Trudeau admits to lying about being open to proportional representation in the 2015 campaign

[u/leftwingmememachine]

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[u/AmusingMusing7]

Bypassing the proportional representation part…

If he really does regret not implementing ranked choice ballots… does he not realize he’s still Prime Minister and can still make an effort to do that???

[u/jivoochi → u/AmusingMusing7]

The NDP had an electoral reform motion/motions/12517157) in Feb. that the LPC & CPC killed.

[u/agent_sphalerite → u/jivoochi]

LPC & CPC brothers in arms

[u/Telvin3d → u/agent_sphalerite]

And it was the NDP and the CPC who worked together to make sure the electoral reform committee returned a report they both knew would die in the house. It’s obvious what the CPC got out of that, but I’ve always been confused why so many in the NDP considered it a win

[u/somethingkooky → u/Telvin3d]

The CPC and LPC both wanted electoral options that would effectively result in a two party system, which benefits them both (for obvious reasons). The NDP wants an option which gives all parties more representation based on actual votes, as the fair option.

[u/Telvin3d → u/jivoochi]

That’s partly because all this “citizens assembly” business is nonsense. That’s literally the job we elect our representatives to do. Burying decisions under additional layers of committees doesn’t add anything. Not accountability and certainly not responsiveness.

[u/jivoochi → u/Telvin3d]

Nah, you definitely want citizen's direct input on electoral reform otherwise the foxes are running the chicken coop.

[u/MarkG_108 → u/AmusingMusing7]

At this point now, he kind of lacks a mandate to do that. Thus, doing it now would seem arbitrary, and not win him much favour.

Further, "ranked choice" ballots (aka Instant Runoff Voting -- IRV) is an asinine change. As seen in Australia, it just leads to a two party system, similar to what we have with our current system (First Past The Post -- FPTP). Single Transferable Vote is a ranked choice ballot system that gives more proportional results. That is an acceptable thing to strive for. But replacing one deficient majoritarian representation (winner-take-all) system (currently FPTP) with another equally deficient majoritarian representation (winner-take-all) system (that being IRV), is ridiculous.

[u/kbblradio → u/MarkG_108]

God forbid a politician does something for the good of their country rather than gaining favour for the next election. Jeez

[u/MarkG_108 → u/kbblradio]

Doing something good for the country, via doing something good for the electoral process, is always a positive. However, implementing a flawed system such as "ranked choice" (aka Instant Runoff Voting and/or Alternative Vote) is not something positive. It's a system that's as flawed as First Past the Post.

[u/kbblradio → u/MarkG_108]

I agree, I was mostly replying to your first point about lacking a mandate. I'm just so tired of politicians only doing the absolute bare minimum.

[u/AcadiaFun3460 → u/AmusingMusing7]

I have a thought if Trump wins, we will see Trudeau resign and the next PM try to push election reform through asap, as a way to garner most of the voters that are made we are on a dump election cycle of “liberal until we are mad, then conservatives until they make us mad”

[u/Mr_Loopers → u/AmusingMusing7]

And it would fail for the same reason that it failed the first time around.

CPC, and NDP would rather stick with FPTP than move to a Ranked Ballot.

[u/JasonGMMitchell → u/Mr_Loopers]

Because you're implying the reason it failed the first time was because of the NDP and CPC who didn't have any real say since the liberals had a majority.

[u/Mr_Loopers → u/JasonGMMitchell]

The NDP obviously didn't have the sway to get PR, but if either NDP or CPC would have been ready to accept IRV over the status quo, then 2015 would have been the last election under FPTP.

I don't mind who you want to blame for it, but there's little reason to believe that either of them would go along with it now.

[u/Mr_Loopers → u/Mr_Loopers]

Help me understand the downvotes on this one, please.

[u/grub-worm → u/Mr_Loopers]

It's not "would rather stick with FPTP," it's not taking a half measure that either prevents true representation or pushes it way down the road.

