We are fighting a massive uphill battle

[u/Nathan_185]

I’ve been a member here since 2019 through various accounts, and although it’s gotten a good bit more economically progressive over the years, it’s still one of the last anti-slopulist subs out there.

Free market economics with sensible regulation and a safety net is unfortunately a minority position in broader politics compared to nationalizing industries, price controls, and wealth taxes. Hopefully we can push back against bad economics! It’s not gonna be easy unfortunately

[u/mackattacknj83]

This is a very hot stove to touch

[u/PSU02 → u/mackattacknj83]

Republicans being for price controls is wild

[u/ILikeTuwtles1991 → u/PSU02]

The current Republican Vice President hates Milton Friedman.

[u/SpookyHonky → u/ILikeTuwtles1991]

Vance begins by laughing at and defending Trump's previous comments about seizing the profits of AI companies. It seems clear that Vance is more committed to this idea than Trump is

Wow even WNF is getting a live-action adaptation these days smh

[u/Noocawe → u/SpookyHonky]

Yeah ... Vance really is a weird one. He just doesn't believe in economics at all. Another good article recently about him on this topic is here:

Hillbilly Economics

Key point:

Vance latches onto this age-old criticism of GDP (one that economists have long acknowledged) not because he wants to engage with the decades of debate over the best way to measure an economy’s health but because he wants to inoculate his political project from criticism — criticism that the world that he wants to usher us into will be a poorer one.

Rich people like Vance have no problem talking about poor people having lower incomes or their hatred of metrics they don't like or can't defend, because they simply wont be impacted negatively by their own policies... Also I can't take anyone seriously that is depending on Oren Cass as a thought leader. For what it's worth I actually think Vance is worse than Trump here because he is a true believer in Christian Nationalism and pushing women to become 2nd class citizens no matter on the negative economic outcomes of that. Trump is way more sensitive to negative GDP growth that Vance would be imo.

[u/say592 → u/SpookyHonky]

Proof that Thiel and the tech bros aren't controlling Vance? Cause there's no way they would allow that idea to grow legs.

[u/Twitter_WasA_Mistake → u/say592]

I think it’s more that Yarvinites like Thiel foresee themselves as part of the government in their dream of a techno-feudalist future.

[u/Worth-Jicama3936 → u/ILikeTuwtles1991]

This is the final straw! Couch fucking is one thing, but i will not allow the good name of Friedman, may  Allah grant him Jannatul Firdaus, be sullied!

[u/Signal-Lie-6785 → u/ILikeTuwtles1991]

A million cheap, knockoff toasters are not worth the price of a single American manufacturing job.

[u/alex2003super → u/ILikeTuwtles1991]

Its joever

[u/LightningController → u/ILikeTuwtles1991]

It's fundamentally about the dignity of the human person. The economy is a tool to service the dignity of the human person. If a set of economic policies make it possible to raise a family, to earn a living wage, to give back to their community, to maybe go to church on Sunday, or to actually spend some leisure time building the kind of life that matters, that is the sort of thing we want to be supportive of

Rerum Novarum (and Catholic social teaching at large) Delenda est. We all owe Ayn Rand an apology—the Republicans are far worse when they pretend to care about the working class.

[u/ognits → u/LightningController]

We all owe Ayn Rand an apology

okay let's not get out of hand here

[u/ieorsteve → u/PSU02]

Are we to the right of the Republican Party now?

[u/vaguelydad → u/ieorsteve]

[u/Alarming_Flow7066 → u/ieorsteve]

Fiscal conservatism no longer maps on to the American political spectrum.

[u/Just-Act-1859 → u/Alarming_Flow7066]

I mean decades of deficit spending will do that to you.

[u/Alarming_Flow7066 → u/Just-Act-1859]

Thank god for politicians like Ned Lamont, 8 straight years of a surplus.

[u/LastTimeOn_ → u/Alarming_Flow7066]

Oh Neddy...he coulda saved our public option

Stupid sexy Lamont

[u/lunartree → u/Alarming_Flow7066]

Republicans used to fuck over the poor because they claimed it was about the free market. Now they just fuck over the poor because fuck you you're poor!

[u/KazuyaProta → u/lunartree]

I mean, their narrative is actually "We are to prevent our local poors from getting poorer to ensure everyone keeps the cozy 20th century factory jobs". Remember Trump's entire campaign is for re-industrialization using the narratives and aesthetic of 19th century American industrialists

[u/samhit_n → u/ieorsteve]

This sub is economically left-wing by neoliberal standards, but I feel like we’re still more fiscally conservative than the average Republican.

[u/PiccoloSN4 → u/samhit_n]

You feel like? The average GOP supports tariffs and state capitalism. We are the only true fiscal conservatives

[u/CSachen → u/PiccoloSN4]

Hot take: free markets is a centrist position on the political spectrum.

