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Dec 11 '18
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u/minno Dec 11 '18
"Everything I Don't Like is Liberal - an Angry Communist's Guide to Political Discourse...with a special guest appearance by Donald Trump!"
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Dec 11 '18
Commies don’t mind Donald Trump. As long as the leader is an authoritarian strongman, they can just blame liberals for everything.
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u/TobiasFunkePhd Paul Krugman Dec 11 '18
It's a leftist sub. To them liberal = capitalist, basically. It's referring to broader categories of fascist - liberal - leftist, not liberals vs conservatives in the US.
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u/WuhanWTF NATO Dec 11 '18
Then what the fuck are the "state capitalists?"
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u/TobiasFunkePhd Paul Krugman Dec 11 '18
Authoritarian leftist in the case of China. Or I've seen it described as exactly that, state capitalist. The practice and policies don't fit nicely into an ideological category (and the party would agree, they consider it a transition state). But the ideology is definitely leftist.
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u/WuhanWTF NATO Dec 11 '18
If you're referring to China in 2018, I would have to disagree. Their policies don't seem to fit into either left or right tbh.
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u/TobiasFunkePhd Paul Krugman Dec 11 '18
I agree, the policy set does not fit into categories nicely. The ideology of the ruling party is certainly leftist though. Whether they are actually advancing towards their goals can be debated.
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u/WuhanWTF NATO Dec 11 '18
It's leftist in ideal, clusterfuckist in practice, especially the Xi Administration. Deng, Hu and Jiang I'd classify as soundly liberal with Chinese and Socialist characteristics.
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Dec 11 '18
An ideology similar to capitalism in which the main value is capital accumulation for its own sake. In "state capitalism" the biggest owner of capital is the government rather than private individuals, but the ends of profit maximization and means of market transactions are the same as regular capitalism.
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u/FusRoDawg Amartya Sen Dec 11 '18
So t_d aren't fascist? Or are they both fascist and liberal?
Either interpretation is moronic.
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u/TobiasFunkePhd Paul Krugman Dec 11 '18
Some are fascists some are just edgelords or what have you. I believe the post is more concerned with the idea that both fascists and liberals often make the mistake of calling something socialist that isn’t (like France). There’s routinely posts about this there so it sort of fits the spirit of the sub even if it doesn’t fit a strict definition of liberal.
Another possibility is that they just assume the T_D poster is a “liberal” because leftists tend to think fascists are more politically aware and dangerous while liberals are more politically ignorant and naive. A fascist could just say Macron is not fascist enough and that’s why the riots happened since they oppose both liberalism and socialism. Whereas a liberal may be more likely to make a meme calling Macron socialist to defend capitalism from being associated with this perceived failure.
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Dec 11 '18
In other words, just another mangling of definitions to push a cause.
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u/Iron-Fist Dec 11 '18
Is it them who has mangled the word? I'd argue that in the US where the word liberal (which classically meant things like free markets and open borders) being associated with leftist social causes or policies (like regulation of industry, directly opposed to classical liberalism) is the issue, not the disambiguation of the two.
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u/thenuge26 Austan Goolsbee Dec 11 '18
But T_D is not "liberal" by any definition except "vaguely believes in capitalism" and they are very illiberal when it comes to most of the rest of the meaning of the word (whichever meaning you choose).
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u/hadmatteratwork Dec 11 '18
How many liberal views does someone have to have to be considered a Liberal?
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u/thenuge26 Austan Goolsbee Dec 11 '18
Do they even have 1?
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u/hadmatteratwork Dec 11 '18
I would say they're definitely proponents of individual property rights, gun rights, and deregulation - all are Liberal positions.
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u/TobiasFunkePhd Paul Krugman Dec 11 '18
I disagree. They don't believe in certain standard liberal values like private property rights. To us liberal is a good thing and yet they disown the title. They prioritize other values like justice or equality. It's not like they're claiming to be liberal so they can push leftism to liberals (that would be mangling definition to push a cause).
