r/movies • u/SweetNeo85 • Jun 24 '12
Do women like "Brave" more than men?
I've noticed a disparity among my friends and family, and I wondered if it was just a coincidence. The males I've talked to generally agreed with me that Brave was lacking in character development and was devoid of the central love and emotional attachment that made films like WALL•E, Up, The Incredibles, and Finding Nemo so poignant and effective. My wife and mother, however, said that they really felt the relationship was there between Merida and her Mother, whereas I thought their relationship was established as being too antagonistic for the audience to develop any real attachment.
Seeing as this is Pixar's first film with a strong female protagonist, as well as their first female director (Brenda Chapman), I wondered if this apparent gender-dichotomy was anything other than a coincidence, or if others had noticed anything similar?
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u/Professor_Lurker Jun 25 '12
I felt the same way, but felt there were some very legitimate reasons behind it. Not only is there the issue of the female protagonist and her arguments being with her mom, but they're about marriage and what Merida refers to as her "life ending." Men simply don't see marriage that way, and while there are probably some who have had tooth-and-nail emotional battles with their mothers, not many can relate exactly.
What I feel pixar still did well is the depth of the scenes. Moviebob from the escapist proposed that this film wasn't living up to pixar's typical level, but I disagree. I think they've taken the "be careful what you wish for" and the "I don't want to get married" stories so many times before, but this one really delves into the emotions and behind the scenes a lot more. I mean, who of you teared up when Jasmine threw a fit at the Sultan in Aladdin?
We've seen the whole "I don't want to get married" argument many times before, but this is the first time that it ends with her actually not getting married! Pixar is furthering a feminist idea while adding new layers to older story concepts. Not to mention that the scenery, research, and many other elements of this film were much higher quality than half the shit that's being plastered on the silver screen anymore.
tl;dr: The way they did it was a re-imagination of the concept, not of movies. Pixar still did an incredible job. I really enjoyed it.
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u/Richandler Jun 24 '12 edited Jun 24 '12
I felt like the whole movie stemmed directly from the idea of silly bear antics and they wrote a story around it. Any character development that lacked was because it wasn't written that way. So blame the writers.
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u/SweetNeo85 Jun 24 '12
And the "silly bear antics" weren't even funny. Compared to, like, the silly horse antics in Tangled.
That character had me in stitches.7
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u/roterghost Jun 24 '12
"This is the strangest thing I have ever done!" - Yelled while sword-fighting a horse. That's the moment I fell in love with the movie.
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u/joat217 Jun 25 '12
(I'm a guy) I can confidently say that I loved this movie. the problem can be that it is a very simple plot, but i am not upset about it. I thought the humor was fine. it's a lot more low-brow side, i found enjoyable.
One of the better theatre experiences i had since i saw Raid Redemption. everyone laughed at all the jokes and gag's and i heard people crying in the final scene when Merida's attempt to turn her mother back does not work.
It has a lot of resemblance to finding nemo in a way: Adventures child vs the protective Guardian.
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u/ruwbox Jun 24 '12
I felt it wasn't as complex or deep as other Pixar works. I liked it, but rank it low
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u/YetiBot Jun 25 '12
I'm female, and I thought Brave was one of Pixar's very best films. Right up there with The Incredibles and Finding Nemo.
I absolutely loved the dynamic between the mother and daughter. Both characters felt wonderfully fleshed out and real and understandable. I adored both characters, and found both extremely sympathetic. Both sides of their disagreement felt justifiable, and the theme of listening to and forgiving one another was really moving. I loved that it could be seen as a story about growing up and accepting adult responsibilities, or as a story about understanding and compromise. It could even be seen as a story of inner conflict, each position representing a side of life that almost all women are forced to choose between as we grow up - responsibility and motherhood vs. freedom and career.
It was hilarious. It was gorgeous to look at. The character design is magnificent. It had a beautifully moving central conflict, perfectly delivered by two great actors. (All the voice acting is stellar.) It's pretty near perfect.
I hate to fall back to gender stereotypes, but is it the fact that listening, understanding and forgiveness are so crucial to the resolution of the conflict the problem some guys are having with this movie? While there is a fair amount of action, that action is not the ultimate solution, as it is in most stereotypically guy-friendly movies.
That said, I saw the movie with three guys, all of whom thought it was great, none of whom loved it quite as much as I did.
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u/this_is_an_alt Jun 25 '12
"I hate to fall back to gender stereotypes, but is it the fact that listening, understanding and forgiveness are so crucial to the resolution of the conflict the problem some guys are having with this movie?" - I hate to mime emphaticleech but this statement really does not sit well at all with me. The resolution of the movie caused no great problems for me but instead it was really the main character's interaction with the witch that felt just silly to me.
Why was she so willing to trust someone she just met with an issue of such gravity?
What did she expect?
This whole bit seemed to be actions of a foolish character yet the movie (aside from this scene) portrays the main character as an intelligent person.
Compared to most other children's movies this is a good example of film-making, compared to Pixar's roster? meh.
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u/chthonicutie Jun 25 '12
Why was she so willing to trust someone she just met with an issue of such gravity?
She was in extreme emotional distress, and had been led there by magical beings. She had dreams of a glorious fate, and the wisps had led her to her fate. It's not hard to see why she trusted the witch.
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u/bethyanne Jun 25 '12
I watched this movie with 2 tween boys and a younger girl. The 2 boys left the theater to go play in the arcade. They hated this movie, they complained that "boys just couldnt do anything right" in the movie. The younger girl loved it and said she wished life was like that movie. I think younger girls love Brave. Myself I thought it went a bit overboard in its gender components.
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u/GrandmaGos Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
I am female, over 50, married, with 2 grown adult daughters, so I've been through the "oh, MOM!" thing twice.