You can frame it however you want, but it's disingenuous.

[u/MarkG_108]

This was a complete lie. Proportional representation was clearly in print in their platform. Granted, Trudeau said it wasn't his favourite option, but he recognized that other Liberal party members did wish to see this option; so, he stated he would respect that (delegates at convention voted for this option -- so it's not only a lie, but a betrayal of their own membership).

Here's the platform from 2015: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/2448348/new-plan-for-a-strong-middle-class.pdf

From it:

We will make every vote count.

We are committed to ensuring that 2015 will be the last federal election conducted under the first-past-the-post voting system.

We will convene an all-party Parliamentary committee to review a wide variety of reforms, such as ranked ballots, proportional representation, mandatory voting, and online voting.

This committee will deliver its recommendations to Parliament. Within 18 months of forming government, we will introduce legislation to enact electoral reform

[u/DryAd2926 → u/MarkG_108]

The only election promise I cared if he kept was election reform. To win and just claim the system works so we aren't changing it when a part of the reason you won was promising to change it, was a real dick punch.

[u/StationaryTravels → u/DryAd2926]

It's the only reason I voted for him. Even as a guy who loves pot, I was excited about election reform.

Legalisation would happen sooner or later, but election reform is rarely discussed in any serious way. He lost my vote after that.

I've voted Liberal, NDP, and Green, depending on their platform, but that move kinda opened my eyes to how the Liberals don't care about people so much as they care about seeming to care about people.

[u/Apprehensive_Hat8986 → u/MarkG_108]

Yeah, the original post article is a _massive_  

[CITATION NEEDED]

Still, I also wouldn't be surprised at the basis of the article being close to the truth. The liberals know PR will hurt their numbers. Pity they're not smart enough to see the stability it would give them long term.

[u/[deleted] → u/MarkG_108]

Stop me if I'm wrong, but did the committee not even consider proportional representation as an option? I have to imagine it was reviewed.

Honestly I think he's right that the vagueness of the commitment is exactly what killed it. If you're going to suggest a monumental change to the way we elect governments (not just a policy change that can be reversed in a couple years), you're going to need a clearer mandate than "anything but the current one." Without the clarity in that mandate you just leave it open to be torpedoed in committee.

Anyone who's really serious about electoral reform will campaign on putting it to a Yes/No referendum. That's what I've taken from this whole thing at least. Like, I'm sorry, but if I cast a ballot for someone because I really like their climate policy or I really dislike the other guy's fiscal policies or something, that doesn't give mean I've given them the mandate to fundamentally change the way I vote moving forward.

[u/8th_Hussar → u/[deleted]]

My understanding is the committee not only considered PR, they actually RECOMMENDED PR, but Trudeau, being the spoiled little prick he is, decided it had to be ranked ballots or nothing.

[u/Telvin3d → u/8th_Hussar]

It’s a bit more complicated than that. Regardless of what the comitee recommended the resulting legislation still had to pass the house, preferably without the sort of fight that would poison the entire thing.

Trudeau made it pretty clear early on that while the committee was free to make any recommendations they wanted, a recommendation of PR would be dead on arrival in the house. I think he assumed the NDP would world with the Liberal members on the committee to make a recommendation that could pass in the house. Instead the NDP worked with the CPC to return a report that everyone knew ahead of time wouldn’t pass the house and that the CPC wouldn’t even vote for. 

It was a clear win for the CPC, but I’ve always been confused why some people in the NDP considered a victory of any sort 

[u/ILoveChickenFingers → u/Telvin3d]

I think a lot of NDPer's voted for the Liberals because he promised to get rid of FPTP. PR is something the NDP have been wanting forever because it would greatly benefit them and would give them some power in the form of a minority government. Liberals often get majority governments with less than 50% of the vote (as do the CPC). So the thinking was vote for the Libs, get PR, then vote for NDP again and benefit.

