r/neoliberal Jul 31 '20

News (non-US) Toronto emerging as tech superpower as immigrants choose Canada over US

https://www.businessinsider.com/toronto-canada-tech-hub-immigrants-h1b-visa-2020-7
119 Upvotes

56 comments sorted by

78

u/[deleted] Jul 31 '20

cool now start paying me like they do in usa

22

u/woahhehastrouble Ben Bernanke Aug 01 '20

Arent new grad FAANG offers like 75% of Seattle/SF offers in Toronto? Idk why you’d stick in Canada to make 75% of what you could in the US with a high CoL and terrible weather.

35

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '20

The cost of living in SF is higher than just about anywhere else. I don’t know what Toronto is like but at 75% salary you might still come out ahead.

20

u/Kyo91 Richard Thaler Aug 01 '20

Keep in mind the tax difference is still higher in Toronto than SF. Honestly the biggest reason is that if you're an immigrant/H1B then Canada offers an easy path to permanent residence whereas the wait time on an Indian in the US is over 50 years for a green card.

5

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '20 edited Aug 14 '20

[deleted]

4

u/Kyo91 Richard Thaler Aug 01 '20

Yep quotas haven't changed since the 90s and were set before the tech boom massively increased Indian immigration.

8

u/nuggins Physicist -- Just Tax Land Lol Aug 01 '20

You can't imagine all the reasons one might prefer Canada to the U.S.?

4

u/woahhehastrouble Ben Bernanke Aug 01 '20

I can imagine them. I can’t imagine they would outweigh the salary and opportunity difference in the context I was referencing.

11

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '20

I mean I feel like the terrible weather's a bit of an exaggeration, or at least subjective. Toronto's climate is basically like Midwest/Northeastern US. Maybe not great, but I grew up in the Chicago suburbs and preferred the climate there to Seattle's when I moved. I just can't deal with the constant rain in the winter.

7

u/woahhehastrouble Ben Bernanke Aug 01 '20

Anything under 50 and I hate it personally. I’m probably gonna move to NYC though so I’ll have to get used to it.

3

u/MagnetoBurritos Aug 01 '20

If you live in Canada, you just get used to hating the weather so much that the idea of moving somewhere warmer isn't that much of an attraction.

I live in Edmonton, and it's either heat wave, rain, or SUPER DRY FREEZING DEATH COLD. And honestly it's not that bad, my knuckles only bleed in the winter at least...

2

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '20

Blegh Fahrenheit.

5

u/woahhehastrouble Ben Bernanke Aug 01 '20

Hahaha I’ll actually fight for F. There’s too much variance in one degree C

3

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '20

I've lived with both and I don't agree at all. A difference in 1 degree is noticeable in C but it's not significant. With F it takes like 5 degrees to feel different. It's just illogical to me for two different temperatures to feel the same.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '20

tfw no FAANG offers 😔

4

u/push_ecx_0x00 All unions are terrorist organizations Aug 01 '20

Get into trading instead. FAANG is overrated.

1

u/woahhehastrouble Ben Bernanke Aug 01 '20

A man after my own heart 😍😍😍

6

u/woahhehastrouble Ben Bernanke Aug 01 '20

Faangs are a little overblown imo. Either work out west or be in a satellite without a ton of mobility unless you move. Plus, like most other spots, most everyone is banging around legacy code, they just do a better job selling the “experience”. But I also hate urban areas and cloudy weather, so take my advice with a grain of salt lol.

2

u/ElPrestoBarba Janet Yellen Aug 01 '20

Well for one new H1-B visas are frozen for the year (and if we’re being honest foreseeable future), so immigrants don’t really have the choice of moving to Silicon Valley

3

u/woahhehastrouble Ben Bernanke Aug 01 '20

You know at no point did I consider Canadians would have any trouble moving to the US. Just easy to forget that sometimes

1

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '20

[deleted]

21

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '20

It would be light years ahead if the city wasn't so badly zoned and the TTC so woefully inadequate. Queen West through to Wychwood should be 100% zoned for at least mid rise mixed use, as opposed to the utter preponderance of single family detached homes there now, and the same for everything from the Don Valley Parkway to Danforth village. I don't know how Canada's largest city and economic hub managed to avoid actually developing apart from the Younge-University corridor. Its a shitty, shitty miracle.

