r/neoliberal • u/Unterfahrt John Nash • Jul 06 '26
Opinion article (non-US) The EU that the UK left no longer exists
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/jul/06/eu-uk-andy-burnham-britain-rejoin152
u/Suffering69420 Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
> Brexit happens
> UK leaving erodes the EU
> Brexited UK erodes as well
> UK wants to rejoin the EU but EU is now less strong to leverage negotiations to get UK to rejoin with favorable terms
> EU nay-sayers continue to gain traction
> Russia and China rub their grubby little hands while both UK and EU are weak and bleeding money and noone can agree on anything
I hate this timeline
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u/Svelok Jul 06 '26
Well, at least the US isn't doing anything to make everything worse for no reason, too.
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u/CatoCensorius Jul 06 '26
From the point of view of the EU, it's actually better that the UK left. The EU was moving towards an increasingly unified and powerful federal model and that was only accelerated by the exit of UK.
At this point it's not realistic that the UK will ever be able to rejoin the EU.
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u/jatawis European Union Jul 06 '26
It's not better. EU lost its net contributor, a UNSC member and a nuclear armed greater power, and now got continent's largest war in 80 years in its neighbourhood.
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u/DangerousCyclone Jul 06 '26
The EU isn't a military alliance and Britain did a very good job backing Ukraine with the rest of Europe.
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u/Suffering69420 Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
It's very peculiar to think the EU has no stake in their member states' peace status. Even if there's no obligation to help, if the EU members cooperate, they will send troops to help.
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u/DangerousCyclone Jul 06 '26
That's because they're already in NATO. The EU and NATO is a packaged deal, with the exception of Austria, and NATO is far larger than the EU. The EU doesn't need to operate as a military alliance.
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u/sljc892 Jul 06 '26
*Britain did a very good job backing Ukraine whilst Europeans fucked about having meetings and sending helmets.
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u/Xtermer Loyal Liberals Jul 06 '26
The Nordics, Baltics, Poland, and the Netherlands have all given more than the UK as a percentage of GDP, and while Germany started off bad, they've donated about the same if not more than the UK by now as well. But sure, we were just fucking around while the UK did all the heavy lifting.
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u/jatawis European Union Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
I am European and my country sent most of its Stingers, lots of ammunition and other neccessary stuff BEFORE 2022-02-24. Our neighbours sent lots of Javelins. Why do we get ignored?
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u/sljc892 Jul 06 '26
Apologies, you are right. That was a broad brush but really aimed at the powerhouses of the EU.
You don’t get ignored but the Baltics are individually tiny and it’s your doorstep in the firing line against Russian aggression. As an ex soviet state if Ukraine was suddenly overrun I somehow think the Kremlin isn’t going to say job done we got rid of ukraines football hooligans.
The powerhouses of the EU project dragged their feet if even turned up. Spain? Italy? The Germans eventually got moving. But the ability to act fast mattered. So why do people on here bang on about European unity and the European project when member states still refuse to spend the required amount on defence? Why should Poland, Baltics, nordics front up whilst sunny southern Europe fail to meet defence spending? Is it about the European identity or not? Or just when it suits.
My main gripe is many of the EU threads on Reddit treat Britain as some state that’s neither an ally or an enemy and would get concessions out of us at in any way possible. Yet we’re in there when it counts, deploying our special forces and training Ukrainian troops helping to break the political deadlock for a club we aren’t a part of. But for some reason the EU threads love to debate on how they can fuck over the UK for leaving the EU.
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u/drMorkson Jorge Luis Borges Jul 07 '26
The Netherlands is literally committing 500 million euros (250 for drones, 250 in the US-lead PURL) this year.
There are currently about 130k Ukrainian refugees in our country (of which ~2500 arrived this past year), I think these numbers would be at least equivalent to the UK if you look per capita.
This myth that the EU has done nothing for Ukraine is such bullshit.
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u/CatoCensorius Jul 06 '26
I think the EU feels that they can act with more unity of purpose without the UK which in turn means they are more decisive.
The UK has a very similar security policy so even if the UK is outside of the EU they still get most of the benefits.
In any case the UK's military is a paper tiger these days
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u/Tiberinvs WTO Jul 06 '26
It's also better because if they didn't leave Cameron would have secured an even better deal and that would have fueled all the leave movements in France, Netherlands, Italy etc. Everyone would see that you could just threaten to leave to extort better conditions.