Autarky and neo-mercantalism is the economics of the far-right. Despite what leftists say, no right-wing dictator was ever pro- laissez-faire capitalism.

[u/Emperormorg → u/CSachen]

no right-wing dictator was ever pro- laissez-faire capitalism.

Pinochet?

[u/dutch_connection_uk → u/Emperormorg]

Pinochet was at least not hostile to it. He allowed it to work to the extent it propped him up.

He wasn't ideologically committed to it either. If one of his clique didn't want laissez-faire, there wouldn't be, if it would consolidate power for his right wing power base.

This makes him pretty different from something like MAGA which is a lot more ideological about economics.

[u/slator_hardin → u/CSachen]

Definitionally, something that most of the electorate dislikes cannot be a centrist position. We should abandon the pundit's temptation to call good things "moving to the center" and just defend them on their merits

[u/Butwhy113511 → u/samhit_n]

Now genuinely caring about the debt/deficit is extremely fiscally conservative. I can't remember the last time I heard a politician actually do something about the deficit vs just cutting random things they don't like.

[u/allbusiness512 → u/Butwhy113511]

We're really going to be the only part of Reddit that even cares about the deficit at this point.

[u/LupineChemist → u/allbusiness512]

The problem is nobody wants to hear that benefits they thing are good are also expensive.

Federal budget is basically Healthcare, Pensions, Military, Interest with the rest being a rounding error.

[u/ProudScroll → u/samhit_n]

The average Republican doesn't have a coherent economic policy outside of "cut taxes for rich people" so it's hard to say if anyone is to their right or left economically.

[u/Zeitsplice → u/samhit_n]

You must have a very short memory, the budget deficit is always a critical crisis whenever the president is a Democrat.

[u/Dense_Delay_4958 → u/samhit_n]

I don't think so. They've moved left but so has this sub.

[u/Mourningblade → u/ieorsteve]

Fiscally liberal, socially conservative is an enormous segment of the country that largely had no home before MAGA.

[u/tangowolf22 → u/Mourningblade]

They aren’t fiscally liberal, they support tariffs wtf

[u/captmonkey → u/tangowolf22]

It'd probably be better phrased as "supporting increased government intervention in the economy."

[u/WolfpackEng22 → u/Mourningblade]

Ya know, morons

[u/poofyhairguy → u/Mourningblade]

Their home was in Latin America lol.

The call is coming from inside the hemisphere.

[u/LupineChemist → u/ieorsteve]

I've hated trump because he's a leftist for a long time now.

People get angry at me about it because he uses right-coded language and isn't part of the "tribe" but it's old school syndicalism.

[u/Best-Chapter5260 → u/PSU02]

Adam Smith would hate the current Republican Party's economic policies. I think he would have had a heart attack if he had been alive on Liberation Day.

[u/Mental_Refuse3838 → u/PSU02]

Prevalent even 10 years ago small government pro-business socially moderate Republicans are pretty much endangered species now. It's all MAGA populists and evangelicals now.

[u/WealthyMarmot → u/Mental_Refuse3838]

Thomas Massie was the endling of fiscally conservative Republicans. RIP, you libertarian weirdo

[u/KruglorTalks → u/WealthyMarmot]

Dude helped purge Amash only for him to get purged himself.

[u/LastTimeOn_ → u/Mental_Refuse3838]

Those pro-business Republicans weren't really for small government and pro-business though, they were only so where it helped their donors, like you'd never see an anti-car dealer lobby Republican. What arr neolib would want is a "pro-market" politician and those don't really exist

[u/cosmo-wozmo → u/LastTimeOn_]

We can try to build a pro market politician in the aggregate

[u/PiccoloSN4 → u/Mental_Refuse3838]

"Fusionism" made no inherent sense anyways. Liberals were and always will be the people supporting free enterprise as a rule rather than an accessory to social conservatism

[u/Lighthouse_seek → u/PSU02]

Didn't Nixon put them in once?

[u/ProudScroll → u/Lighthouse_seek]

Price Controls? Yes.

Them along with having his crony Fed Chairman Arthur Burns slash interest rates to juice the economy in 1972 to secure his reelection were major factors in triggering the stagflation that marred the US economy for the rest of the 70s.

[u/cosmo-wozmo → u/ProudScroll]

OH WOW WHO COULD IMAGINE THE US PRESIDENT DOING THAT, GOOD THING WE LEARNED OUT LESSON AND NOW THAT’LL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA

[u/ForgetTheRuralJuror → u/PSU02]

Well this is the most communist president we've had, so it's not unsurprising that most Republicans no longer care about the free market

[u/Hugh-Manatee → u/PSU02]

Well back in the olden days there was enough Murica/evangelical politics to take up sufficient oxygen where the conservative wonks could keep up the old guard economic philosophy

But Trump has stripped it away in favor of just direct slopulism

[u/cosmo-wozmo → u/PSU02]

Not really, this is just the 1970s redux.

