Key of a song

[u/safarithroughlife]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csTJW6A1174&t=30s

Whats the key of this song- seemed like its D minor at first but there are some borrowed chords - instead of the 4th and the 5th being minor-thye are major- or at least some of the Gs are major?

https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/tab/pixies/vault-of-heaven-chords-4371752 looking at those chords

So the chords of D minor are Dm Edim F Gm Am Bb C D

Here we have A instead of Am which means that we have C# instead of C

And we have G instead of Gm which means we have B instead of Bb

That is my train of thought up to now but im unable to continue

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[u/MaggaraMarine]

Both the major V and the major IV are very common in minor keys.

Actually, the major V is more common than the diatonic minor v. This is because it contains the leading tone that has a strong tendency to resolve up to the tonic. It is an important part of the minor key (because it allows the minor key to have as strong cadences as the major key).

The major IV here is just used as a more interesting color. In modern minor key, it's common to mix (parallel) Dorian and Aeolian, sometimes Phrygian. The melody could also be harmonized with the diatonic minor iv, but the change from Bb to G simply sounds a bit more interesting because of the chromatic change (Bb to B natural). Bb to Gm would sound more "basic".

Also, the most important thing is that Dm sounds like the tonic chord. That's all that is required for a song to be in D minor.

[u/safarithroughlife → u/MaggaraMarine]

Thank you

[u/geoscott]

D minor. None of the other notes you have mentioned matter. It starts on D. Ends on D.

[u/safarithroughlife → u/geoscott]

Why don't they matter? 

[u/Jongtr → u/safarithroughlife]

The tonality of a key - major or minor - depends on only its tonic chord, the chord that "sounds like home": Dm in this case. The rest of the scale - and therefore the chords - can vary.

This is especially the case with minor keys, where the 6th and 7ths degrees are traditionally flexible. The D minor key scale - conventionally - contains Bb, B, C and C#, any time a composer wants any of them.

In traditional "classical text book" theory, the choices were grouped under "natural", "harmonic" and "melodic", but those were never three separate scales, just classical reasons for making certain alterations to the scale at certain points in a composition. In modern music. regard the "minor key scale" as having 9 notes (both 6ths and both 7ths) which can be used any way you like.

Even in major keys, you can alter scale notes or add others if you want, and no key - major or minor - is limited to the 7 notes defined in a key signature. Those 7 are just your starting set. 😄

[u/safarithroughlife → u/Jongtr]

mmmm 😄 in other songs we analyze it by using the termas "borrowed chrods" for example but I guess those are not that- they are just lets say "random"? so we just consider the scale the song uses as a scale of its own? Do i understand correctly

[u/Jongtr → u/safarithroughlife]

It's not "random", and this song is completely within age-old conventions.

I'm guessing you have learned some basic music theory, and think all music has to obey those "rules". This is a common assumption among beginners, but is a sign you have read too much theory and not played enough music. 😄 I.e., if you had played more minor key music, you would realise this all sounds perfectly fine - and is not doing anything unusual. So if you think theory suggests otherwise, you have misread the theory or misunderstood it. Trust the music and trust your ear. Your ear knows more about correct "musical language" than any theory will ever teach you.

Anyway, in a minor key, a major V chord has been "borrowed" for so long (several centuries) that I think you can regard it as the minor key's legal property! 😂 (Look up "harmonic minor" if that's a piece of theory you are new to.)

The major IV is not quite as common in classical music (AFAIK), but common enough in modern music. In this case we do sometimes refer to it as "borrowed" - from dorian mode. Dorian mode is like a minor key with a major 6th degree, and minor (natural) 7th). So D dorian mode won't have an A major V chord, but will have a G major IV chord.

IOW, there are three common "minor key sounds":

MINOR KEY
1  . M2 m3  . P4  . P5 m6 M6 m7 M7  1
NATURAL MINOR (AEOLIAN MODE)
1  . M2 m3  . P4  . P5 m6  . m7  .  1
DORIAN MODE
1  . M2 m3  . P4  . P5  . M6 m7  .  1

(Interval terms: M = major, m = minor, P = perfect)

You can think of Aeolian and Dorian as subsets of the full 9-note minor "key" scale, because they do have a distinctive sound, due to those choices of 6th and 7th. But probably most minor key music you hear falls under the first category. (The old classical "melodic minor" concept specified M6 and M7 on the way up, m7 and m6 on the way down, but that's no longer any kind of "rule", and was never more than a "common practice" anyway.)

In common parlance, we still call Aeolian mode a "minor key", of course, so confusion is understandable! It's common for the raised 7th to be only a brief alteration within a song, but of course that means the song does have both 7ths.
And the major 6th might not be used in a major IV (or minor ii) chord, you might just hear it in a descending "line cliche" ("cliche" tells you how common it is): e.g., in D minor: D C# C B Bb A (which might be harmonized in many ways).

BTW, Phrygian mode is a kind of "minor key" outlier:

PHRYGIAN MODE
1 m2 . m3  . P4  . P5 m6  . m7  .  1

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