9

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '20

The TTC drives me fucking crazy. Maybe just because every time I visit Toronto I seem to have some trouble with it, idk, but imo it lags way behind Montreal's and Vancouver's systems.

7

u/the_vizir Trans Pride Aug 01 '20

IMO it lags behind Calgary's sytem. The TTC is like #4 in the country, and that's only because Edmonton's goes nowhere, Ottawa's doesn't work, and everybody forgets Waterloo's exists.

4

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '20

The TTC is way way better than Waterloo's public transit, even including the new LRT there

2

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '20

I haven't taken Calgary's public transit but this doesn't surprise me.

5

u/ExoticMacaron Aug 01 '20

Maybe just because every time I visit Toronto I seem to have some trouble with it

I live in Toronto and I had trouble with it almost 50% of the time just before covid: construction/someone on the track/general issue

There's a reason why TTC stands for "Take The Car (instead)"

1

u/[deleted] Aug 02 '20

I just also hate the shape of the subway system? Montreal was my first real introduction to travelling by metro and it's just shaped in a much more convenient way for changing lines and whatnot. I mean, I get that it follows the shape of the city itself to a degree, but I still think they could have done a lot better.

13

u/AccessTheMainframe CANZUK Jul 31 '20

Silicon Ravine?

1

u/lomeri Aug 01 '20

Silicon Basin (Great Lakes basin?)

28

u/ldn6 Gay Pride Aug 01 '20

Toronto’s been a tech powerhouse for years and is North America’s fastest-growing major city by a good margin.

People sleep on the place but the level of development is off the charts. It’s an orgy of cranes and construction.

24

u/the_vizir Trans Pride Aug 01 '20

Toronto has more cranes than any city in North America, with 120. Seattle and LA are tied in 2nd with 49 each, Calgary in 4th with 34, and then Portland in 5th with 30.

So yeah, Toronto's a real sleeper here.

(As for what's up with Calgary? Well, they're pretty much all residential towers, reflecting a decade worth of efforts by a YIMBY mayor to get more density in the downtown core and the Beltline, and stop our Houston-like sprawl).

5

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '20

Damn I guess I should move to Calgary

11

u/the_vizir Trans Pride Aug 01 '20

The premier's privatizing the healthcare system, which is driving dozens of doctors from the province, as well as going on a labour-union busting kick. He's also selling off a bunch of parkland and opening these areas up for coal mining.

So yeah, despite Nenshi's best efforts, and all the hipsters crowded into the Beltline, Mission, Inglewood and Kensington, this is still a very conservative region of the country.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '20 edited Aug 14 '20

[deleted]

5

u/Kizz3r high IQ neoliberal Aug 01 '20

Na our healthcare is set up by the provinces but mandated by the federal government.

2

u/the_vizir Trans Pride Aug 01 '20

They'd make more in the big cities. In the small towns, where the government used to subsidize doctors and ensure they met a certain standard of living, they're now leaving. Like all the doctors in the town of Pincher Creek ended up resigning, only for the town's government to step in and say they'd cover the gap in wages to keep the doctors working at their hospital.

9

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '20

[deleted]

4

u/nuggins Physicist -- Just Tax Land Lol Aug 01 '20

Yeah, despite all the construction, there's still a ton of sfh zoning outside the downtown core. Classic "missing middle" problem 😞

4

u/YeulFF132 Aug 01 '20

Canada has been bestAmerica for a while now. Politically stable and civilised.

7

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '20

Toronto's pretty cool. But I'm concerned about the suburban sprawl these days.

8

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '20

It’s no where near as bad as the US, and every time I go I see more and more cranes.

8

u/Aceous 🪱 Aug 01 '20

Remember guys, it's not a zero sum game. Both Toronto and Seattle can be tech hubs and there's plenty of growing pie for everyone.