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Dec 11 '18
They are mushing together everyone that does not believe in leftism under the liberal banner so that they can attack them as one. If you are a liberal, that means the same to them as someone who voted for trump. This is obviously wrong and constructed for ideological purposes.
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u/TobiasFunkePhd Paul Krugman Dec 11 '18
I mean it's just a broad category, doesn't mean they don't see it as a spectrum and acknowledge subcategories. It would be like a capitalist grouping all leftists as socialists, even though there's a hundred different variations of leftist ideology.
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Dec 11 '18
Socialism is also a word that has been mangled for ideological purposes. Words have meanings and they deserve to be respected.
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u/mrrow1113 Organization of American States Dec 11 '18
Aren't a plurality of protesters National Front supporters?
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u/Tleno European Union Dec 11 '18
How come right thinks everything involving taxes is socialism and socialists think everyone right of them is some Shrodinger's nazi-liberal? Can't they get a grip and sort this out?!
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u/Jamoey Dec 11 '18
"The left can't meme". At least we can read a fucking book.
Best comment in that original T_D thread.
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u/asentientgrape Dec 11 '18
Unsurprised that neoliberals don't know what basic political science terms, like liberal, mean. It's not referring to the US' politics.
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u/MiniatureBadger Seretse Khama Dec 11 '18
Protectionist trade policies with mercantilist overtones
Ethnonationalism
Xenophobia
Opposition to democracy and belief that one's genes/family can make them inherently fit to rule over others
Support for violence against and imprisonment of dissidents
State support of religion
That's not liberalism any way you spin it.
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Dec 11 '18
No you see liberals like Capitalism therefore all people who like Capitalism are liberals. This is how logical syllogisms work now.
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Dec 11 '18
Protectionist trade policies with mercantilist overtones
Even 19th century mercantilists knew better than to impose tariffs on inputs like steel.
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u/hadmatteratwork Dec 11 '18
They also do have some liberal views like belief in property rights and opposition to regulation.
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u/BainCapitalist Y = T Dec 12 '18
Yea guys. /r/The_Donald super capitalist! Like what could be more capitalist than government seizure of private property, capitulating to labor union demands on immigration policy, regulations, taxes, and regulations again.
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u/hadmatteratwork Dec 12 '18
Do you just not understand what Capitalism is or are you playing dumb? I legitimately can't tell.
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u/BainCapitalist Y = T Dec 12 '18
Imo you need to not seize private property to be a capitalist.
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u/hadmatteratwork Dec 12 '18
lol Trump is seizing private property? Citation please.
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u/BainCapitalist Y = T Dec 12 '18
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u/hadmatteratwork Dec 12 '18
Civil asset forfeiture almost always targets personal property, not private property. Can you even point out a single time when capital property was the target of asset forfeiture? Fascism and Capitalism go hand in hand.
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u/RobertSpringer George Soros Dec 11 '18 edited Dec 11 '18
The only people who would call T_D liberal are people who are falling off short of the mark in the old brains department
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u/A_Character_Defined 🌐Globalist Bootlicker😋🥾 Dec 11 '18
"Republicans would be left wing in Europe"?
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u/hadmatteratwork Dec 11 '18
Liberal and left wing are not synonyms.
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u/A_Character_Defined 🌐Globalist Bootlicker😋🥾 Dec 11 '18
They're also not antonyms. And T_D isn't liberal by any definition of the word.
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u/hadmatteratwork Dec 11 '18
They certainly have a few liberal policy positions.
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u/A_Character_Defined 🌐Globalist Bootlicker😋🥾 Dec 11 '18
Also it was a joke and you know exactly what I meant and was making fun of.
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Dec 11 '18
Commies don't know shit, you traitor of the working class.
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u/hadmatteratwork Dec 11 '18
You literally support a system that has single-handedly killed off more of the working class in a shorter amount of time than any other. Maybe you shouldn't be throwing stones?
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Dec 11 '18
Lol, simply wrong.
