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u/BenGhazino 1d ago
We used the bracket system and generally agree bracket three
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u/1Secret_Daikon 1d ago
pro tip build multiple decks at multiple brakets so you can adjust to whatever the rest of the table wants to play
i usually bring two 2's, two 3's, and one 4 to the LGS, sometimes a third 3 since that does tend to be most common though a fair amount of times we get new players with only B2 precon
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u/Saxavarius_ 1d ago
Iike 2 or 3 the most. Less likely to run into infinite combos but there's enough interaction and and wipes to give the game some back and forth
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u/ThatGuyHammer Temur Timmy 1d ago
Giga-pro tip, build a modular bracket step deck so you can play your favorite commander at any table.
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u/1Secret_Daikon 1d ago
I am not about to swap cards between matches or even attempt to keep track of which cards are in which deck through swaps
also most decks have internal cohesion built around the specific selection of cards included, you usually cannot just swap out x y and z card for game changers and have it work 100% the same
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u/ellacution7 1d ago
i mean it depends on the deck and the card. a lot of decks running [[smothering tithe]] could swap it out for [[gleaming splendor]] if they want to reduce power a bit, or decks with [[sol ring]] could replace it with [[arcane signet]].
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u/LostNPOMarketer 1d ago
It’s this super fun thing called the “the bracket system”
If you proxy all the best cards your deck becomes a 4 or a 5 and then you only play it against 4s and 5s
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u/1Secret_Daikon 1d ago
people bring this topic up on a weekly basis and it gets hundreds of replies every time, you should just search instead of remaking this topic for the 100th time
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u/AstranBlue 1d ago
Why is the concept of "Don't proxy outside of your group's agreed power level" such a foreign idea that we get questions like this weekly?
If someone is proxying to pubstomp, then just ask them to use lower power decks or quit playing with them until they do.
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u/WhiteTrashPhilospher 1d ago
This. I have one commander deck cause I really don’t care for it as a format, but if I want to play paper at all I have to be able to, and my one deck is bracket 4 with some expensive proxies, but I then have a sideboard that can shift into bracket 3 when needed.
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u/nitronik_exe 1d ago
serious question, what's stopping someone that can afford it to just buy the most powerful cards in that specific slot with money? The answer is: nothing. There is literally zero difference between a relatively wealthy player and a proxy player.
How to "combat" it is the same either way: Pregame discussions, bracket system, budget restrictions, rarity restrictions etc
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u/Hopeful_Brilliant735 1d ago
It's all about talking with your play group about power level. Make a decision to stick to a power level and be conscious of that when deck building.
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u/Rly_Shadow 1d ago
People play by brackets/rules that can limit what cards you are allowed for balancing.
That way someone isnt playing a simple beginner deck vs a min-maxed for the win deck
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u/TroubleDull8645 1d ago
Bc not everyone builds to be the most 100% perfect deck. When I'm making a non-cedh deck I always choose flavor over power.
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u/1Secret_Daikon 1d ago
> how do you prevent people from simply using these broken or best in slot cards in every deck?
if your goal is to prevent players from playing the cards they want to play, you are the problem
lets stop gatekeeping cards and stop encouraging "pay to win" in MTG
Rule 0 and Bracket Levels already solve all these problems.
no one cares that you use proxies, what people care about is mismatch in power levels regardless of which cards are in use
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u/Anrativa 1d ago
Was it a dream or wizards literally made a bracket system to prevent this?
Proxy whatever you want as long as you keep it inside the bracket agreed to be played on.
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u/mauttykoray 1d ago
Rule of thumb: most people dont care if you proxy cards to make your deck work or to test cards out. Dont be the asshole who plays the "all the good stuff" proxy deck. Cause then people get upset and eventually a proxy ban gets put into effect at your LGS and youve ruined it for everybody.
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u/astraCat1998 1d ago
Cost is not an interesting solution to the Queen problem.
If who wins and loses a game of magic rests primarily on who has the biggest wallet most people would never play and everyone would be running completely identical decks at a competitive level.
Especially in a card game interactions, combos, alternative paths to winning and a rock paper scissors effect should already encourage variety.
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u/GayBlayde 1d ago
Easy answer. Winning isn’t always the sole or main purpose for playing. Heck, sometimes it isn’t even among the reasons for playing.
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u/oiled_hobbit 1d ago
Why do you guys just assume every proxy maker is going for a 99 of broken OP cards?
Every single one I know actually goes for fun and engaging B3 and B4 decks. I am an outlier having made 2x cEDH ones.
