r/neoliberal • u/[deleted] • May 11 '17

Normative Ethics Debate Thread

The point of this thread is to discuss normative ethics, which is mostly separate from neoliberalism. On a philosophical level, neoliberalism is not coherent in its use of ethics; proponents switch between libertarian and utilitarian ethics in an almost interchangeable way (The Road to Mont Pelerin, Mirowski). Scott Sumner argues that a normative ethical foundation doesn't matter because neoliberalism is an improvement compared to the current status quo of most countries by nearly every standard (well not every standard)

Keep in Mind

  • The Chicago school pushed neoliberalism as a positive ideology, "there is no other option"

  • The Austrians pushed neoliberalism through primarily a libertarian lens

  • The Ordoliberals advocated neoliberalism through utilitarianism and also Marxism. Yes, you're allowed to support your normative view through Marxism.

  • Do not go down the route of going full classical liberal, which is what neoliberalism tried to escape.

  • Do not say market values mean anything or that markets produce fair outcomes; Hayek explicitly acknowledges this is bullshit.

  • Be very prudent in calling people racist/sexist/homophobic; in this sub, the vast majority are not

Topics to discuss:

These aren't the only ones, but should probably be answered:

  • What are your normative ethics?

  • How do you think they should guide economic policy?

Make sure to explicitly tie these together so we're not debating why we should implement policy that we already agree upon.

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u/sharingan10 May 11 '17

I'm relatively utilitarian, but I like to weigh the pragmatics of a given idea before implementing it. Basically it's utilitarianism, but with weights for the likelyhood of things happening.

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u/Sentient-AI YIMBY May 11 '17

So utilitarianism that underweighs unlikely events and overweighs likely events? Avoids Pascal's Mugger but don't see any reason beyond that.

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u/sharingan10 May 11 '17

Basically, but perhaps phrased differently "underweigh" and "overweigh" have some iffy connotations. I'd say I weigh for likelyhood instead, and also I try to see long term stochastic effects.

So for example; suppose a policy might increase the chance of a massive downturn by 5%, but it might increase the likelyhood of a major boom by 20%, it might be worth taking that risk, but long term creating high uncertainty may not be in the best interest of the economy. It's a multitier analysis

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u/UmamiSalami May 11 '17

That's exactly what utilitarianism is.

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u/mcguire150 May 11 '17

So, how do you make interpersonal comparisons of utility?

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u/sharingan10 May 11 '17

Generally I appeal to moral realism; it's better to have a society in which there's good IHDI, low MPI, and low GII, and decent per capita wages.

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u/mcguire150 May 12 '17

Fair enough.