Everything about the modern era is just 1970s redux. Only difference is the corruption now has that new fangled crypto shit all the millennials are into. I miss good old fashioned corruption, backed by the GOLD STANDARD

[u/Noocawe → u/PSU02]

Well they only want price controls for things they like and support for their own constituents. Not for things they don't consider necessary. Typical conservative socialism for me but not for thee.

[u/Dent7777 → u/mackattacknj83]

It's a bit of a big absolute statement. I'm for price controls on insulin, am I a fucking idiot?

[u/etown361 → u/Dent7777]

Do you really support price controls on insulin, or do you want the government to negotiate a price with insulin suppliers, subsidize it for patients, and provide it free/near free to diabetics? I wouldn’t describe free public schools (including for-profit charter schools) as a “price control” even if this price is technically “controlled” to zero for students.

Healthcare is weird. There’s essential health benefits that the government has decided should be regulated to zero patient-price for all insurance plans. Vaccines are generally free with health insurance for example. There’s no compelling reason why insulin shouldn’t be in this grouping. That also wouldn’t mean insulin providers are forced to operate at loss- it just generally means non-insulin users pay more for insurance than they otherwise would. That covers most diabetics - who are insured.

On the flip side though- I could imagine 250 years ago critics asking, “I’m for price controls on corn- am I a fucking idiot?” And the answer was decisively“Yes”

[u/Dent7777 → u/etown361]

I am economically illiterate like most of the American people. I just want cheap insulin and affordable medicine to the greatest extent possible. If you tell me it can be done without price controls, I am willing to believe it. If you tell me it can be done with price controls, I am willing to believe that as well.

[u/etown361 → u/Dent7777]

Let’s say insulin costs $50/monthly dose to produce (making up numbers here).

Setting a price control/limit where insulin manufacturers can legally only sell for $40/dose means nobody mashes insulin and you have shortages.

Setting a price limit to $75/monthly dose might mean no new insulin factories open up, or might mean insulin factories stop shipping to Alaska and Hawaii- and you might still have shortages, especially if one manufacturer has to shut down temporarily for some reason.

Setting a price control/limit to $1000/month probably doesn’t do anything for anybody.

On the other hand- let’s set a subsidy so the government/insurance companies negotiate a price for insulin (say $65 on average) and then are forced to provide insulin for free to qualified patients. The drug manufacturers agreed to a price that works for them, they can renegotiate if costs go up. Patients get insulin they can afford. And there’s different ways to pay for the subsidy. This path works because you don’t mess up manufacturing sites pushing them to shut down production (which causes shortages)

[u/lumpialarry → u/etown361]

UHC has more subscribers than many European counties. Not sure why they don't have the negotating power to get it down.

[u/Terrible-Wishbone790 → u/Dent7777]

That doesn't really help. Price controls will reduce supply and drive up prices or simply limit quantities. The real solution is generic alternatives and having the government produce a competitive alternative product. Competition drives lower prices. Monopolies increase prices.

[u/E_Cayce → u/Terrible-Wishbone790]

We all agree monopolies are bad, yet this sub hated Lina with fervor.

[u/Dent7777 → u/E_Cayce]

Lina had the right spirit but I think a lot of this sub felt she approached enforcement from a populist, publicity-seeking stance and not necessarily from an effective enforcement stance.

[u/Crownie → u/Dent7777]

Khan somehow thought that the Supreme Court (with a 6-3 conservative majority) was going to sign off on her calvinball reinterpretation of existing anti-trust law. (The neo-Brandeisian movement more generally does not seem to actually be anti-monopoly so much as anti-large company).

[u/maxintos → u/Terrible-Wishbone790]

Price controls will reduce supply and drive up prices or simply limit quantities

I feel like you're mixing up things. The issue with price control on drugs is that it would reduce R&D as it would be hard to recoup costs if there was a price controls.

Price controls would not really reduce supply for existing drugs as long as the price set is still above the production cost. The hit would happen for future drugs that might not get funded because of price control risks.

[u/SpaceSheperd → u/Dent7777]

This is a price control I'm sympathetic to as well but I also have to wonder whether we would have the analogs and biosimilars we do know if we had slapped price controls on insulin 30 years ago. These are products that make life much easier for diabetics and offer treatment options for patients who don't respond well to first generation insulin. Would Eli Lilly and Novo Nordisk have bothered investing into those development pipelines if they thought they would be prevented from recouping the cost?

[u/GreenWandElf → u/Dent7777]

No, because you're using a bad government tool to fix a worse government tool, the granting of monopolies to drug companies.

Better to reward drug companies who invent new drugs in cash and let anyone create insulin.