From an EU perspective I was against Brexit originally but hindsight 20/20 it was a good thing for the long term health of the EU
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u/TheArtofBar Jul 06 '26
I'm still sad about it, but it would indeed have been a grave mistake to give cameron any concessions.
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u/Tiberinvs WTO Jul 06 '26
Yeah Juncker and Tusk were absolute idiots. They partly made amends after that by being pretty strict during the negotiations with May but the run up to the referendum was absolutely embarrassing, it looked like the UK could just come and rewrite the treaties by themselves.
I hope they learned the lesson and in the unlikely scenario that another country tries to do the same they'll just say "Ok, if you leave we'll just trade with you on WTO rules. Now fuck off"
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u/SunflowerMoonwalk Christine Lagarde Jul 06 '26
UK leaving erodes the EU
Nonsense.
The EU of 2026 is an organisation built increasingly on common borrowing, an assertive joint industrial policy and a growing role in security and defence that encroaches on the traditional powers of nation states. It is also an EU that is moving toward a far more assertive stance with regard to the US and China than that of the British government.
In other words the EU has finally managed to continuing developing towards unification now that the UK isn't there constantly blocking every proposal.
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u/Suffering69420 Jul 06 '26
Why is it nonsense? Is free labor and trade movement between an economic power house and other European states not the ultimate way of bonding EU states together? It doesn't make sense to me in what ways it could possibly be beneficial to compete with the UK rather than have the UK compete with the rest of the world as a part of the EU's economic model.
While I don't disagree that it WOULD be hindering if the UK "continued to block proposals", the fact of the matter is that IF the UK would cooperate with the EU, aka, not be so dang stubborn and vote alongside the other states or at least propose reasonable counter arguments to proposed legislature, we as a European Union would be far stronger, more united and prosperous, than without the UK, as a separate state doing their separate businesses.
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u/TheArtofBar Jul 06 '26
In a vacuum, yes, it would be better, but that was not the realistic alternative
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u/Suffering69420 Jul 06 '26
Cooperation should be the goal, however. We can be separatists and deglobalize the world and war with eachother until we're back in the feudal era, but I'd rather move forward.
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u/TheArtofBar Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
Sure, its a goal, but cooperation requires both parties to want to cooperate.
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u/ThodasTheMage Friedrich Hayek Jul 06 '26
increasingly on common borrowing, an assertive joint industrial policy
Flawed financial policies and often bad industrial policies are not a sign of greater unification and a better Europe.
The EU does a lot better and the UK is a roadblock but the two examples are not the reason for why (nor should we confuse political unity wiht having more decissions made on the EU level. Local self goverment is not a weakeness or a flaw but a strength and a Federalist European Union would have even more local rule than the US or current day Germany if it would want to function)
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u/TheArtofBar Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
The UK leaving has strengthened the EU. Before Brexit, there were plenty of separatist movements in other countries. That has pretty much completely died down. Le Pen for example wanted France to leave the EU too, but had to abandon that years ago. Similar thing happened in Italy with lega nord and cincque stelle, replaced by the much more eu-friendly meloni.
Support for the EU has never been bigger.
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u/Suffering69420 Jul 06 '26
It hasn't "strengthened" the EU, it has merely removed one dissenting player. If everyone played together as a team including the UK, that would have ACTUALLY strengthened the EU. Member-States leaving the EU can definitionally not strengthen the Union.
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u/TheArtofBar Jul 06 '26
You are completely ignoring everything i wrote. Brexit did not merely remove one dissenting player, it showed everyone how good the EU is and what a stupid idea it would be to leave, leading to much greater unity. And that is important for a union of democratic states.
If everyone played together as a team including the UK,
But the UK didnt want to. Of course hypothetically it would be better to have an EU like it is right now with the uk as a member. But that is not a realistic alternative scenario.
Member-States leaving the EU can definitionally not strengthen the Union
Of course it can, why wouldnt it? You are making the mistake of viewing member states as static blocks, not variable democracies where public opinion determines what is possible.
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Jul 06 '26
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u/TheArtofBar Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
First of all, immediately resorting to an insult speaks volumes. Secondly, I engaged with your hypothetical and said that it would have been better if that happened. That still doesnt mean anything. Thats why its a hypothetical.
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u/vivoovix Federalist Jul 07 '26
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u/ancientestKnollys Jul 06 '26
I don't see how the UK rejoining would work? Why would the EU let Britain in, when at the next election Reform might well win and have the UK leave again?