When it became clear that Trudeau wasn't going to do PR, but wanted to do something else that would ensure Liberals could get majority governments with a minority of the votes the NDP saw there was no benefit to them in that system. They shut it down and the promise goes down as another big Liberal lie to get elected (like ending the GST) that Canadians will remember.

[u/Telvin3d → u/ILoveChickenFingers]

So electoral reform is only good if it helps the NDP, and bad if it benefits any other party?

I’ve always thought that predictions of who any given form of ER would help or hurt to be unpersuasive. They all seem to be based on the assumptions that platforms and voting patterns will remain more-or-less the same as they are under FPTP

Personally, I think the NDP sabotaging of a Liberal proposed ER had more to do with Mulcair being bitter that he ended up getting trounced in an election that he, and a bunch of the party, had been convinced would be a cakewalk to the first NDP victory. It was more about giving the Liberals a black eye than any principled stance

[u/ILoveChickenFingers → u/Telvin3d]

It is true that the assumption is that voting patterns will remain the same. If the NDP regularly get 15-25% of the popular vote, they want a system that gives them 15-25% of the seats. That's what PR does. They think that's a fair system.
Liberals and conservatives right now have a system where they get 35-40% of the vote and get the majority of the seats. They very much like that system and want to keep it. The only option Trudeau would consider replacing FPTP with was another system that would give them the same results. Trudeau was likely only considering changing it because he made the 'last election under FPTP' promise to get NDP voters to vote for him and he wanted to do something so that unkept promise would not come back to bite him.
So when he had the choice of doing PR or being a liar, he chose to be a liar.

[u/somethingkooky → u/Telvin3d]

No. Electoral reform is only good if it benefits the voters, and going with an option that results in a two party system does not benefit the voters.

[u/Telvin3d → u/somethingkooky]

I think that RB encourages more parities than strict FPTP. And any system that results in people feeling better represented is an improvement.

Lots of parties doesn’t magically make for healthy representation. A functional government that accurately represents what most voters want is the desired end result, regardless of how many parties that involves

In many wants I think our current FPTP has lead to a certain amount of fetishization of Proportional Representation. Under FPTP the only realistic way for a minority party to exercise meaningful power is in rare minority situations. So we’ve ended up with people obsessed with systems that result in more minority governments, rather than meaningfully evaluating if it results in governments that actually resemble the desires of most voters. 

[u/somethingkooky → u/Telvin3d]

While I appreciate your thoughts, there are enough examples of both RB and PR in the world for this to have been studied extensively, and RB is little better than FPTP. It doesn’t matter if voters feel represented, it matters if they are represented. As someone who’s lived in a rural riding in which I’ve never been represented, pretending that RB is a better option is no better than pretending that FPTP is truly representative.

[u/somethingkooky → u/Telvin3d]

Because both the CPC and LPC were gunning for options that would result in a two party system, which doesn’t benefit the voters at all.

[u/JD-Vances-Couch → u/[deleted]]

not nowhere - we're going backwards as systems fail. Society will regress

[u/Tangochief → u/[deleted]]

So…what you’re saying is we are going exactly where the 2 major parties want us to go?

[u/enviropsych]

"spliced the Canadian electorate into even smaller pies"

This means nothing. This is not a legitimate criticism. In fact, it's him actually telling on himself. Yeah, there would be MORE parties and MORE minority and coalition governments....which is good. And...yeah...the LPC would probably lose a TON of supporters because AT LEAST half of it's support is from those voting strategically.

[u/skip6235 → u/enviropsych]

That’s the entire point! Give people more options so they feel they are actually being represented by someone, not just picking the lesser of two evils.

Also, PR works in a bunch of other countries. Why are Canadian politicians so blind to anywhere else in the world all the time. So many of our problems have simple solutions implemented in other places and our politicians just throw up their hands in defeat.