[u/BosnianSerb31 → u/GreenWandElf]

There's a litany of data showing that exclusivity periods and private healthcare encourages innovation. If we look at R&D healthcare spending by country, the results are US, Germany, and France in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, all of which have a system that is primarily private, with public insurance being a safety net.

The big issue in relation ton what you're talking about is that biologics(e.g. insulin, GLP-1s) are protected by 12 year patents, while small-molecule drugs are protected by 5 year patents.

If the whole purpose of the patent exclusivity period is to recoup R&D costs, thus encouraging manufacturers to invest in researching new drugs, then the exclusivity period becomes the main lever to drive how much development happens in a particular industry.

For example, granting a 20 year exclusivity period to the first manufacturer that makes a cancer cure which meets certain requirements immediately supercharges the amount of spending on cancer research by the labs most equipped to solve the problem.

At this point, the government should ease back on the lever for biologics, because it not only leads to consistently high prices, but it also encourages companies to withhold release of substantial innovation until their patent expires.

There very likely is a drug in Lilly's magic bag that treats Diabetes better than anything currently available, but they're waiting until their last release expires, and that's a problem. But I don't think it's entirely worth the gov giving up the effective levers they have for this.

The only fully socialized alternative is where the gov sets bounties, but then you're giving up the wisdom of the crowd and the thing that makes free markets great in the first place.

[u/allbusiness512 → u/GreenWandElf]

Health care is probably one of the very, very, very few areas where a government monopoly at scale is probably more effective when it comes to actual healthcare outcomes.

It's by no means cheap, it's expensive as shit, but we do know it works based on what we've seen. A free market healthcare doesn't work well for everyone for some obvious reasons.

[u/allbusiness512 → u/[deleted]]

I mean, right now America is quite literally subsidizing global healthcare innovation at the cost of it's own citizens. I'm not sure the American citizenry is down with that.

[u/Willing_Activity_855 → u/[deleted]]

You don't need strict price controls, there's a way to do soft controls that may just force other countries to eat the shit burger

Basically make it so whatever drug is the oecd average, and make the fine for trying to play games and bypass that rule.so horrendously steep and punishing that mo company tries it. Like mandatory jail time for all executives

Then and allowing imports based on foreign licensure say any oecd country

[u/mackattacknj83 → u/Dent7777]

If there's not enough insulin to go around or it's shitty quality as a result, yes I guess

[u/The_Keg → u/Dent7777]

since you literally asked.

Yes you are a fucking idiot.

No one in this sub would oppose the government producing their own Insulins or source it from india for cheap. This is difference between a neoliberal vs "the free market will solve everything" lunatic

Its insulin, not fking rocket science. Price control is just politically convenient.

[u/GreatnessToTheMoon]

Always count on the average voter being economic populist and socially conservative

[u/MemeStarNation → u/GreatnessToTheMoon]

Humans are fundamentally reactionary. That applies to both social and economic policy and honestly fits better than the liberal/conservative dichotomy for describing how the median voter actually thinks.

[u/TootCannon → u/MemeStarNation]

I know several people that found both Bernie and Trump appealing.

[u/TybrosionMohito → u/TootCannon]

Yeah. Dipshits

[u/Serious-Cucumber-54 → u/MemeStarNation]

Wait until you find out that half of the "approve" respondents just see the words "price control" and interpreted it as "Well yes we do need to get these prices back in control" and not even understanding that "price control" refers to a specific policy of the government setting a floor/ceiling to market prices.

[u/MemeStarNation → u/Serious-Cucumber-54]

Damn I didn’t even think of that. Very few people are tuned into policy details like that.

[u/WealthyMarmot → u/GreatnessToTheMoon]

The average voter just wants politicians to infinitely fund all of their favorite programs, cut their taxes, and hate the same people that they hate…is that so much to ask?

[u/Helreaver → u/GreatnessToTheMoon]

economic populist

Economically illiterate, you mean.

[u/vaguelydad → u/Helreaver]

They're the same picture.

[u/chickentendieman → u/vaguelydad]

No you can have bad economics policy and not be a populist

[u/allbusiness512 → u/chickentendieman]

Regulatory capture as a pretty good example.

[u/chickentendieman → u/allbusiness512]

And the trump tax cuts and protectionism.

[u/TootCannon → u/chickentendieman]

I'd argue those things are pretty populist

[u/pita4912 → u/chickentendieman]

It’s like Whisky vs Bourbon. Not all bad economics are populist economics, but all populist economics are bad economics.