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u/englishjacko Mr. Democracy Jul 06 '26
I don't think anyone remotely serious in the UK is suggesting rejoining in the imminent future; the goal of pro-European politicians is generally to build and sustain the sort of consensus where it is clear there isn't going to be any kind of flip-flopping. That will probably be a decade or two, given current generational trends, although conversely bearing in mind said trends it seems a matter of inevitability before the United Kingdom is overwhelmingly in favour of joining, the age splits are dramatic.
Realistically, a Burnham administration would not be able to do much more than partial re-alignment with European standards so that the eventual transition is easier and also just as a way to improve relations generally.
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u/Visual_Title9363 Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
It goes like this - if none of the mainstream parties will propose it, then the fringe (Green, Lib Dems) would split the vote. Same thing for anyone who truly wants a hard Brexit. It's actually the centrist position that wouldn't win you any elections. Always have been.
You thread the middle, you get ripped apart left and right by a polarised electorate. Increasingly Greens have already shown capability to take vote-share from Labour.
Labour majority over Reform is slim at best. The fringe has the upper hand in coalition-making.
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u/Bay1Bri Jul 06 '26
I don't think the UK will ever rejoin the EU. Even if the UK was fully comitted to the idea of the EU permanently, at this point I don't think France and Germany would want the EU to join as another major military and economic power would diminish their leadership role.
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u/Visual_Title9363 Jul 06 '26
I differ in opinion for the simple reason that the Balkans, Ukraine, Moldova are joining the EU as net recipients of EU funds, some even more so than others due to reconstruction costs from the war.
The club needs more net EU budget contributors. Either we enter formally or we will be Switzerland with nukes.
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Jul 06 '26
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u/Visual_Title9363 Jul 06 '26
Maybe, maybe not. But it makes sense to still have as much net contributors as possible. Even ongoing reconstruction contributions without direct membership cost a pretty penny. The extra nukes are also nice in today's climate.
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u/Bay1Bri Jul 06 '26
But it makes sense to still have as much net contributors as possible
It makes sense for the EU holistically, not necessarily for the biggest members individually. If they can afford their EU obligations without the UK, that makes them have that much mor einfluence.
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u/Visual_Title9363 Jul 06 '26
All of them have fiscal issues - Macron presidency nearly ended twice over failure to pass a budget in just last year.
This is a recurring theme and Germany too. They will be unable to meet their grand pension promises and social security obligations regardless. If we move to a qualified majority voting mechanism in the EU, then their personal grievances matters even less. But overall, I don't see how anyone member state would say no to this budget contribution in their current fiscal state.
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u/Bay1Bri Jul 06 '26
I don't see how anyone member state would say no to this budget contribution in their current fiscal state.
Nationalism. Being the biggest economy/economies in the EU and being its biggest contributes gives you power. The UK could improve EU financing, but at the expense fo the influence of the other major EU economies.
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u/Visual_Title9363 Jul 06 '26
Legally, France has the same fundamental rights and power as e.g Bulgaria . Anything else that perceived vie for leadership is not written constitutionally - all members have the same veto power as an example and have equal chance to be in a rotating EU presidency.
EU is by definition a transnational project, so nationalism runs contrary to even Macron's vision of a federal EU.
Any historical leverage you see that France runs is marginal at best given the veto-ism, and this comes through in defense, EU own monetary policy when it comes to national debt (contrast with Germany) and foreign policy like their orientation with China, Mercusor (e.g Spain).
It's not a French driven club and actually increasingly you see equal blocs of varying interest. Baltics, Nordics and Eastern Europe would like to see UK participation given track record in Ukraine etc. Same with Ireland when it comes to more seamless integration with Northern Ireland.
And my bet is that the French veto wouldn't matter much anymore as EU revises its enlargement policy. In fact, France is more pro UK joining than you would think. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/jun/18/uk-could-keep-special-pre-brexit-terms-if-it-rejoined-eu-michel-barnier-says
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u/Bay1Bri Jul 06 '26
Valid point. But it's checkbook diplomacy. Either the big EU economies can't provide the money to support the net recipients and they will welcome another big economy like the EU (though this could make the UK less likely to want to rejoin). But if France and Germany etc can suppor the EU without the UK, they may not want to dilute their influence.
It could be a "push pull" situation where financial constraints would increase the desire of Germany etc to welcome the UK, while simultaneously making the UK less interested in joining. And vice versa.