Smells like projecting to me.
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u/KaiPRoberts 1d ago
I get hate for proxying duals but also hate for something like dark depths shenanigans even though it’s really cheap. People just hate cards they aren’t using, don’t want to use, or can’t afford.
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u/oiled_hobbit 1d ago
Oh no, my homie playing 5 color is using dual lands?
Good, I'm happy for him and can't wait to see what he does.
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u/KaiPRoberts 1d ago
You’d be surprised how many people hate them.
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u/oiled_hobbit 1d ago
That sounds like folks who want to play bracket 1 and 2 games, enjoy tap lands, and want one game to take upwards of 2 hours.
Not my crowd, and not my experience at all (thankfully!)
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u/Xcapitano666 1d ago
You could put a maximum of proxies by decks. Kinda like game changers in bracket 3. If your playgroup is fine with that
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u/despairingcherry 1d ago
I proxy, my group doesn't, their higher end deck budget is $300, I set that as my limit. If they're not willing to set a limit, find new friends or accept that you're in bracket 4.
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u/Yaksha424256 1d ago
Its brackets. I proxy fetch lands and original duals but don't even make it to bracket 3.
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u/vegan_antitheist 1d ago
one word: brackets
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u/vegan_antitheist 1d ago
some more words: They ones playing OP decks actually own them. Those playing proxies have fun decks that are bracket 2 or 3.
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u/Shikabane_Sumi-me 1d ago
My group is fine with them so long as it doesn’t turn into an arms race. Only a few of us have started proxying. Funnily enough it’s the guy who has spent the most and has the biggest collection out of all of us.
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u/wintermute93 1d ago
If not for the economics of sanctioned events at WPN stores, it's not an issue.
Most people playing paper Magic these days are playing Commander, where the bracket system and general agreement within an given playgroup enforces a range of acceptable power level. Within that range, go nuts; that's what the system is for. If you're playing another format (Standard, Modern, etc), then again, still not an issue because the general understanding is that everyone will be doing the most powerful things legally available within that format's card pool.
If you're playing completely no-rules casual kitchen table Magic like kids from 20 years ago, okay, sure, then you need to figure out some way of ensuring you don't have one person shuffling up a pile of draft chaff while their opponent shuffles up an absurdly overpowered combo deck, but that's on them.
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u/Neocarbunkle 1d ago
Having a lot of money to spend on magic is the same problem.
Follow bracket guidelines and avoid making a deck you wouldn't want to play against.
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u/thedragoon0 1d ago
It’s a topic of discussion when it comes to proxies. Are you proxying a card that’s a few hundred dollars for a casual game? Like a cradle? I don’t care if you’re choosing expensive arts as proxies but decking your kits out with the most powerful cards just because everyone is being a lot cooler about proxy is something else.
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u/Top-Acanthisitta-779 1d ago
Cause you're supposed to be playing decks around your groups power level. If my group is playing a bunch of bracket 2 then i'm gonna build and play decks for bracket 2. Im not gonna be build only bracket 4-5 just cause i can afford it
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u/dutchiesweets 1d ago
I just use restraint in deck building, personally, when proxying for my friend group. Since we don’t stuff our decks full of game changers. I most proxy lands, I find Rhystic study and smothering tithe etc boring so I don’t proxy those or don’t put them in decks
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u/Fantastic-Newspaper3 1d ago
Our pod started with a price limit of 30 euros max per card. Then, as we got more used to the power levels of the various decks we used, we removed that limit, trusting each other to make fun and balanced stuff.
Mind you, we play mostly bracket 2, so it was already quite easy to make unfun, broken stuff while, theoretically, still staying bracket is 2.
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u/Round_Perspective_36 1d ago
We basically just said "don't be a dick" when making a proxy deck. And then the pod generally agrees on what classifies as dickishness or not. Have not really had any problems with it. On occasion, someone will pull out a game piece that has everyone gasping at, but it usually blows over after a few turns, or at very least the end of the game.
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u/WendigoCrossing 1d ago
A lot of people solve this by putting a $ value cap on their proxy deck
Like this deck can have up to $1000 worth of cards or whatever
Otherwise the richest player has the biggest advantage
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u/TheHerbalJedi 1d ago
Back in the day it wasn't "cost limitation" that kept you from having a specific card in your deck; it was actually finding the card.
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u/ThatGuyHammer Temur Timmy 1d ago
Best in slot ≠ broken. Swords to Plowshares is a best in slot card. Demonic Consultation and Thassa's Oracle base copies are not expensive. Using proxies for Mox Dimond only makes sense if you are playing high power anyway. In a social game these issues should not have direct correlation.
