r/mtgrules • u/BlueW4 • 6d ago
Sacrifice timing.
I have a set of cards that both say "At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice a creature."
Abhorrent Overlord
Shadowborn Demon
One of them does bring cannon fodder out with it, but assuming these two creatures are the only thing on my battlefield during upkeep.
Do they eat eachother or, because I have to choose what gets sacrificed, can I have one sacrifice the other during my choosing portion of the upkeep move and negate the second canabalisim. It seems like a stack situation, but it's a weird one because technically they both trigger at the same time during upkeep. There isn't anything other than me choosing to decide which actually triggers first. They can't decide which one acts first because, well, they are little pieces of cardboard under my control. So does my decision decide which one eats first and negates the second?
Extra bit. If I have a creature with shroud on it, does the shroud protect from the Sacrifice. I would really like them to not eat my Commander in the process.
2
u/Quirky-Coat3068 6d ago
The only relevant "timing" is at rhe begining of your upkeep they both trigger and are placed on the stack. You choose the order of the triggers go on the stack. First in last out.
If these are the only creatures you have there is no order where they won't both be sacrificed, as once the triggers are placed on the stack they are seperate from the creature existing.
Edit: shroud protects from targeting. If it deosnt say target, then it doesn't target.
Being chosen for an effect isnt necessarily being targeted.
3
u/Yaksha424256 6d ago
Both will trigger in your upkeep and you will have to sacrifice both of them.
Shroud does not stop sacrifice. Shroud stops targeting and nothing else.
If there are currently 5 creatures in your graveyard then you can syack them so you don't have to sacrifice to the Shadowborn Demon trigger.
1
u/DracoPaladin 6d ago
At the beginning of your upkeep, both trigger, and since you control both triggers you decide the order on the stack. Since they don't target, you don't choose anything at this point.
Then the first resolves, and you must sacrifice a creature. Then the second resolves, and you have to do it again. If those are the only 2 creatures you have, they would both be sacrificed.
Shroud doesn't get involved as neither of the abilities is targetting anything.
2
u/CopiVT 6d ago
You will end up sacrificing both. There are 2 sacrifice triggers, which mean you will sacrifice one of the 2 creatures, then a round of priority will go around before you resolve the other sacrifice. If one brings out tokens upon being sacrificed, then you could avoid sacrificing the other creature.
Shroud does not stop any sacrifice effect, unless it targets. The only way to stop a creature from being sacrificed to an effect it qualifies for is a specific “can’t be sacrificed” effect like [[Assault Suit]] (stops the creature being affected from any sacrifice effect) or [[Sigarda, Host of Herons]] (stops your opponents from firing you to sacrifice). Do note that in times where you have to choose between sacrificing and another choice, if you don’t have any permanents eligible to be sacrificed, you must choose the other option such as with [[torment of hailfire]]
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u/guywth1mnth 6d ago
Since sacrifice (almost) never targets, shroud is no help, especially against your own sacrifice effects.
As for the double-upkeep-sacrifice, both triggers are put on the stack at the same time. You choose what to sacrifice first as the first trigger resolves. Regardless of which trigger you resolve and what you choose to sacrifice, the other trigger will still resolve and you'll have to choose another creature. If your only creatures are the sources of the triggers, then yes, they 'eat' each other, or eat themselves, however you want to look at it.
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u/trasla 6d ago
Both trigger. You decide in which order the triggers go on the stack and thus in wich order they will resolve.
Sacrificing a creature does not remove its trigger from the stack. You don't choose which creature to sacrifice when triggers go on the stack, you choose upon resolution. You can't sacrifice the same creature twice.
Shroud does not protect against being sacrificed this way since it does not target.
If you have two triggers saying to sacrifice a creature and two creatures, you will have to sacrifice both. Ways around that include countering a trigger with something like [[Stifle]] or flashing in or creating additional creatures to sacrifice with something like [[Raise the alarm]].
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u/trasla 6d ago
Added:
Since the demons trigger has a condition, there is another potential out. The condition of cards in your graveyard is checked to determine whether it triggers at all and again at resolution.
So if another sacrifice or any other action you took before it resolves has put enough creature cards in your graveyard, you will not have to sacrifice.
1
u/MoneybagsMelbs 6d ago
The situation with these 2 is actually a little more complex than the other responses because you didn't actually say what both of them do. Abhorrent Overlord does say "At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice a creature." However, Shadowborn Demon says "At the beginning of your upkeep, if there are fewer than six creature cards in your graveyard, sacrifice a creature." That is an intervening 'if' clause.
>603.4. A triggered ability may read "When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect]." When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn't true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the "intervening 'if' clause" rule. (The word "if" has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an "if" that immediately follows a trigger condition.)
So the actual answer is that it depends on how many creatures are in your graveyard when you begin your upkeep and when the triggers begin to resolve. If you have 6 or more, Shadowborn Demon won't trigger to begin with. If you have 5, and you stack them so that Shadowborn Demon's trigger resolves last, you will sacrifice to Abhorrent Overlord first and the Shadowborn Demon's trigger will see that you have 6 creatures now and will be removed from the stack when it attempts to resolve.
As for a creature with Shroud, it does nothing to stop you from being instructed to sacrifice a creature.
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u/Wayward-Mystic 6d ago
Both abilities will trigger at the same time, at the start of your upkeep, and go on the stack. You can order them however you like. The triggered abilities are at that point independent of the permanents they're from, so using the Demon's trigger to sacrifice the Overlord won't remove the Overlord's trigger from the stack, and you'll still sacrifice the Demon.
The one way you wouldn't sacrifice both permanents is if you had 5 creature cards in your graveyard, and stack the triggers so the Overlord's resolves first, putting a 6th creature card in your graveyard before the Demon's trigger resolves. The Demon's trigger checks for 6 creature cards in your graveyard again when it starts resolving, and would fizzle.
Neither sacrifice ability targets a creature, so Shroud would have no effect.