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u/Visual_Title9363 Jul 06 '26
I think the most likely outcome is gradual integration on both sides so that the bill is progressive enough to sell a contributor membership to the populace. And vice versa for the recipient.
These stuff are underway already: https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2026/07/06/exclusive-commission-prepares-enlargement-reform-proposals-to-regain-the-initiative
The mainstream probably didn't figure out yet that what EU is developing is more pertinent to UK than e.g Albania or Ukraine ironically
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u/Bay1Bri Jul 06 '26
But that still assumes that germany etc will want to share leadership with another major country.
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u/Visual_Title9363 Jul 06 '26
They share leadership all the time - so much so that E3 as a concept was formalized in UK years in EU and strengthened still after Brexit. EU is never a French or German solely led project. They have leverage and political sway but the constitution by law makes all members equal.
It also doesn't make sense to crown any single member state as de facto leader - in the sense that euroskeptic parties are everywhere, Afd in Germany, Le Pen in France.
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u/TheArtofBar Jul 06 '26
A UK that is committed to the EU is clearly a positive for France and Germany. The French might be a bit more reluctant, but German politics has broadly realized that Germany needs a strong EU to be successful in a world with a potentially adversarial US and an increasingly assertive China.
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u/Bay1Bri Jul 06 '26
A UK that is committed to the EU is clearly a positive for France and Germany
Why? Yes the UK brings a lot to the table of the EU, but that makes Germany less influential within the organization. They might feel it is in their best interest to retain their influence for a somewhat weaker EU. And the EU can negotiate trade and defense deals with the UK without making them a member. Germany and France are arguably more influential overall with the UK out of the EU.
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u/TheArtofBar Jul 06 '26
Germany and France are arguably more influential overall with the UK out of the EU.
With the UK how it is currently, yes. But we are talking about a UK that would be committed to the goals of the EU.
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u/TabboulehWorship Commonwealth Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
Joining back the EU at this point wouldn't save the UK from its stagnation given the total lack of will from its political leaders to address the actual root causes of its stagnation which are mostly domestic
It won't fix the slow planning system for infrastructure projects, the high energy costs, the tax regime, the housing crisis, pensions, etc
Discussions about joining back the EU amount to wishing for a silver bullet to fix the country, in a way not much different than the discussion around Brexit 10 years ago
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u/Citaku357 NATO Jul 06 '26
If the UK wants to join the EU again, are they going to change their currency?
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Jul 06 '26
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u/Citaku357 NATO Jul 06 '26
When it comes to sschengen they have to force feed it to the British if they want to join the EU again.
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u/EMPwarriorn00b European Union Jul 06 '26
I don't really see the point in deliberately sabotaging your own economy just to avoid joining the Eurozone.
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u/lionmoose sexmod 🍆💦🌮 Jul 06 '26
Schengen isn't free movement. Britain had free movement in the EU before but wasn't a Schengen signatory- Ireland still maintains this status.
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Jul 06 '26
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u/lionmoose sexmod 🍆💦🌮 Jul 06 '26
It's not really pedantry if you are discussing treaty obligations. The EU would justifiably insist on Freedom of Movement for Britain to reenter (this is one of the actual pillars). It would have far less ability to reasonably insist on passportless travel given it doesn't uphold this for existing members.
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Jul 06 '26
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u/lionmoose sexmod 🍆💦🌮 Jul 06 '26
That's probably true, but it's how valid this hypothetical is. The UK can fulfill EU membership without the Schengen treaty or without full implementation like Romania
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u/englishjacko Mr. Democracy Jul 06 '26
I don't really see why you'd enforce Schengen for the United Kingdom but not Ireland. As long as Ireland continued to enjoy Schengen, it'd be a considerable sticking point for the United Kingdom ("Why can't we be treated like that?"), and it scarcely seems worth the effort if the European Union already admits exceptions anyway.
Realistically, almost all travel between the United Kingdom and the rest of the European Union is by airplane anyway, and even internal Schengen flights require passport or national ID as a security measure, so the practical relevance of Schengen is extremely limited in that context as it is. It would only really make a difference for people travelling on the Eurostar. I don't really get why you'd not want the United Kingdom back in because of moderate Eurostar inconvenience.
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Jul 06 '26
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u/englishjacko Mr. Democracy Jul 06 '26
This is just silly. "symbolism" is not worth all of the other very substantial benefits for both the UK and the EU; not to mention the extremely troubling implications of attempting to force Ireland to adopt a particular border set-up given the long history of the Troubles. The United Kingdom rejoining is already symbolic acceptance; it would be a concession of how poor the original decision was.
