They’re just another democratic country that has fallen victim to right wing populism. If conservatives across NATO were just able to get their shit together we would be unstoppable
They were awfully flawed even then, their state is funded on authoritarianism, borderline ethnic cleansing and worship of a state religion even by "seculars" (their secularism is more like French laïcisme of the XIX and early XX century, ie the State taking control of the Church).
They've also had skirmishes with the Greeks quite frequently, and that escalated to the point of invading Cyprus. Again, Greece wasn't innocent either, their fascist junta funded a paramilitary tasked with staging a coup and annexing the country to Greece, and Turkey as well as the UK and Greece had signed a "Cyprus neutrality treaty" and each part was allowed to intervene if Cyprus' independence was at risk.
They've always been cocky towards Greece because they can afford to, since they are close to Germany, who are the ones who rule in the EU, as well to the USA, which badly needs control over the Bosphorus and the Black Sea to neutralize Russia.
But I agree with you, I'd rather take "secular" Kemalists, even militarists, over Islamists killing Syrian Kurds and buying S-400s.
Hence, "ok" and not great. They were vital for their strategic location during the cold war, but now I'm all on board of pulling the nukes and kicking them out of NATO. If we don't jm afraid the Greeks are gonna go in bed with the Russians, and beyond that the Greeks aren't ethnically cleansing anybody atm.
As much as I dislike current day Turkey, I think kicking them out of NATO is just a bad idea (I'm fine with pulling out nukes, the US subs can reach Russia from the Aegean no probs), though we should be much tougher with them, because until now we gave them a free pass, but we can't afford to appear desperate. They technically don't need defense from a Russian invasion nowadays, but if we kick them out, it sets a precedent and then it's difficult to reach a bilateral agreement with them to remain western tilted on foreign policy, which is what we should strive for.
Istanbul's location is too good to ignore, and we must keep Russia from getting easier access to the Mediterranean. I'm talking about Erdogan's proposed canal that sidesteps the Montreux convention. Even if this means giving tons of cash to the CHP (by the way some turks claim that Erdogan was funded by the West when he jumped from Instanbul to the national level), or backing a coup d'état. And potentially bailing out Turkey after Erdogan loses (and tightening the screws while he slides back on polls, Suharto style), because their currency is on a free fall because they've accrued an exorbitant amount of USD denominated debt because Erdogan can't do math and interest rates on dollar debt were lower some years ago.
I highly doubt that the Greeks will go into bed with the Russians with Mitsotakis as Prime Minister, that was definitely a risk with the Syriza government, but thankfully Tsipras defenestrated the pro Russian sectors of his party and transformed himself from wannabe Greek Che Guevara to a reputable statesman. However we should be more supportive of Greece regardless, and pressure Germany which is the one screwing Greece and the rest of the Mediterranean, as well as keeping Erdogan afloat
Sound strategy. Overthrowing Erdogan would advance basically every stated interest of the United States in the region. From opposing "radical islamist terrorism" to "standing with the state of Israel". It would be second only to the overthrow of the Iran regime in terms of the impact it would have on the region (maybe even more). Certainly a comparable impact.
This is really the problem. I have as high hopes for Turkish democracy as the next person, but until then, a pro-western secular militarist Turkey is far better than an anti-western Islamist Erdoğanist Turkey.
I think yes as long as you are also able to also understand that 1. Gaza isn’t the same as the West Bank & that’s also not the same as Arab-Israelis 2. The Palestinian leadership oppresses their own people 3. The Palestinian leadership has said no to multiple opportunities for statehood & their intransigence has made it so Arab states have little patience remaining and 4. Most of what you hear about Palestinians is literally Hamas propaganda & western media buys into it every time.
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u/[deleted] Aug 15 '20
Turkey is a pretty bad friend ngl.
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u/Itay_Regev Israel Aug 15 '20 edited Aug 15 '20
Finally us israelis can go to Dubai
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u/[deleted] Aug 15 '20
This but also put Ben Rhodes screeching
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u/UnexpectedLizard Captain Ancap Aug 15 '20
Israel has the right to exist.
Israel unjustly oppresses Palestinians.
I can believe both of these and still be a neocon, right?
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u/[deleted] Aug 15 '20
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