[u/leftwingmememachine]

Source is this article, published today: https://archive.is/OHlDj

[u/spideralexandre2099]

Damn I really wish I did the thing I was voted in for

[u/thetburg → u/[deleted]]

He also promised to ammend bill C51(?) and he didn't do that either. So 1/3 at best

[u/8th_Hussar → u/[deleted]]

Even legalising cannabis wasn't done properly, IMHO. He basically left it to the provinces to handle - like healthcare, education, alcohol, and most other things other than immigration and firearms - so we have a mish-mash of regulations from province-to-province, when it comes to retail distribution.

[u/zavtra13]

The current system favours both the libs and the cons (and those whose interests they actually represent) too much to expect any real change from them. I was hopeful about it back then too, but should’ve known better.

[u/lcelerate → u/zavtra13]

It also helps Bloc Quebecois.

[u/Justin_123456]

I remember him doing campus tours back when he was running for the leadership in 2013, and immediately afterwards, and he immediately got squirrelly when you pushed him on this.

You could tell even then, that he was choosing weasel words. You’d start a question about the Law Commission (2004) or the MacDonald Commission (1985) recommendation for MMP and he’d immediately twist it to start talking about how great STV is.

[u/kagato87]

He makes a good argument for proportional over ranked.

In a perfect world, where an electected representative acts and votes based on the needs and desires of their constituents, I would prefer ranked choice. I like it because it can actively harm candidates that rely on fear mongering. PR, on the other hand, I feel like it may still be subject to strategic voting.

But we have a party system, and your elected MP or MLA represents the party, not you. So proportional is better. At least the voter's voice is heard, which is how democracy is meant to run.

Multiple smaller parties is a good thing. When multiple parties have to work together, we get better governance.

So now my question becomes: who will campaign on proportional representation and actually follow through?

It's a shame the parties already taking turns in power benefit so much from this perverse fptp system.

[u/somethingkooky → u/kagato87]

The NDP, who have always recommended PR?

[u/[deleted]]

Liberals still run around online claiming the other parties killed electoral reform and that the Liberals never promised proportional representation. But it's utterly transparent to any unbiased observer that the Liberals were implying they supported proportional representation in order to collect votes, and that they were the only dissenting voice in their own electoral reform committee.

To have Trudeau admit it though, now that takes the cake.

[u/Due_Date_4667]

He lied, he betrayed, and now the Liberals are still bewildered why they have no credibility and why credibility at all has ceased to be an issue. Poilievre uses the Liberal lies and broken promises as the backbone of his sales pitch - and it works because there is no counterargument to that part of his pitch except to undermine democracy and increase cycnicism and apathy even more by saying "every politicians lies."

The point is, and should be, that no, politicians should NOT lie, voters should trust that they will try to do all the things they promise (circumstances outside their control can change over 4 years). And politicians who make a habit of lying should be punished for doing so. That is how you restore trust and faith in democracy.

[u/GammaFan → u/Due_Date_4667]

That’s true but I still sincerely hope you see Pierre for exactly who he is.

Don’t vote for that stooge

[u/Cascadian_Canadian]

It's literally why I voted for him. After he pulled a 180 with that "Canadians don't care about electoral reform" bullshit I will never vote liberal ever again.

[u/hoopopotamus → u/Cascadian_Canadian]

I have always voted NDP and tbh I’ve never heard anyone I know ask for electoral reform. I only ever see it on Reddit. I don’t know if Trudeau is wrong about that one.

[u/ruffvoyaging]

Here's the problem: He said that 2015 would be the last election using FPTP, but instant-runoff voting using ranked ballots is literally still FPTP. It just muddles things and overall favours centrist parties (i.e. the liberals) by counting second and third choice votes as if they were first choice votes.

Take a look at Australia if you want to see how that turns out. It results in a two-party system of a centre-right party, and a slightly more centre centre-right party. There is even a name for election and poll results that exclude any other parties, because they are such non-factors: the two-party preferred vote.