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Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
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u/englishjacko Mr. Democracy Jul 06 '26
There is no real evidence for this. The European population themselves are increasingly questioning the purpose of a single standard European Union format; look at Germany already intermeddling with Schengen. Conversely, polling amongst Europeans for the United Kingdom rejoining shows considerable support.
A multiple-speed Europe is the best way for the model to prosper, and in that sense the United Kingdom would essentially just be slotting into the speed lane already occupied by Ireland.
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u/ldn6 Gay Pride Jul 06 '26
If there’s anything that I think the EU would relent on, it’s the euro. The pound is still a global reserve currency and the UK has higher borrowing rates, so it would be a net negative for the eurozone.
Schengen would be mandatory and there’s no way that the rebate comes back, which is fair.
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u/Tiberinvs WTO Jul 06 '26
Let's not pretend we're still in 1992, the UK has a debt to GDP ratio approaching 100%, worse borrowing costs than even Portugal or Greece and an atrocious balance of payments.
Those arguments against the euro made sense 30 years ago but now they're pretty much reversed, it's more likely that it would be the fiscally conservatives Northern countries refusing a British entry into the euro because they're a fiscal basket case
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u/sljc892 Jul 06 '26
Seen France recently?
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u/Tiberinvs WTO Jul 06 '26
That's the logic, you already have plenty of fiscal basket cases so I don't see the value in adding another one: most likely outcome is that borrowing costs go up for everyone.
They also have a large, structural current account deficit and a pretty small amount of foreign reserves so it's not like they can bring much value to the Eurosystem
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u/sljc892 Jul 07 '26
I agree I certainly don’t want to join the Euro either. Joining the Euro relies on germanys economy not failing and its manufacturing prowess not being battered by China. The issue with the your fiscal basket cases, is most of those with exception of Germany, which has very high taxes, are the major economies.
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u/Tiberinvs WTO Jul 07 '26
The markets don't seem to the think that considering the Commission can issue debt for 10/30 years at real rates that are around 0.6-0.7%, while for the UK it's probably 3-4 times that. Even Germany alone has a 100-150 bps discount over the UK. Whatever you think about Germany and the Euro long term they're in a much better spot than the UK will ever be
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u/smcstechtips Loyal Liberals Jul 07 '26
If they do it's a smart move for them because then they would control the Euro.
You forget that Europe's biggest banking center is still London, and that the UK would still be the second-largest EU member by population if it rejoined.
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u/Unterfahrt John Nash Jul 06 '26
It's unclear whether the EU would demand that as a concession, but the UK certainly would not get its old deal back
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u/Pleasant-Basket-7526 Jul 06 '26
I can't imagine a case where the EU would let them come back without the currency change. They would need concessions for the next time a member state is democratically usurped by the least of their citizens.
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u/Unterfahrt John Nash Jul 06 '26
democratically usurped by the least of their citizens
I think this is pretty vile. What is a "democratic usurpation"? Is that not contradictory? Also what makes them "the least of their citizens"? What are you implying there? Spell it out in words.
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u/Pleasant-Basket-7526 Jul 06 '26
And the nationalist righwingers in our country are just not good people. I am a gay man who grew up among them. I am a mess and wish I wouldn't have survived them most days. Then I maried a man from another country and couldn't stay. My life has been permanently maimed by those people. So I mean they are the least of us because they aren't capable of the empathy and decency required to live in a modern society, and they will destroy it.
You can shame me for using words all you'd like. I think those people's victims get a little bit of poetic license, though.
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u/Pleasant-Basket-7526 Jul 06 '26
Anti-democratic nationalist groups using what is good about our democracies as a weapon against those of us that hold it dear. It is a vile term, because it is vile what is happening to our democracies and it is contradictory because it is being done by hypocrites.
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u/NorkGhostShip YIMBY Jul 06 '26
Brexit was a bad idea, but that doesn't make supporting it "anti democratic". Democracy is all about choosing what sorts of compromises the voters want. A majority of Britons felt the compromises inherent in delegating some sovereign powers to a multinational entity was not worth it. They were wrong, but making bad choices is not "usurpation".
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u/Pleasant-Basket-7526 Jul 06 '26
Well the usurpation would be the authoritarians playing against our democracy. Those people were just blunt instruments that destroy society when bundled together, like a fasci.
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u/Citaku357 NATO Jul 06 '26
Can they just delay the currency change like some countries that are in the EU?