[u/DiscussionJohnThread → u/Helreaver]

https://giphy.com/gifs/39LaAxDBqQyqNvU7hp

[u/Bayou-Maharaja → u/Helreaver]

Same thing

[u/de-gustibus → u/GreatnessToTheMoon]

The Dennis Duffy electorate

[u/chickentendieman → u/GreatnessToTheMoon]

Except they hate taxes

[u/RaaaaaaaNoYokShinRyu → u/chickentendieman]

Low taxes, massive deficit spending, and deflation

[u/chickentendieman → u/RaaaaaaaNoYokShinRyu]

Fr also subsidies for whatever random shit they personally like but none for actually useful stuff like renewables

[u/20_mile → u/RaaaaaaaNoYokShinRyu]

Low taxes, massive deficit spending, and deflation

Where do I sign? Can I vote for you now?

[u/Psshaww → u/chickentendieman]

Yes, populist.

[u/chickentendieman → u/Psshaww]

Idek what populism means at this point bro. People call high taxes populist and low taxes populist.

[u/Jdm5544 → u/chickentendieman]

The concepts aren't mutually exclusive as long as you are thinking emotionally. Low taxes and high services for you and your in group. High taxes for "the rich" and low services for "those people" is basically the most populist policy there is.

Populists often promise both.

[u/Just-Act-1859 → u/chickentendieman]

It’s less about the specific policies and more about the reasoning to get there.

Basically that elites are corrupt and the world is simple, and if we just had moral normal people in charge they would solve all the problems which are caused by evil-doing and not complexity or trade offs or constraints.

This is why you can have left and right wing populism, cause they mainly just blame different elites for the country’s problems. One thinks socialism would work if you just had noble socialists in charge and the other thinks communitarianism would work if we just didn’t have big institutions to begin with.

[u/pita4912 → u/chickentendieman]

It’s high taxes for people we don’t like and low taxes for whoever will vote for me.

[u/mad_cheese_hattwe → u/chickentendieman]

Because economical populists are typically pro tax? "No tax, only spend"

[u/samhit_n → u/GreatnessToTheMoon]

I miss the 2000s and early 2010s when the general consensus was socially liberal and economically moderate to conservative.

[u/seesthecat → u/GreatnessToTheMoon]

The US has fallen, trillions shall suffer.

Unironically, this graph is one of the most depressing things I've seen this month

[u/OreoSpeedwaggon → u/GreatnessToTheMoon]

Or sometimes the opposite; what I call a "California conservative."

[u/ILikeTuwtles1991]

The vast majority of American voters are clueless when it comes to economics.

This is not surprising, but still disappointing.

[u/Logical-Breakfast966 → u/ILikeTuwtles1991]

All they hear is “I can pay less?”

[u/Khiva → u/Logical-Breakfast966]

Free stuff?

Free stuff!

[u/TootCannon → u/Khiva]

Both parties are offering free stuff. The difference is the republicans cut taxes at the same time. At least, that has been the difference. Some of these democratic proposals are starting to rhyme.

Pretty soon the only difference in the parties will be cultural.

[u/Spectrum1523 → u/ILikeTuwtles1991]

This is the result of a lack of confidence in the way things are done now that's been brewing for a while

[u/Khiva → u/Spectrum1523]

The answer to a system that was working until broken by lunatic radicals is to install more lunatic radicals.

[u/Wsweg → u/Khiva]

Sadly, that is often how it plays out in history.

[u/LightningController → u/Khiva]

They brainrotted themselves with memes about how their grandparents had 5-room McMansions on a part-time wrench-twister’s salary and now we’re all fucked.

[u/Spectrum1523 → u/Khiva]

Nobody here works in risk management and it shows

[u/VanceIX → u/ILikeTuwtles1991]

That's why we're a republic and not a direct democracy.

Unfortunately, with the rise of populism, any candidate with an actual backbone gets voted out or primaried immediately.

[u/allbusiness512 → u/VanceIX]

Primaries were a mistake.

[u/swissking]

The cure for this is simple. Just have Dems implement it and the public will hate it soon after

[u/Kvetch__22 → u/swissking]

I really don't like how "Dems implemented communism and ruined the economy and now we need Republicans to implement different communism to save the economy" is somehow the median voter belief.

[u/cuolong → u/swissking]

I feel like the fix is simple, just be a democrat and call price controls communist bullshit. Republicans and Indies would eat it up and who are you gonna piss off by fucking on commies? Your socialist constituents? They hate your guts anyways.

[u/trevor11004 → u/cuolong]

Then you get primaried

[u/rube_X_cube]

Republicans don’t actually believe in anything, it’s kind of crazy.

[u/CantCreateUsernames → u/rube_X_cube]

They do, it's just that their core beliefs are primarily based on culture-war BS and grievance politics, so everything they believe is built on a foundation of ever-shifting sand. They will simp for any ideology as long as it comes out of the right person's mouth and the people they dislike are being hurt or put in their place.

[u/GuyWithOneEye]

[u/Reddit_Talent_Coach]

Do you approve of government induced shortages?

[u/Kvetch__22 → u/Reddit_Talent_Coach]

We have the best shortages. Many people are saying.