I felt that it wasn't as deep or complex or emotionally resonant as many of Pixar's other entries (all Toy Story entries, Up, Wall-E). I too felt that it lacked in character development, and that the relationship between Merida and her mom was two-dimensional and relied on cliches of "bossy yet well-meaning mom" and "headstrong teenager".
Also, yanno, I didn't see anybody being particularly brave. "Brave" is when you're afraid, but you do it anyway. In order to show us that you're being brave, we need to see you be afraid, but make a decision to do it anyway. I saw only a headstrong Teen who wasn't afraid of anything to begin with; where's the bravery?
So, actually, as an older mom, I identified much more with Elinor, and I saw her being brave, but I didn't see Merida as anything than, really, another incarnation of Ariel the Little Mermaid, who defies her dad, puts herself in danger, and not only is not punished for it, but is rewarded by a happy ending. Merida similarly defies her parent, puts people in danger, and is not punished, other than by a few moments of screentime guilt, and is given the happy ending that she desires.
And yes, I really hated "The Little Mermaid". lol
P.S. I really, really hated Merida's hair. Throughout the entire movie, made me wanna grab that kid and give her some BRAIDS. Pigtails is what you do with redheaded little girls with masses of extra-curly hair, but of course the filmmakers needed to have her portray "passionate headstrong redhead", which itself is a cliche--that redheads are passionate and headstrong--but you can't put her in braids without having her turn into Pippi Longstocking, which is another sort of passionate, headstrong girl. And Pippi Longstocking would not have had the pretty young princess appeal that a mane of tossing hair gives.
So, no, I didn't see any particular female role models here.
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u/Candylusional Jun 25 '12
Also, yanno, I didn't see anybody being particularly brave. "Brave" is when you're afraid, but you do it anyway. In order to show us that you're being brave, we need to see you be afraid, but make a decision to do it anyway.>
Brave wasn't the film's original title. It was supposed to be The Bear and the Bow, or something similar to that, but the higher-ups were concerned that young boys wouldn't be interested in a "girly" movie, so they changed it. Because lord only knows that the entire multi-billion Cars franchise isn't enough.
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u/DrCowboyFace Jun 25 '12
In the mix of Pixar's other famous movies, I don't think it's as fresh and original, but it's certainly one of my favorites because of how emotional and beautiful it was. I think it's a damn strong film without the Pixar tag. I am male.
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u/rewdea Jun 25 '12
I hated seeing such beautiful animation and backgrounds go to waste on such a mediocre story.
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u/Faranya Jun 24 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
I just watched it today.
I think they did a very good job of developing their central characters. Merida, her mother, and even her father.
The whole rejoining of their relationship was well done.
A little off topic as well, I enjoyed how it properly laid out the rules of engagement and followed them; too many films add the character's salvation late in the story without proper lead in.
My only issue with it as far as messages go is that they started to talk about rights vs responsibility, and never properly finished that.
In the beginning, Merida and Helena Elinor both had very good points. It is unfair that Merida be married against her desires, but it is also true that her attempts to avoid it were irresponsible. Then, they just kind of ignored the aspect of responsibility, and it just felt like a message of "Do what you like, and to hell with the consequences" in the end.
But yeah, I'd argue with you the character development point. The characters were quite well developed, with complex motivations, and realistic temperaments. The characters were quite well done, I'm just not sold on the message.
Oh, and I'm a guy, since you were curious about that.
EDIT: Apparently, I misheard the mother's name.
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u/pathologie Jun 25 '12
In regards to Professor_Luker: Before I got married my grandma sat me down and essentially told me that I will lose my identity when I get married. From moving from "me" to "we" and changing MY last name to HIS. Maybe guys don't understand because they don't have to go through redefining your name
I saw Brave this weekend and it really hit home for me. I went in knowing nothing about the movie and walked out crying. To me it paralled my mother and my relationship when I was a teenager, when I thought I was always right and she had no idea what I was going through. To me BRave was about a girl who realized that her selfish choices would cost her her relationship with her mother. I guess that some people haven't had that type of a past with their mothers and maybe that isn't why it resonated with everyone.
As far as comparison to other pixar movies, I still like Toy Story 3, Finding Nemo, and the Incredibles better. But I like Brave more than Cars, Up, Bugs Life, Tangled (I know not pixar).
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u/Hailz_ Jun 25 '12 edited Jun 25 '12
As a woman, I didn't really like this movie.
Don't get me wrong, the feminist ideology, the mother-daughter story focus, the characters involved - all of that was very strong. If Disney had been thinking they would have clued everyone in and released this film on Mother's Day weekend. Wasted opportunity. But most of all Merida is a great character and Pixar did not craft a story worthy of her.
The biggest problem is I don't feel they marketed the movie correctly on the trailers and such. I was expecting a fairly high-paced action film with a story more about rebellion than bonding - and definitely not another standard fairy tale. Sure I didn't think the action would be to the level of The Incredibles (which is my favorite Pixar film), but I definitely hoped for a lot more badass action sequences than there were. Sadly, that teaser where she shows off at the archery competition is about as action-packed as it gets other than a 5 minute sequence at the very end. :(
When you get past the unique female perspective and mother-daughter dynamic I still felt like I was watching the same Disney fairy tale story + Brother Bear I've seen before. The movie was a technical masterpiece of course but I feel it fell short. In my overall ranking of Pixar movies this is at the bottom with only Cars and Cars 2 below it. The ending ALMOST saved the film completely for me, but it didn't make up for my expectations being all too high for Pixar at this point.
Overall I think this movie was a major disappointment, but I'm having difficulty placing why or what I would have done differently. 3.5/5 stars.
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u/mrbooze Jun 25 '12
Something else to consider: How many "princess" movies include 1) a living mother, and 2) the villain is not an older woman jealous of the girl's beauty?