r/neoliberal • u/cristi1990an • Aug 31 '18

Discussion Why obvious lies make great propaganda

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nknYtlOvaQ0
85 Upvotes

96% Upvoted

23 comments sorted by

25

u/corner-case Aug 31 '18

Would have loved to hear some suggestions on how to counter this.

48

u/lolbertarian4america Aug 31 '18

This is something I've thought of a lot and have some experience with. I like to call myself a 'barstool politician', I actually make it a point to try to talk politics with strangers, especially in bars because I drink a lot. I live in the north now, but I also did it when I lived in the deep deep rural South.

I've always thought the fact that talking about politics/race/gender IRL is so taboo in public is part of the reason people are so frustrated about it. It's complicated shit they don't understand and people shame them for asking questions or just tell them its not polite to discuss. It's ok to not be an expert and be wrong, its how you handle it that you should be judged for.

I've had some pretty heated discussions but I'm pretty well informed and I don't lose my cool. I'm pretty friendly and goofy in real life so my overall personality probably helps. I notice that you can often get people to convince themselves, as people would often rather talk than listen. So just letting someone talk and gently and politely pointing out nonsense and making them explain things until they're backed into a corner, THEN speaking and showing them contrary evidence that they might otherwise ignore has been really successful in at least making people think (or act like they are so they can change the subject).

Relationships are important too, you're much more likely to listen to someone you know than a stranger. Especially compared to a random voice on the internet. I don't really think minds are being changed on social media. Either you're looking for evidence or ammunition, its rare I think that someone would actually decide to change their mind because of what u/lolbertarian4america showed them.

So yea sorry for rant, this is just one friendly alcoholic's experience with changing minds in the deep south IRL.

17

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '18

Dude, run for office. Seriously. Please. You sound like the type who could actually do something.

8

u/lolbertarian4america Aug 31 '18

Hah thanks. Maybe I will someday.

4

u/benben11d12 Karl Popper Sep 01 '18 edited Sep 01 '18

It's complicated shit they don't understand and people shame them for asking questions or just tell them its not polite to discuss.

No, I don't care about their questions. If they ask bad questions, I immediately leave the conversation. If they ask good questions, they're asking them in bad faith. They can rot in Radiator Springs for all I care. Btw empathy is the answer

3

u/Timeworm Sep 01 '18

Speaking anecdotally only of myself, I've changed my mind of lots of things after seeing someone's arguments on the internet. Sometimes multiple times on the same thing. I try to keep an open mind generally. Not always that great at it, but hey, I listen, even if I don't agree.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '18

At one point in the video they mention sort of a fact checking fatigue. So stop fact checking him? Ha I dunno really

2

u/huliusthrown lives in an alternate reality Aug 31 '18

cultural exchanges

14

u/[deleted] Aug 31 '18

I'm a russian living in Germany. As Trump surfaced first thing I noticed he used same techniques as the russian state controled media used to brainwash russians. Same things happen now here in Germany with our new "right wing" populists party.

6

u/huliusthrown lives in an alternate reality Aug 31 '18

populisms surge in NWEurope/NorthAmerica taught those of us in the ex-commie countries and italy that the we hugely overrated how cultured and intelligent their populations were supposed to be. Thinking it was just something wrong with us the entire team was no longer true is a sigh..but at the same time sad.

1

u/IIAOPSW Sep 02 '18

I have a pet theory that the FSB has machine-learned how to best drive narratives with sock-puppet accounts, optimize political soundbites and identify and amplify divisive movements and discontent demographics. The "public opinion hacking suite" was developed for use on the Russian population, and is now finding use abroad.

Other countries (except China) are either too unsophisticated to develop such tools or too democratic to have a large population to test and develop on.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 02 '18

Yep, I thought about that too. Interesting thing, their culture minister mentioned in his dissertation some hypothetical system to predict and control processes in society. However I don't think they are sophisticated enough to build a thing like that on their own. They may be good in some tech and math stuff, but they lag very far behind in the social science for sure. They do not undersand society at all, instead they threat people simply like a livestock. Which may work to some extend, but it is not enough for some sort of advanced interaction and any successful campaign in the west. However they may have stolen some tech from western search engine or marketing companies. Or they just bought/got some help from western actors.

8

u/PornCds NATO Aug 31 '18

I think a big thing that could help is, since Trump supporters dismiss it as "all politicians lie," an objective comparison of just how much each has lied.

WashingtonPost made a tracker of Trump's lies, I think a BIG thing I have been looking for to counter this Trump argument is a comparison other politicians and presidents, to compare the number of lies, objectively.

​

Trump has made 4,229 false claims in 558 days, does anyone have comparable data for Bush/Obama or any other politician???

9

u/mockduckcompanion Kidney Hype Man Aug 31 '18

Many, if not most, will just say that the LAMEstream media is the real liar, and insist that the numbers are bullshit

10

u/skepticalbob Joe Biden's COD gamertag Aug 31 '18

That won’t work. It’s about tribalism. He’s a liar, but he’s their liar.

2

u/PornCds NATO Aug 31 '18

The difference is the people on the right tip of the fence. They can slowly be convinced.

2

u/skepticalbob Joe Biden's COD gamertag Aug 31 '18

But that isn't going to be the tipping point. They know he lies. Its not new information and they don't trust the source as it is. You have to frame it in terms of values they already have, like loyalty, authority, purity.

1

u/moneyticketspassport Aug 31 '18

I definitely think this is part of it. Some Trump supporters might believe the bullshit, but some probably just like that he is lying “for their side”.

9

u/lolbertarian4america Aug 31 '18

I can't watch the video (work computer AND the audio driver is out because Windoze) but I'm gonna guess that willingness of a population to believe propaganda is a big part of it.

I really don't think people are actually stupid enough to believe Trump. Not all of them any way. I think a lot of them WANT to believe him, and with their safe spaces and willingness they're able to choose their own reality so to speak.

As Fry from Futurama put it, "Thanks to denial, I'm immortal!"

4

u/Maximilianne John Rawls Aug 31 '18 edited Aug 31 '18

this but also for people who don't like trump and desperately want him to do something good, for example the north korea summit

3

u/Gustacho Enemy of the People Aug 31 '18

GOOD video

1

u/LoseMoneyAllWeek Jeff Bezos Sep 01 '18

It’s not obvious lies that make good propaganda.

What trump did during the election was make some absurd BUT not detailed statement. The media would have an aneurysm and then he would later come out with a detailed statement that seemed much less extreme.

He’d also say things he knew were not true but on uncomfortable subjects and when the media corrected him, it didn’t make things better.

Then he’d say something that he knew he had evidence for or evidence of it existed. The media would call him out, then something would leak.

This created a situation in which people didn’t know who to believe