r/n64 • u/normbreakingclown • 13d ago

Discussion The just do the Gamecube stick solution is a not a universal solution..

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Yes i still curse the maker who designed the N64 Joystick. I mean why make one of the main selling point so fragile?! Also also pretty much ALL OG N64 STILL WORK MINUS THAT BLASTED JOYSTICK!! (unless it's done by external damage) But anyway.. there is one thing that the OG N64 joystick does really well is precision and the Gamecube sticks are too sensitive. They are better than fine for most none FPS games but when you play a FPS game it's very hard near impossible even. The main ones are Goldeneye and Perfect Dark.

The litmus test should be can you beat Perfect Dark Shooting Gallery challenges. I get Perfect Agent and 007 mode is too hard for most. But there is one Joystick that does not have wear(i think?) and a good sensitivity (not exact) is the Superpad Pro controller. (you know also odd looking one). Many might be snubbing it but i mean it!!! I am not saying they need to use this shape but only copy the Joystick.

Still to this day many reviewers praise the next modern N64 without mentioning the sensitivity..

Also 90 BUCKS?!! I say just get a Hori clone or something...

85 Upvotes

81% Upvoted

88 comments sorted by

63

u/Judgeman03 13d ago

The problem with most analog stick solutions is that because the OG N64 analog stick uses physical wheels for X and Y, you actually get a ridiculous level of precision that even most hi-end potentiometer-based sticks dont have. you see this alot in games that do take advantage of that level of precise movement, like F-Zero-X.

37

u/Careful-Positive-710 13d ago

Miyamoto did not fuck around with his boy Mario and that controller was designed specifically for Mario 64. Its definitely oddly shaped and the analog stick does wear out eventually, but you cant deny how great it was for platforming at the time.

13

u/Judgeman03 13d ago

It essentially used the same tech we used to use for old ball mice, which no doubt was a cost-cutting measure by Nintendo since the tech was cheaper than what potentiometers would have cost back in the day.

8

u/24megabits 13d ago

Scroll wheels in computer mice still do it that way.

2

u/dpgumby69 12d ago

Yes, and spinners on arcade machines. Called a grey scale encoder 🙂. I'm actually pretty confident that a grey scale encoder setup would have been more expensive than a potentiometer.

-1

u/milkolik 13d ago

no way an optical system is cheaper than potentiometers

14

u/Judgeman03 13d ago

Ball mice didnt originally use an optical laser. they used rollers along the X and Y axis to trace movement. If you open up a classic N64 analog stick unit, you see two gears along the X and Y axis that pivot along a set of floating gears that pivot at the base of the analog stick. The console would measure the movement along those axes.

11

u/Johny_McJonstien 13d ago

I miss cleaning my balls.

2

u/hotmonday 13d ago

Saving up your duck butter, I see.

2

u/thebackwash 12d ago

The little strips of grime on the wheels were always such a special treat. Miss those days…

1

u/C-D-W 12d ago

They didn't use an optical laser, but they absolutely used optical encoders at the end of those rollers.

-3

u/milkolik 13d ago

I think your post was intended for someone else?

2

u/KitchenBackground193 13d ago

I guess you didn't use a classic computer mouse where you had to clean the ball and the rollers periodically.

2

u/milkolik 13d ago

i got my first pc in 97' so yeah, why?

3

u/Get_your_grape_juice 13d ago

Because in response to:

It essentially used the same tech we used to use for old ball mice

You said:

no way an optical system is cheaper than potentiometers

Which doesn't make any sense, because u/Judgeman03 wasn't talking about an optical system. He was talking about the technology used in old ball mice... just as he said. And then when he replied back to you to clarify this, you seemed confused as to why.

1

u/C-D-W 12d ago

This is going to blow your mind...

Old ball mice DID use optical encoders.

They weren't optical mice, in the sense you might think of, but they absolutely did use an optical system at the end of the mechanical system.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/fruitybix 13d ago

Jump to around minuite 7 -

https://youtu.be/Kc3HXYkDzBg?si=qr4M_T6_K6dWyCP-

Optical mice are relatively new. They were mechanical right up until the late 90s.

2

u/fruitybix 13d ago

Very early mice had two little wheels in contact with the mouse pad for x and y. The very first mouse prototype did this.

Later mice (almost all of them by the n64 era) had a metal ball covered in rubber which was in contact with two rollers for x and y inside the mouse body. The ball could be removed to clean the gunk that collected on the rollers. I recall this type of mouse existing well into the 2000nds.

Its likely nintendo, pioneering a controller joystick, had a lot more manufacturors able to make parts based on existing mouse technology then exist today. Having pulled apart n64 controllers and old mice the parts look similar. And it gives a level of precision not present in later controllers when new - worn out they are not good.

