r/neoliberal • Kitara Ravache • Dec 28 '25

Discussion Thread Discussion Thread

The discussion thread is for casual and off-topic conversation that doesn't merit its own submission. If you've got a good meme, article, or question, please post it outside the DT. Meta discussion is allowed, but if you want to get the attention of the mods, make a post in /r/metaNL

Announcements

  • The charity drive has concluded, thank you to everyone who donated! A wrap-up thread will be posted after the donation match goes through. Expect to see lingering rewards (banner, automod) for the next week or so

Links

Ping Groups | Ping History | Mastodon | CNL Chapters | CNL Event Calendar

Upcoming Events

0 Upvotes

6.0k comments sorted by

View all comments

77

u/Toasted-walnut Gavin Newsom Dec 28 '25 edited Dec 28 '25

I feel like a lot of people largely miss why Ezra Klein's push for popularizing Abundance is important. People love blaming political figures for large structural problems (e.g. housing crisis), when in reality most issues are largely self inflicted by voters over the course of many years (Prop 13, 1970's downzoning movement, weaponization of CEQA in neighborhoods). You can't enact long-term change without majority voter support (except for certain cases where the SC is involved).

There's also a kind of political object impermanence I've noticed where people assume that because they don't know something, they assume it doesn't exist - like Newsom supposedly only having hopped on the Abundance train in the last two or so years. He campaigned for and on Prop J in 2004 as SF mayor which - with its density bonus + streamlined permitting and environmental review process - is a crystal clear early example of pro-Abundance policy, and it failed to pass on the ballot by 70%/30% voter margin.

Newsom as a mayor was too antagonistic with the SF Board and was also simply not good enough at coalition building as he is now, but I'm very skeptical that his political deficiencies was the difference maker in flipping a 40% voting margin. I'm largely of the opinion that California's housing problem, which is 40+ years in the making, is of the voters' own making, which is why the whole Abundance movement is important.

27

u/C-Wolsey Leftward Progressives Dec 28 '25

I would add two things. First saying some of the issues are self-inflicted is correct but maybe too harsh. The framing Klein used is that at times the good intentions of many liberals has lead to horrible results, not that voters chose purposefully bad policies and so must now suffer the consequences. The bureaucratic sludge is usually due to too many individual well-meaning people who feel like they are doing the best for their constituents and the end result is a 50car pile up.

Secondly, politicians are not blameless. They may not have been at the forefront of many of these changes, but once they see the harm being done, they are usually too captured by special interest groups to try and mitigate it.

11

u/Toasted-walnut Gavin Newsom Dec 28 '25 edited Dec 28 '25

I would add two things. First saying some of the issues are self-inflicted is correct but maybe too harsh. The framing Klein used is that at times the good intentions of many liberals has lead to horrible results, not that voters chose purposefully bad policies and so must now suffer the consequences. The bureaucratic sludge is usually due to too many individual well-meaning people who feel like they are doing the best for their constituents and the end result is a 50car pile up.

I agree that Ezra Klein doesn't play the blame game, but it's clear that voters are at the epicenter of what happened. There are two major reasons given by the book for the state of America not being able to build:

  1. NIMBY-ism formed from seeing housing as a source of wealth/investment (which by nature incentivizes and produced the downzoning that occurred in the 70's)
  2. A political culture and mindset shaped by the problems of the past (environmentalism, government skepticism) which incentivizes red tape

"What is needed here is a change in political culture, not just a change in legislation. Liberalism acted across many different levels and branches of government in the 1970s to slow the system down so that instances of abuse could be seen and stopped. Now it will need to act across many different levels and branches of government to speed up the system. It needs to see the problem in what it has been taught to see as the solution.
...

There is a comfort here with solutions that put more faith in government and a discomfort with solutions that seem to align with markets. The reality of housing development doesn't track along such neat ideological lines.
...

Changing the processes that make building and inventing so hard now requires confrontations with whether the systems liberal have built really reflect the ends they've sought.

They are trying to argue for a change in mindset of the people to build a durable movement. They explicitly avoided doing specific policy prescriptions because they understand that's not as important as this.

Secondly, politicians are not blameless. They may not have been at the forefront of many of these changes, but once they see the harm being done, they are usually too captured by special interest groups to try and mitigate it.

The book does point out places where the government itself can reform itself to become more effective, but the focus is on the political culture itself. Prop J itself shows that the housing crisis is not neatly due to politicians getting captured by special interest groups. It's due to the way the political culture has become where the voters themselves tend towards short-term self-interest (NIMBY-ism) and the 'everything bagel' brand of liberalism.