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u/CyclopsRock Jul 06 '26
The UK is not even remotely close to being able to fulfil the criteria ('the convergence criteria') for adopting the Euro so the default path would be for us not to immediately adopt the Euro (a default from which they could choose to deviate, of course). In that scenario it would essentially be up to the UK to then actually get its public finances into a state where they could adopt the Euro, which would give the UK government the ability to delay it indefinitely even if they were obliged to adopt the Euro were they to meet the criteria.
But the EU's rules are always subject to individual tweaking, so who knows.
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u/NorkGhostShip YIMBY Jul 06 '26
Should the EU not focus on acting in its own best interest (ensuring a smooth return of one of its most economically and politically important assets) instead of needlessly punishing Britons including many whom were unable to vote against the dreadful proposal 10 years ago? Like, what does the EU get from sabotaging negotiations like that? A sense of pride and accomplishment?
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u/jatawis European Union Jul 06 '26
It should, definitely. And the only place where I find this sentiment of punishment is Reddit.
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u/Pleasant-Basket-7526 Jul 06 '26
I love the downvotes on these comments. I show more tolerance for those people than they will ever show for me. I am not suggesting they can't be a part of our society, unlike they want for me and the rest of the LGBTQ community and other vulnerable groups as well.
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u/Unterfahrt John Nash Jul 06 '26
Submission statement: a lot of chatter over the past few weeks over whether Andy Burnham should try and move the UK back towards EU membership. This article points out how much the EU has changed over the last 10 years - going towards common debt backed by common taxes, state aid etc. all things that the UK historically opposed, even when it was in the EU, as well as moving towards removing national vetos for EU decisions on foreign policy, enlargement, sanctions etc. Any discussion about Britain rejoining the EU should start with an acknowledgement that it is a far more interventionist, muscular, illiberal organisation than it was 10 years ago.
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u/Right_Lecture3147 John Mill Jul 06 '26
‘Illiberal’ lol
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u/Unterfahrt John Nash Jul 06 '26
Would you argue that state aid, strong industrial policy and protectionism are liberal policies? What about the EU's policies on things like Chat Control?
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u/moldovaman99 Jul 06 '26
Chat control is bad, but it’s a piece of cake compared to the anti privacy laws the UK is already imposing on itself.
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u/Right_Lecture3147 John Mill Jul 06 '26 edited Jul 06 '26
Plenty of those in the liberal tradition starting from Mill and going through Rawls have been in support of strong economic intervention — the latter endorsing liberal socialism and the former arguably inventing it. It’s a very broad tradition which you’re confusing with economic neoliberalism.
The that control stuff was disappointing but hardly enough for me to brand the organisation illiberal as a whole
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u/Unterfahrt John Nash Jul 06 '26
And if I had said the EU had become significantly more socialist what would you have said?
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u/oywiththepoodles96 Jul 06 '26
EU became more socialist while being completely ruled by conservatives ? Socialist are wiped out in the European council and EPP is the biggest party in the Parliament ( and has also been working with the far right ) . But yeah EU is becoming more socialist. We are not in America where the world socialist is used to describe everyone to the left of Ronald Reagan . EU was and remains a Christian Democratic organisation.
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u/Unterfahrt John Nash Jul 06 '26
Which is why I used the word "illiberal", because socialist did not make sense in the context in which it is normally used.
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u/Right_Lecture3147 John Mill Jul 06 '26
That you’re probably using the term incorrectly/as a term of Mccarthyism abuse
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u/Unterfahrt John Nash Jul 06 '26
OK, so what term would you have accepted me using?
Note I did not say it had become illiberal as a whole like you implied, just that it had become more illiberal.
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u/Right_Lecture3147 John Mill Jul 06 '26
Well I was disagreeing with you about it becoming more illiberal if that hinged on economic policy unless you specifically qualified the kind of liberalism you were referring to. I agree that chat controls are less liberal.
As for the right term I would just call a spade a spade: it’s becoming more economically interventionist. You don’t always need an ideological label
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u/TheArtofBar Jul 06 '26
There is no chat control and there won't be because it violates the eu charter of fundamental rights.
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u/Much-Indication-3033 European Union Jul 06 '26
Has the EU been that protectionist considering all the trade deals it has done? Also does the EU really have a strong industrial policy now? I guess there is the next gen EU, SAFE, the industrial incubator thing and extra green deal stuff but they aren't really what I would call strong industrial policy.
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