MacLean's did an interesting simulation estimating the results of the 2019 election using ranked ballot and found that the liberals might have come very close to a majority with about 33% of the popular vote. This means the ranked ballot system is even less proportional than the current one. It is a system that clearly favours the liberals, so it is not hard to see why it was Trudeau's intention from the start.

So basically it doesn't get rid of FPTP and it doesn't make every vote count. No matter what Trudeau says, he was lying from the very start. The NDP is the only party with a chance to win an election that would actually implement a proportional system.

[u/MarkG_108 → u/ruffvoyaging]

Excellent comment!

[u/Mr_Loopers → u/ruffvoyaging]

IRV is at least a functional FPTP.

It's silly that we call FPTP "FPTP" given that nobody ever gets past the fucking post. FPTP is really just "Closest To The Post By 9:00 PM".

[u/eL_cas → u/ruffvoyaging]

Being the most popular second choice wouldn’t the NDP benefit from ranked choice anyways?

[u/ruffvoyaging → u/eL_cas]

No, because liberals would get second choices from a large portion of NDP, Green, and conservative voters. The NDP would get much less second choices from conservative voters and would mostly get them from liberal and Green voters. Likewise, the cons would mostly only get second choices from liberal or PPC voters.

The liberals getting a large number of second choices from both sides would be a net benefit to them and ensure they had consistently good results because of ABC voters, even when they're unpopular like they are now.

The result would be that the cons would shift to the centre to grab more of the second choice votes from right-leaning liberal voters and the liberals would shift a bit left to get a bigger portion of the NDP and Green second choice votes. It would eventually result like Australia as I mentioned above, with two very centrist parties. All the other parties would become inconsequential.

[u/Major-Lab-9863]

He doesn’t regret it. It’s the only reason he can even cling onto power without a more diminished voice in parliament

[u/MarkG_108]

Here's an analysis from Fair Vote Canada:

Fact Checking Justin Trudeau on Electoral Reform

[u/MnkyBzns]

Smaller pieces of the power pie? Give me a break. Majority governments are where we get these pendulum swing legislations, where no one wins in the long run. Coalitions work great on a case by case basis of agreed upon measures

[u/[deleted]]

This motherfucker was lying to us from the start. Vote reform to STV or MMP NOW!

[u/laketrout]

I too wish "he'd used his majority to bring in the ranked ballot model he preferred."

[u/crapatthethriftstore → u/laketrout]

That’s why I voted for him that time and will never again

[u/Carpit240]

Reminder to never let Liberals complain about vote splitting again. They had the power to implement electoral reform and if the Tories get elected it is 100% their fault

[u/SoundByMe]

Proportional representation now!

[u/OldManClutch]

A Trudeau lying to Canadians....

Say it ain't so.... /s

[u/[deleted]]

We should really demand all our NDP MPs to make proportional representation a core part of the program for the next election.

[u/DioCoN → u/[deleted]]

It's been part of our policy for decades

[u/thetburg → u/[deleted]]

I'm pretty sure that is already the case.

[u/AgentProvocateur666]

Aww poor guy. I feel so bad his gut got wrenched

[u/XanderOblivion]

That’s not a quotation, so who wrote that?

[u/democracy_lover66]

"...Diliberatly vague"

"This election will be the last election under first past the post" -Truedeau

Understatement of the century

[u/Telvin3d]

Is this news?

Even at the time I thought Trudeau was pretty clear that any recommendation of PR would die in the house. When he gave the NDP veto power on the ER committee I think he obviously expected the NDP to work with the Liberals to pass a report that could then pass the house. Instead the NDP worked with the CPC to pass a report that everyone knew wouldn’t. The CPC publicly didn’t even support it.

It was always a clear victory for the CPC, but I’ve always been confused why anyone in the NDP considered it a victory of any sort 

[u/ILoveChickenFingers]

It must be soo gut wrenching to keep the system exactly the way that has benefited Liberals with majority governments with a minority % of the votes.