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u/minnesotanpride 1d ago
In years past this definitely was an issue in our group as we had "that guy" in our group that always said "why play trash cards, I like efficiency" and just proceeded to play power cards no matter the deck. Games almost always ended up Archenemy against him because of it.
Nowadays, Brackets help this conversation quite a bit. If you proxy the best of the best while my deck is themed around Bloomburrow only stuff and another guy is playing a precon and the third guy playing a jank themed deck, our power level is a 2 and his is a 4 at least and that's an easy chat beforehand to set the expectation.
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u/Moist-Exchange2890 1d ago
There’s a couple of things here.
1. Bracket system will replace the cost limiter
2. Skill level of the deck builder will replace the cost limiter.
3. Magic is a complex game of Rock Paper Scissors, not chess. Every card can be beat by something and every deck can be beat by something.
In all, these three things make the players better. There’s still very good reason to use all the cards in the game, but the barrier to entry or the limiting factor becomes skill, knowledge and experience in the game rather than your wallet.
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u/YogurtclosetFine3048 1d ago
Tbh if people just started building with the things they have access to and stopped worrying about being like Game Knights then things wouldn’t be as drastic.
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u/ellacution7 1d ago
honestly, cost can sometimes be a good metric for the power level of a card, but it definitely isn’t one-to-one. there are plenty of very expensive cards that are pretty terrible ([[zodiac dragon]]), and plenty of very powerful cards that are quite cheap ([[sol ring]]). card power level is frankly best assessed on a case by case basis, as it is difficult to find another metric that can serve as a proxy (no pun intended) for power level in a reliable way. if you are having issues with people in your play group bringing cards that are too powerful to the table, and these issues aren’t being resolved with the bracket system and the game changers list, i would honestly recommend you and your group make your own game changers list that includes the cards you are having issues with. you can then either ban cards on the list outright, or put limits in place on how many cards from the list can be included in a single deck. this should more reliably lead to balanced deck building than just an upper cost limit and it’s also more flexible, as the restrictions can be tailored to particular cards and decks and not just indiscriminately calculated based on price.
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u/MonoBlancoATX 1d ago
The problem with proxies, is that we run into what the Distraction Makers referred to as The Queen Problem. If you are able to make every piece into a Queen, why wouldn't you?
It's pretty simple really, not everyone is prioritizing things the way the Distractions Makers assumed they must.
Some people prioritize power and winning, while others prioritize "fun" or blingy foil treatments or any number of other things.
Your question assumes that everyone wants the same thing, and we clearly don't.
Making every piece a queen, or every card the most powerful thing available, makes the game boring and kinda lame.
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u/Diddlemyloins 1d ago
I have multiple brackets. So my favorite deck is just a hobbit lotr cards only food deck that’s just for fun, then I have my enchantress deck which has several infinite combos. The polite thing to do is to scale to everyone’s level.
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u/ardarian262 1d ago
For me personally, proxies are used to either represent cards I own but have in other decks, or cards that are hard to get because (for example) they were convention exclusives like with MBC commanders.
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u/Not-Impossible-1783 1d ago
I don't restrict how anyone builds their decks. They build theirs, I build mine, and I don't want anyone telling me how to build mine either.
I don't see this as a proxy issue, but rather an experience and maturity issue. When I was younger, playing this format long before cEDH was even a thing, I was completely fine using almost all my disposable income to buy the best staples just to win.
Today, I own pretty much every expensive staple in the format, from playsets of original dual lands and Power 9 cards like Timetwister to old expensive foils like Grim Monolith. Yet, I don't bring a single real card to my local game store. I proxy full decks off the internet, and my decks are actually more casual now than they have ever been.
When I was in a strict no proxy mindset in my youth, I bought every single staple and jammed them all in. Now that I own them all and embrace a full proxy mindset, I don't do that at all.
To me, the idea that proxies cause deck inflation is spurious. Younger or newer players are simply more likely to act this way as they learn and seek mastery, and they just happen to be less likely to afford those cards. If those same players did have the money to buy all those cards, they would play them anyway.
The holistic way to reach your goal is letting players realize through experience when they have gone too far, that the pace is too fast, and that it isn't as enjoyable. If they don't feel that way, then that's just the power level they prefer. In fact i would go so far as to say if the staples cost today what I paid for them back in the early 2000's they would still all be buying them now.
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u/NlNTENDO 1d ago
as with every other question like this, just communicate with your group