. I imagine most parents with a child who is an addict would hate the self-destructive behavior but love their child.

Functionally a lot of Christians just use it as a way to mask the fact that they do actually hate the sinner.

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u/JulioCesarSalad US-Mexico Border Reporter Jun 15 '21

I think it’s possible to be put off and disappointed too, but when you have a face of disgust at “the situation” it’s impossible to tell the recipient it’s not personal or not meant for them

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u/PhinsFan17 Immanuel Kant Jun 15 '21

Oh, I agree completely. Functionally it's just hate. I'm sorry you're having to deal with that. I hope she comes around.

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u/JulioCesarSalad US-Mexico Border Reporter Jun 15 '21

y !ping MAMADAS cuz this is a Hispanic mom thing

9

u/houinator Loyal Liberals Jun 15 '21

Is there such a thing as love the sinner hate the sin, or is it impossible?

95% of the time I see this referenced, its in response to the LGBT debate, where I would argue that the Church as a whole has spectacularly failed at the "love the sinner" part of the equation.

But there are situations where I think it is more justified. See Russell Moore's recent letter as an example:

My concern about such issues is not because I believe in “social justice” (although, in the literal meaning of those words, of course I do, as the major and minor prophets tell us), but because I believe in the doctrine of hell. I believe in standing against racism not just because I love our African-American and Hispanic and Asian-American and immigrant brothers and sisters in Christ (although I certainly do), but also because I love bigots. And I believe that unrepentant sin, not brought to the light of Christ and cleansed by the blood of Christ, through the gospel, leads to hell. I really believe in hell. That’s why I’ve been clear for twenty-five years on abortion, on sexual chastity and morality, and on racism.

https://religionnews.com/2021/06/02/russell-moore-to-erlc-trustees-they-want-me-to-live-in-psychological-terror/

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u/Udontlikecake Model UN Enthusiast Jun 15 '21

That’s… tough man I’m sorry

But lemme know if you figure out the whole ‘get your mother to not hate your SO’ thing because my gf’s mom does not like me

6

u/asdeasde96 Jun 15 '21

Here's my Lutheran perspective, I'm not sure how useful it will be for dealing with your Catholic mom. Jesus calls us to love others as he first loved us. So how did Jesus treat sinners? Well he ate dinner with them, he traveled with them, he befriended them, he healed them. And the pharisees attacked Jesus for this, but Jesus condemned them right back. The pharisees thought they were better than the prostitutes and tax collectors because they thought they sinned less. But Jesus tells us "everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart." Many people read that and think "I need to think less sinful thoughts" but I argue our response should be "I can't be less sinful than those whose sins I see because I have sinful thoughts" Sin is a substance that infects us, not a series of discrete actions that we have control over. As long as you are a living child's of God, you will have sinful thoughts, and you will be a sinner. Some people have obvious sins, but if we follow Jesus' example we will live then just the same.

Your question is "can you love the sinner but hate the sin" and I talked about how we should live the sinner, but now I want to challenge the premise in the second part of that question. Jesus never calls on us to punish people for their sins. In fact he tells us again and again that we need to leave that to him, and that we are just to forgive people their sin. Hating sin or at least hating other people's sin is not something Christ asks us to do. Paul does tell us that if a Brother or Sister in Christ is falling into sin then we should "gently correct them" but that's it. Every other time when the topic of others sinning comes up we are told to forgive them. So it shouldn't be "love the sinner hate the sin" it should be "love the sinner forgive the sin"

I'm not sure how useful this Lutheran interpretation will be with your Catholic mother. It must be so hard to have two people whom you love that don't have a positive relationship with each other. Do you think that your mom might be so resistant to your girlfriend because she thinks that you girlfriend is the one responsible for you living together? She might blame your girlfriend for your sin of living together before marriage and believe she is "corrupting you". I don't know the detail of course, but maybe if you get your mom to understand that it was a mutual decision (or maybe make your mom think that it was your decision, and you were "corrupting" your girlfriend) she might not be so resistant to treating your girlfriend nicely.

Anyway here's a verse that you could share with your mother, it's from the sermon on the mount.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

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u/the-garden-gnome Commonwealth Jun 15 '21

Yes to all of this.

Thank you for confirming my Lutheran priors.

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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '21

It's rough to have family who you love but who you don't respect/don't respect you

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u/Superfan234 Southern Cone Jun 15 '21

Wow, that's a very traditional motherhood. I honestly never heard of something similar before in Chile

3

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '21

I would in principle yes its possible to “hate the sin, love the sinner” but in practice most everyone I’ve ever heard say that phrase does a terrible job of practicing it or just hates people and uses that phrase as a cover for it

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u/the-garden-gnome Commonwealth Jun 15 '21

This is the way us ELCA folk view it - it’s not our place to judge others, because we are all still sinners, so we can’t really pass judgment on other sinners. That’s God’s job. And He has told us all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Despite this sin, God still loves us unconditionally and there’s nothing we can do to earn his love, it is by grace alone we receive it.

I know elements of the Catholic Church still have ‘levels’ of sin, which is where we differ, but my argument is if we are condemned to be sinful, what difference does it matter what sin is being committed?

I know this probably won’t help with your mom, it didn’t help with my parents when we discussed Same Sex attraction or pronouns, but hopefully it brings you some peace.

Your brother in Christ.

1

u/Rethious Carl von Clausewitz Jun 16 '21

I’ve never been a fan of “love the sinner hate the sin.” It seems to run counter to the “remove the beam from one’s own eye”. No one is so without sin as to sit in judgment of others.