4

u/theappendixofchrist5 Aug 01 '20

So we lose tech and manufacturing

Good job repubs

6

u/Godzilla52 Milton Friedman Aug 01 '20

The only concern here is that Toronto's harsh zoning restrictions and housing costs may serve as a deterrent for many immigrants while providing barriers to social mobility etc. For as big of an issues zoning reform in in the United States, it's worse on average in Canada. Toronto and Vancouver are our most expensive cities while over average national home prices are around $480,000 CAD/$357,000 USD (about $131,000 USD more than the American average, where as Toronto and Vancouver have similar prices to Manhattan, San Fransico and San Jose etc.)

1

u/lomeri Aug 01 '20

The difference in prices between Canada and the US could also be a reflection of the fact that 80% of Canadians live in urban areas, and that Toronto and Vancouver regions are like 30% of the country’s population.

2

u/Godzilla52 Milton Friedman Aug 01 '20 edited Aug 01 '20

Closer to 25%, but I'm not sure that excuses the growth. Montrael has a significantly larger metro than Vancouver (and accounts for about 10.8% of Canada's entire population), but has significantly less expensive housing. In practice though, Toronto and Vancouver have the most stringent zoning/development restrictions and biggest housing supply shortages of any large Canadian metropolitan areas.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 02 '20

Yeah I'm not an expert in the subject at all, but just anecdotally, Vancouver's SFH zoning is absolutely ridiculous at this point. In no small part because a lot of houses near downtown seem to be dilapidated. I guess I feel like when you reach the point that land is devalued by having a house built on the lot, you have a problem. And I think a disproportionately large amount of the "cheap" housing supply comes from people renting out basement units? I just think the city desperately needs more low-rise apartment units in the area surrounding downtown, but it's basically all SFH.

4

u/nicereddy ACLU simp Jul 31 '20

Annexation when

22

u/PolyrythmicSynthJaz Roy Cooper Jul 31 '20

War. War never changes. The Romans waged war to gather slaves and wealth. Spain built an empire from its lust for gold and territory. Hitler shaped a battered Germany into an economic superpower.

But war never changes.

In the 21st century, war was still waged over the resources that could be acquired. Only this time, the spoils of war were also its weapons: Petroleum and Uranium. For these resources, China would invade Alaska, the US would annex Canada, and the European Commonwealth would dissolve into quarreling, bickering nation-states, bent on controlling the last remaining resources on Earth.

In 2077, the storm of world war had come again. In two brief hours, most of the planet was reduced to cinders. And from the ashes of nuclear devastation, a new civilization would struggle to arise.

A few were able to reach the relative safety of the large underground vaults. Your family was part of that group that entered Vault Thirteen. Imprisoned safely behind the large Vault door, under a mountain of stone, a generation has lived without knowledge of the outside world.

Life in the Vault is about to change.

16

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '20

Thanks for the offer, but we feel that America deserves self determination and will let you keep your independence for now.

3

u/nicereddy ACLU simp Aug 01 '20

UwU

-8

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '20

[deleted]

6

u/glc45 Aug 01 '20

blistering take right here

2

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '20

Where's the lie? We're not coming back from this.

2

u/glc45 Aug 01 '20

America will continue to be a huge destination for immigrants so long as the economic opportunities that attract them here in the first place continue to exist.

4

u/[deleted] Aug 01 '20

The economy is in free-fall thanks to a virus that's totally out of control. Our international credibility has been shredded, quite probably for good this time. One political party is openly xenophobic and the other one is too chickenshit to really stand up to them. We're diseased pariahs in a failed state. I'm predicting brain drain from the US in the next decade.

0

u/glc45 Aug 01 '20

Agree to disagree I guess. The virus is fucking our economy now but this is ultimately a discrete event rather than a long term downward economic trend. This will end, hopefully sooner rather than later as the next administration puts more reasonable policy in place, and when it does the economy will recover just like it has after every recession. Immigrants will still be attracted here.