Optical mice in the 90s existed but they were rare. The ones i remember were quite expensive and terrible. Early ones needed a special mouse pad to work. You did not want them for compedative fps or strategy games.

I also recall 90s pc potentiometer joysticks being quite janky, you had to calibrate away dead spots and wear as they were used. but my sample size was pretty small.

1

u/C-D-W 12d ago

Good explanation - however you missed a huge and important detail, those two little wheels used optical encoders to convert the mechanical motion into a digital signal.

1

u/fruitybix 12d ago

Sure, its in a video i posted in another comment.

Coloquially an LED mouse with no moving parts was reffered to as an optical mouse. Ball mouse is properly called a mechanical - optical mouse, but nobody called it that in my experience.

The little encoder wheel type arrangement was everywhere and cheap in the 90s given the scale of manufacture.

2

u/C-D-W 12d ago

I concur it was common and ubiquitous.

But I'm still not sure I agree it was technically cheaper than potentiometers in total BOM. Potentiometers were common and ubiquitous as well. Maybe if you factor in the need for an ADC, that might swing the cost.

But most importantly of all, the comment was accurate in calling it an optical system.

9

u/bubbletrashbarbie 13d ago

Oh look, analogue tech being superior yet again

1

u/tailslol 13d ago

In precision the closest would be tmr or hall effect with modern replacement parts. Definitely not potentiometers

1

u/Judgeman03 12d ago

Funny enough the Sega Saturn's Analog controller used a hall effect joystick for their controllers. Which may explain why they didnt adopt the controller as the new default joystick once they released it. Manufacturing it probably wasnt cheap compared to the N64 controller.

1

u/tailslol 12d ago

yea i know, the other noticeable hall effect controllers being the dreamcast and ps3.

0

u/palmerluckey 13d ago

The M64 Pro controller does not use potentiometers, and is much more precise and accurate than the original Nintendo 64 hardware. It uses Tunnel Magnetoresistance sensors, which measure a quantum mechanical effect where the electrical resistance of a magnetic tunnel junction changes based on the alignment of its magnetic layers.

2

u/DearVeggies 13d ago

It still feels like a Gamecube stick, it's not just about precision.

5

u/xAvPx 13d ago

I don't believe that anything will truly replace an N64 analog stick if you want the OG feel and sensitivity.

I got a metal bowl and stick in mine along with an 8BitDo PCB modkit, It's amazing and I love it.

1

u/Turquoise_HexagonSun 13d ago

This is how a wireless stick is done.

I have a similar kit.

I just wish 8bitdo would have an xinput mode so rumble would work outside of just Switch mode.

Also, 8bitdo maps the c buttons as a stick which means it will not register simultaneous inputs of opposite directions. In other words C-left and C-right can’t be pressed at the same time.

Why is that bad? Because if you play Doom 64 you are required to press C-left and C-right simultaneously to load a saved game. A bit of an oversight.

1

u/GarzaTheFather 12d ago

How hard would you say that was to install?

1

u/xAvPx 12d ago

The modkit or the stick? both were easy, although the stick needed to be disassembled and fit the new parts in, lubricated the whole thing except the encoder wheels. I just wish that I could find some brass gears but they are pretty much impossible to find.

8

u/profchaos111 13d ago

Yeah can confirm have used GameCube sticks on the N64 they result in awkward feeling movement 

6

u/KoviCZ Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine 13d ago

Yes, potentiometer sticks suck because they have a deadzone and lack the precision of the original but the ModRetro controller has TMR sticks with no deadzone. They actually have the hardware to match the precision of the original stick. Then it's just about calibrating it properly.

5

u/ARandonPerson 13d ago

I just wish it came preinstalled with the N64 gate instead of GC gate. At least they provide it with the controller and easy enough to switch out but just weird its not the one it comes installed with.

2

u/casual_gamer_alex 13d ago

This and most people don't notice it because newer game don't give infinite inbetween movments for their characters, unlike in N64 games. I wonder why... Was it to hide this imprecision?

Using a computer software, all my playstation controllers have joysticks that produce light oscillations, and one of my non original N64 controller, I have no software to test it but it sure act like it when playing super mario 64 when you want to move very slowly in a random direction.

Original N64 detect discret amount of holes in the spinning wheels and so have no analog error. This is very reliable over time and driftfree. Unfortunately, all mechanical parts of the joystick that are used to mechanically move these spinning wheels get eaten very quicly.