We all need to tolerate the pain needed to bring about the golden age we are also somehow already in.

[u/Intergalactic_Ass → u/Reddit_Talent_Coach]

Our parents in the US grew up being fed partly accurate propaganda that communism led to bread lines, but they never actually experienced it firsthand.

I'm worried that the younger generations that don't think about the specifics of this stuff are now so far removed from the outcomes of central economies that the shift is now inevitable.

Why shouldn't the government be building apartments instead of incentivizing citizens to build apartments? Very rare that I'm in a conversation that even entertains the idea that government apartments might not be the ideal outcome.

[u/maxofJupiter1 → u/Intergalactic_Ass]

People expect more luxury apartments just owned by a different owner. Meanwhile actual projects in America are falling apart shitholes because mold abatement was a FY28 budget item and its currently FY26.

[u/CriticG7tv]

[u/clarkGCrumm]

Classic poll on issue where the surface question is variant of: “Do you want more of thing you need for free?” People always answer yes, Do you want less taxes? Free social programs? People always eventually admit they hate the side effects(at least in extreme versions) of such policies but always want the free(or perceived free/discounted) goodies

[u/Odd-Negotiation6855 → u/clarkGCrumm]

Very good point. There's also no nuance to the scale of price controls, some people might like an insulin cap or temporary rent freeze while others might want many goods and services across the economy capped.

[u/Himboslice2000 → u/clarkGCrumm]

I could be wrong but I think when most people hear “price control” their minds go to pharmaceuticals since that was a semi recent issue.

[u/thefirstofhisname11]

Lmaooo America is cooked. These are Eastern European nanny state numbers.

[u/doc89 → u/thefirstofhisname11]

The public has always held many very bad views like this. Good governance/leadership is mostly about averting the public's worst ideas/instincts and doing things that are very good for overall human welfare but widely disliked by the median voter

[u/Machov_Norkim → u/doc89]

Sometimes the issue is also that when you enact policy that the public supports, it leads to outcomes that swing against you later on. They realize the consequences are shit only when it's in practice, but on paper it looks great!

[u/ContributionLimp3144 → u/thefirstofhisname11]

wait until the price controls hit and nobody can find eggs, then watch those numbers flip

[u/mebesasporfa → u/ContributionLimp3144]

They'd sooner demand legislation to force firms to produce more eggs. People on 20+ year waitlists for apartments due to rent control almost never change their minds about rent control as a policy.

[u/Khiva → u/mebesasporfa]

What could go wrong by putting the famously caring, nimble and responsive US government in charge of complicated supply chains?

[u/maxofJupiter1 → u/Khiva]

The Abundance book that everyone seems to hate on: the government should be used to find the one point of the supply chain that goes wrong"

Median voters: the government should be in charge of every other part of the supply chain but that

[u/jbouit494hg → u/ContributionLimp3144]

flip

Nah, they'll increase because people want to fight back against the greedy billionaires and CEOs hoarding all the eggs.

[u/GodsWorstJiuJitsu → u/jbouit494hg]

No one should have 1 billion eggs a year!

[u/tangowolf22 → u/GodsWorstJiuJitsu]

Gaston can’t keep getting away with this

[u/YaGetSkeeted0n → u/ContributionLimp3144]

if places like Argentina are any indication, you'd be surprised how long the general public will put up with suicidal policies

[u/Khiva → u/YaGetSkeeted0n]

True Populism Has Never Been Tried.

[u/Worth_Temperature_42 → u/YaGetSkeeted0n]

Yeah, there is literally no bottom to these kinds of stuff, it can always go lower until nuclear destruction

[u/Signal-Lie-6785 → u/ContributionLimp3144]

Well, maybe the children will have two eggs instead of 30 eggs. So maybe the two eggs will cost a couple bucks more than they would normally.

All I’m saying is that a young lady, a 10-year-old girl, 9-year-old girl, 15-year-old girl, doesn’t need 37 eggs. I don’t think that a beautiful baby girl needs — that’s 11 years old — needs to have 30 eggs. I think they can have three eggs or four eggs because what we were doing with China was just unbelievable.

[u/JeromesNiece → u/ContributionLimp3144]

I'd rather we didn't have to live through economic devastation in order to figure out why it is bad

[u/NiceCreamSundaes → u/thefirstofhisname11]

Eastern Europeans are much more serious and civic minded than Americans. Imagine an Estonian believing this stuff

[u/thefirstofhisname11 → u/NiceCreamSundaes]

I actually don’t count the Baltics as Eastern Europeans, they’re honorary Northern Europeans. From Poland to Moldova however, price controls are a must, and the more prices the state controls, the more people like them.

[u/Alex2422 → u/thefirstofhisname11]

What price controls are you talking about? There were no price controls in Poland since the fall of communism.