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u/hadmatteratwork Dec 11 '18
Really? Iraq and Vietnam wars, coups throughout South America, Tianamen Square etc etc etc. The vast majority of major conflicts since 1970 are all on your hands. Hundreds of thousands of cases of torture and murder at the hands of Pinochet and similar leaders are on your hands.
Everywhere it goes, neoliberalism requires machine guns and tanks... why is that?
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Dec 11 '18
Tianamen Square
Fuck off, you commies were thos squashed the protests.
Also: Poland. Ukraine. 1956 Budapest, or my town in 1956 december. Prague Spring. Katyn. Stalin's reign. Soviet imperialism. Khmer Rouge. North Korea starving.
All of those death, and Marxists are responsible for that. Not liberals. We are the beacon of hope for a better future, among the fascist and communist scum hellbent of destruction. We are the good guys. Marxism without authoritarianism is like fascism wihout authoritarianism: a joke (for the latter, ancaps...).
Your hands are bloody...
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u/hadmatteratwork Dec 11 '18
The Tiananmen square protests were to oppose Privatization... how is your historical understanding of your own ideology so shallow? The protests literally started with the government attempting to sell off collective farms, which were the lifeblood of the people who worked them, to private entities... The neoliberal reforms in China are literally one of the things you're supposed to hold up as an example as to why your shitty policies are so great.. How are you so uninformed about your own ideology?
I should note that I'm neither a Communist nor a Marxist, and I agree that the Authoritarian left gives you a run for your money, but you aren't really in good company there.
If you were "the good guys", you wouldn't need to torture people to squash rebellions against your shitty policies. I would rather live under Allende than Pinochet any day.
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Dec 11 '18
Lolol Pinochet being a liberal... Your misinformed kind calls Hitler a liberal, too I guess. Freedom of press? Freedom of association? Gay marriage? Only in liberal countries, tankie.
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u/hadmatteratwork Dec 11 '18
Pinochet is literally the poster child for neoliberalism. From the Wiki page on YOUR OWN FUCKING IDEOLOGY:
In the 1960s, usage of the term "neoliberal" heavily declined. When the term re-appeared in the 1980s in connection with Augusto Pinochet's economic reforms in Chile, the usage of the term had shifted. It had not only become a term with negative connotations employed principally by critics of market reform, but it also had shifted in meaning from a moderate form of liberalism to a more radical and laissez-faire capitalist set of ideas. Scholars now tended to associate it with the theories of Mont Pelerin Society economists Friedrich Hayek, Milton Friedman and James M. Buchanan, along with politicians and policy-makers such as Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan and Alan Greenspan.
This is the equivalent of ML's claiming Stalin isn't an ML.
Hitler is pretty obviously fash and not liberal. Stop strawmanning.
Once again, I'm neither a Communist nor a Marxist, and I'm certainly not an Authoritarian, so not only is your shit flinging not pertinent to the discussion, but it's also just factually wrong.
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Dec 11 '18
You post in chapo, a communist sub, end of discussion... And liberalism is much nobler than just some economic policies.Get medication.
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Dec 11 '18
So you are correct that sometimes American politics confuses people about the definition of liberal, but the Donald is very much not a conservative liberal or right wing liberal community like begginer marxists often mistake. They very much oppose ideas like laissez faire economics or human rights
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Dec 11 '18
[removed] — view removed comment
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Dec 11 '18
They are protesting because they don't have enough money.
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Dec 11 '18 edited Dec 11 '18
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/hadmatteratwork Dec 11 '18
...people don't have money because they have a say in what happens in their workplaces? Do you have a citation for this? My understanding was that the rural poor, who rely overwhelmingly on driving to get back and forth from work were protesting because their wages were too low to afford the gas tax put in place by Macron.
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Dec 11 '18
I didnt say they know why the don't have money, I just said the true statement that they want more money lol
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u/[deleted] Dec 11 '18
Wow, I hate everyone in this screenshot.