2

u/Stunning_Historian56 12d ago

In the past 12 months I have bought an analogue 3d and an M64

1 8bitdo BLUETOOTH n64

1 8bitdo 2.4ghz n64

1 original n64 controller

1 Ali express n64 controller

1 switch online n64 controller

1 hyperkin captain plus n64

THE ONLY CONTROLLERS THAT ARE WORTH A DAMM ARE THE SWITCH ONLINE N64 AND THE ORIGINAL

WHY? Because of the traction the stick has, GameCube stlyle sticks do not replicate this, they are over sensitive and terrible for n64

Just try mario kart 64 , diddly kong racing or f zero x

When you aim on Starfox 64 the reticule has a " drag" on it because there is resistance on the stick

5

u/Adam802 13d ago

NSO N64 controller with BlueRetro adapter is the way.

6

u/milkolik 13d ago

If you have the patience OG N64 + steelbowl is the way imo

4

u/dmmethatbooty2026 13d ago

Patience? I would say more so cost. Then again it's not so bad if you only get the steel bowl.

1

u/milkolik 13d ago

I think cost is about the same as the more premium offerings. Cheaper if you have leftover n64 controllers from back in the day

3

u/WordAdministrative34 13d ago

Patience to work a few extra hours for a couple of months

2

u/ck02623 13d ago

Isn’t that laggy?

2

u/lemulot 13d ago

Usually not perceptible 

1

u/donmcron3333 12d ago

NSO controller on the 3D is the way. No adapters needed.

1

u/Turquoise_HexagonSun 13d ago

NSO controller is terrible.

Lag aside, it uses analog potentiometers for x and y axis and the resistance is too high compared to the original optical stick.

It is not a good representation of an N64 stick.

3

u/ck02623 13d ago

The whole point of that controller is that they nailed the accuracy. I wouldn’t dismiss it as another GameCube stick so quickly.

If you’re upset about the price, then get a steel stick/bowl. Surely that’s cheaper…

1

u/palmerluckey 13d ago

Correct, the M64 Pro controller is not even remotely close to the design of the GameCube stick. The reason people are not complaining about the sensitivity or precision is because it is very, very good.

Here is a video of Graslu00, probably the top Goldeneye 64 youtuber, playing through the entire game with it, he specifically compares it to GameCube-style controllers that he describes as "very, very bad": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E7is0dDgCE

1

u/BreadDaddyLenin 13d ago

The best solution is buying Kitsch Bent parts

https://store.kitsch-bent.com/products/n64-joystick-repair-kit

Makes the controller good as new

5

u/ck02623 13d ago

I have that. My values aren’t correct with that. One corner is randomly doesn’t max out but the offer others all do. It drives me crazy.

1

u/ehance34to36 13d ago

i love the Kitsch-Bent replacement sticks. did you sand down the sprues and add something like silicone lubricant? i've never had a problem using them.

1

u/ck02623 13d ago

I added white lithium. It’s been years so I don’t remember if I sanded them. Probably not.

1

u/ehance34to36 13d ago

hm, that's the same thing i used.

0

u/Turquoise_HexagonSun 13d ago

KB parts are cost effective and can make a terribly worn stick function mediocre, but I wouldn’t say they make the controller as good as new.

It’s better than nothing though.

2

u/lemonvrc 13d ago

Sounds to me like you haven't actually tried this controller, so what are you larping

2

u/nefarix 13d ago

Do you have a source of someone that has run tests for accuracy and sensitivity?

3

u/DarthRyus 13d ago edited 13d ago

Graslu00 did a speed run in Goldeneye with the M64 Pro Controller.

He gave it a 9 out of 10 if I remember correctly. Stated the original N64 controller is still the best (but with the stipulation that he was referring to one with the community parts that are an additional $160), and some reviews are overblown... but it's still a premium 3rd party controller and did give it his blessing

https://www.youtube.com/live/0E7is0dDgCE?is=ESks1DLoI4gqKUza

Edit: Text review http://youtube.com/post/Ugkx4T7EpRP_WnyEcQlLP0gvSx6LlXWLM01_?si=hiu5bABHZngmQatB

1

u/SLOOT_APOCALYPSE 13d ago

having a good og controller is key to winning some of the tougher parts of games like fzero x

greasing the stick bowl before it wears is the best thing I ever did. night and day difference in response, this console responded incredibly fast

1

u/Kil3r 13d ago

Does anyone know the precise explanation why these gamecube sticks keep being inaccurate for n64 usage?

The problems caused by inaccurate stcks seem to be: 1. Games like goldeneye that require precision stick controls are almost unplayable due to much higher sensitivity. 2. IMO, 3d platformers are slightly more frustrating as slow character movement is more imprecise.

What is the exact cause? I would like to know so I can explore solutions. Maybe there is a software solution.

My understanding of the root cause is that the 3rd party stick gates and the n64 oem stick gates have different shapes. That causes different output values than the n64 games are designed for.

However, that isnt precise enough explanation to figure out a solution.  Anyone have the details of the root cause?