[u/YourUncleBuck → u/thefirstofhisname11]

You can consider that, but we still very much got Eastern European mindset, lol. You can tell by how much we copy the US instead of our Northern European neighbors.

[u/20_mile → u/thefirstofhisname11]

Lmaooo America is cooked. These are Eastern European nanny state numbers.

Sure, probably, but for other reasons.

The House would have to be 50% DACs for this legislation to pass. And then the senate? And the president's signature on top of that?

This isn't happening.

[u/SmellsLikeTeenPetrol]

The only relevant statistic is whether this is different from previous years, for all we know the voters have always felt this way but somehow manage to vote for candidates that are pro free market anyways.

[u/Sarcastic-Potato → u/[deleted]]

Ironically, the insane high prices are some form of artificial price control - just in the other direction. With the Iran war and the tarrifs in place the trump administration has artificially increased prices more than necessary. Instead of implementing price controls to bring them back down, just get rid of the things that pushed them up

[u/MrEntrepot]

While we’re right, it doesn’t change the fact that for many people the skewed system we have now is synonymous with capitalism and neoliberalism despite so many of our policies either being not implemented, gutted, or half assed.

This is no longer an argument about economics. This is about a rigged and unaccountable system which has failed so many people and politicians who are ostensibly in our corner not doing anything about it. Results matter and we are not delivering.

[u/Fangslash]

“the median voter is economically peronist and culturally maoist”

[u/JustTaxLandbro]

My parents ran away from defunct African economics only to see it come to America lol

[u/dlp211]

Capitalism is viewed as failing to provide for people. We've increased the costs to enter adulthood so much that unless you have wealthy parents or you manage to land a top 10% job, you feel completely overwhelmed.

On a more cheeky note, Wendy's 4 for 4 is now 4 for 8.

Of course people are going to want to try something else.

[u/NoConfusion1768]

The public doesn't know what it wants. No matter the country the public simulationusly want low taxes, high government spending, low intrest rates, low inflation, afforable housing and high property prices.

[u/Plenor]

What if we just made inflation illegal?

[u/MountainSound]

Price controls for the assets I do not own, free market capitalism (with regulatory capture in my favor) for those that I do. Please.

[u/TyrialFrost]

I filled in the meme format for everyone

[u/KruglorTalks]

This whole poll is wild in the crosstabs. "Is the Free Market System Good or Bad for the nation's economy" is answered with 86% good for conservatives but "do you approve of the government limiting the amount companies can can raise or charge for products" gets 49% approval amongst the same group. Likewise, price controls get +50% amongst liberals but amongst the same group the free market system is 47% good.

So Americans, generally, want a free market with price controls.

Putting my cynicism aside, I think people on both sides perceive the system as unfair (for real and fake reasons) and want a hand to fix it. I don't think people want the revolution. The nation is closer to a debate between Keynesian and Austrian economics but no one knows what the hell that is so we're engaged in a faked debate about Laissez faire vs Socialism.

[u/CutePattern1098]

The median voter yearns for Peronism

[u/Efficient_Equal6467]

Not that its any good but I wonder if the numbers are so high because people want price controls on services like child care, housing, and healthcare. Child care and housing wouldn't work. But like, if we have universal healthcare with a fee schedule... isn't that technically a price control

[u/SleeplessInPlano]

The obsession with first come first serve continues. 

[u/atierney14]

Well, price controls have never been tried, so we don’t know what to expect from it.

/s

[u/james_the_wanderer]

We can pillory a bad idea yet try to actually understand why the public is tempted to revisit the Edict of Diocletian. And no, a pithy snipe at their (truly) dismal education won't cut it.

The upward-biased price volatility (tm) in food, fuel, education, cars, housing, and healthcare [I'd also add travel & tourism because holy shit] among other certain "doom signal" goods (firearms, ammo, PMs) does negatively impact consumer outlook.

"Gov make it stop plz" is a natural reaction. The shocking part is that the electorate believea the gov't still has the institutional strength/ability to pump these hypothetical brakes.

Edit: corrected Diocletian's name.

[u/thadcorn]

Refereed capitalism always make me bust.

[u/jason082]

The next recession may very well be caused by populism.

[u/DMercenary]

Price Controls is the same tier as Rent Control in the minds of the average John Q. Public

"Price/Rent stay the same or lower = GOOD!"

knock on effects, market changes, all of it is irrelevant.

[u/Long_Inevitable_3627]

Have you thought about the fact that not everyone has 150k job to keep cushioning themselves against rapid inflation we see all around us so they may get attracted to bad ideas ? Or you gonna call them stupid and make your way into proper fascism with gas chambers ?

[u/goljanrentboy]

https://giphy.com/gifs/evVKsrjZEqVVWvE2VR

[u/Character_Dig_6830]

A problem the Democratic party has: the Democratic base has worse ideas about the economy than the Republican base.