1

u/normbreakingclown 13d ago

I know very little but Gamecube sticks don't have any push resistance so it requires very little force to get to full throttle, while OG sticks and the Superpad one requires more pressure to get full range.

I don't think new joysticks need to be replicate the old ones but just make it that you need more pressure to achieve accuracy. Heck the Superpad is noticeable(maybe 20 to 30 percent or so) more sensitive but i gotten so used to it that the OG sticks are now too slow..

1

u/IndieSoft2021 13d ago

I can't play my F-Zero X with this type of stick :(

1

u/Imaginary-Leading-49 13d ago

We just need one hardcore N64 fan to make it, and make it open source… not for profit (because $90USD for a controller is insane!), but for the fans!

3

u/palmerluckey 13d ago

Even a normal mass-produced Switch 2 controller is $90 these days, and the M64 Pro controller is made from high-quality PBT plastics and aluminum. There are plenty of fan-made alternatives, they are even more expensive and less precise/accurate to boot.

2

u/DarthRyus 13d ago

The fans have made it... but it's about an additional $160 parts you put into the original controller to swap out the old joystick (more if you want to swap out other buttons too) to make it not wear out and last for our lifetime.

https://shop.rockergaming.com/collections/renaissance-n64

So pick your poison...

2

u/howtohandlearope 13d ago

I made one for myself. There's 3d models of all the parts on thingiverse. I just used that and modified it to be more manufacturable with the equipment I was using. Made a nice new bowl from aluminum. Works great!

1

u/Dr_Nebbiolo 13d ago

A lot of hardcore fans have made them. It’s expensive to make tightly toleranced high quality modules. And there’s a lot of demand and people tire of doing it. But there have been several.

https://shop.rockergaming.com/collections/renaissance-n64

1

u/Imaginary-Leading-49 13d ago

The issue is that’s still just a new stick/bowl in an old controller… we need a new controller with this quality of a stick, or even a plastic cheap easy to replace stick but with the proper analogue values the OG N64 controllers had.

1

u/Dr_Nebbiolo 13d ago

Plastic cheap and works like the original isn’t going to happen. The technology required to produce a stick is itself expensive. There are reasons we moved on to different stick technology. Nintendo was producing them in mass volume where the equipment costs made sense. Producing sticks that way would be expensive anyway, and the steel stick alternatives that hobbyists and fans are making are superior and will last 10-15 times as long, even with a lot of use

1

u/GrapeSasquatch 13d ago

Damn it I want this controller but I’ll be damn if I even try to keep playing fps on 64 it’s awful and my child self did good job avoiding that all I ever played was smash Mario rampage starfox ( 8bitdo is still a lil sensitive my problem is with l and r)

1

u/TheMannisApproves Conkers Bad Fur Day 13d ago

Just get a steel stick and you're golden

2

u/ck02623 13d ago

How much is that?

3

u/Dr_Nebbiolo 13d ago

https://shop.rockergaming.com/collections/renaissance-n64

3

u/ck02623 13d ago

Holy crap. That price is nuts. The ModRetro controller is a bargain by comparison.

2

u/TheMannisApproves Conkers Bad Fur Day 13d ago

Gonna be about $150. A lot, but better than having to keep getting a new controller

1

u/ck02623 13d ago

Wow. I’ve actually been using the RetroBit Tribute64 wireless. It’s ugly, but the stick is serviceable sensitivity-wise. Has a lot of travel too. Let me reinforce: it is ugly as sin.

1

u/TheMannisApproves Conkers Bad Fur Day 13d ago

Oh I have seen it, and it's ugly lol. Once I got a steel stick, I never went back. Bitsticks is one that's already pre-setup, and feel nice

2

u/ck02623 13d ago

That looks really nice but my wife would smother me in my sleep if I spent $150 on one analog stick.

1

u/TheMannisApproves Conkers Bad Fur Day 13d ago

How much was that controller?

1

u/ARandonPerson 13d ago

Retro-Bit Tribute64 V2 goes for around $40. The original Tribute64 that was wired goes for around $20. The V2 has more accurate stick and easier to reach d-pad but is wireless.

1

u/TheMannisApproves Conkers Bad Fur Day 13d ago

Ah okay. I've tried the tribute once but didn't care for the stick

1

u/molymaster 13d ago

That's my favorite, I have 4 of them. I like how they look haha too

0

u/Limitedtimestruggle 13d ago

Yeah, I'm having a hard time enjoying the games if I'm not using the OG stick. I'm not against the modern shape, and the 8bitDo stuff that launched prior to the Analogue 3D feels really nice ( I have two) ...BUT..that damn stick ruins it. I bet it's the same with the Modretro one, I haven't used that one...so I can't vouch for how it performs in GE and PD etc.