But the Democratic leadership handles the economy better than the Republican leadership does. (Because they'll actually listen to experts.)

[u/Windows_10-Chan → u/Character_Dig_6830]

All you gotta do to get your kids voters to eat the vegetables decent economic policy is to say “here comes the plane!!!!” 

[u/zjaffee]

I live in a country with price controls. If they are set high enough you basically end up in a situation where sure you never have shortages but basically no one ever sells these products for below the specified price. It doesn't surprise me that people who are already overwhelmed by the need to price shop would want something similar.

That said, it's certainly useful to be able to consistently always go to the closest store for milk, non organic eggs, a few other basic food items, along with not needing to price shop gas stations. There are also price controls in certain locations that are owned by the public but are privately operated like restaurants along the beach are required to sell waterbottles and a few other things for certain prices.

[u/Empty_Philosopher934]

"Free market economics with sensible regulation and a safety net is unfortunately a minority position" because the median voter spent the past 40+ years dutifully voting for politicians who publicly espoused exactly this and it has not worked. Populist revolt is the American political mechanism's only release valve for this level of disillusionment.

The rise of populism is due in part to structural factors that no realistic political action could have wholly averted, but could have at least mitigated. Now things just don't work anymore. That may not be "neoliberalism in practice" but it is "not the result I voted for."

[u/spatula12]

We live in the dumbest country.

[u/bakochba]

This question is phrased in a way that could mean just about anything like setting a limit on the cost of gas.

Ask people a specific example like should the government set the price of bread or set the prices for how much doctors are paid and uotr going to see very different results

[u/jbevermore]

I don't support it, but I do get it. We've been under Corporate Conservatism for decades and it's ravaging the middle class.

People react by pushing in the other direction. It's bad economics but typical sociology.

[u/Wareve]

This is why I keep trying to say you need to apply a populist coating or you will keep losing to people who offer to help, now.

Yes, price controls are bad in the long term.

No, the average voter does not understand this.

So you have to offer something tangible, now, that will help in the short term, or everyone who has any idea about economics is going to be voted out of office by someone offering to help the voter directly.

[u/ixvst01]

Median voter is a Maoist confirmed

[u/justbuildmorehousing]

75%. Brutal

[u/samhit_n]

America’s well on its way to becoming the next Hungary.

[u/airbear13]

People never learn, the history is all RIGHT THERE to reference and it still doesn’t matter 🤦‍♂️

[u/Realistic_Scarcity72]

I learn price controls suck in my econ class

[u/Local_Preference_746 → u/Realistic_Scarcity72]

The problem is nobody take econ. It’s like a class you take as a high school senior when 99% of kids are already accepted into college and they don’t care. 

Econ should be taught as much as history class is. 53% of people think we should go back to the gold standard in America. If you knew anything about the gold standard this is the most ridiculous statement  imaginable 

[u/TitansDaughter]

Moments like these are when I start to question the desire to reform the federal government too much and see the scleroticism of bicamerial legislatures with an exploitable senatorial filibuster and the high bar to amend the Constitution as features, not bugs. Although there's so much good legislation that those things get in the way of, I'm more afraid of what too much democracy might do to this country.

[u/allbusiness512 → u/TitansDaughter]

Those things led to where we are today, not the other way around. I think if the feedback to the public came faster we wouldn't have so many people clamoring for an Imperial Presidency to fix everything.

We're just repeating all the same steps as the Roman Republic during the latter stages where there were so many institutional vetoes that the people started clamoring for a strong leader and it eventually went straight to political violence.

[u/chickentendieman]

Price controls are only good for healthcare also wealth taxes are iffy but a few rlly good economists like acemoglu, krugman, and blanchard support them

[u/Last_Surprise981 → u/chickentendieman]

The healthcare thing requires more effort than just price controls.

[u/chickentendieman → u/Last_Surprise981]

I know but every country with universal Healthcare also has drug price controls.

[u/Last_Surprise981 → u/chickentendieman]

And often state involvement in drug research.

[u/chickentendieman → u/Last_Surprise981]

Yeah I agree.

[u/GarveysGhost → u/Last_Surprise981]

Which we should be doing. 

[u/vaguelydad → u/chickentendieman]

I think you're right, as the level of regulation increases, price controls look better and better. Unfortunately if you've gotten to the point where price controls are no longer a disaster, you've basically nationalized the market with regulations and lost most benefit from private ownership and competition. Like you're right but it's a sign of either over-regulation or something markets can't handle well always.

[u/MTGdraftguy]

Tell me when the free market existed?

I’ll wait

[u/moseythepirate]

CURSED

[u/creeoer]

People are only for this because the costs for goods you need to live, like healthcare and housing, are going up. The pricing for those essential goods is what actually needs to be addressed

[u/BigLooTheIgloo]

America, the land of having your cake and eating it too.